Confused about Pre-Pre Freeskate

[momof3chicks]

Some competitions seem to have two categories, one with Axel and one without. Some seem to lump all Pre-Pre together, Axel or not.

Is it best not to move up until you can perform an axel in competition?

[jskater49]

Some competitions seem to have two categories, one with Axel and one without. Some seem to lump all Pre-Pre together, Axel or not.

Is it best not to move up until you can perform an axel in competition?

There are more and more coaches not letting kids test pre-pre until they have an axel. WHich I think is a darn shame.

Usually at that level the axels are cheated and sloppy and I think kids with good skating skills have a chance without an axel. It's a big deal to pass your first USFS free skating test and I don't think kids should have to have to wait until they have an axel to go for that honor.

But I'm in the minority.

Joelle

[momof3chicks]

There are more and more coaches not letting kids test pre-pre until they have an axel. WHich I think is a darn shame.

Usually at that level the axels are cheated and sloppy and I think kids with good skating skills have a chance without an axel. It's a big deal to pass your first USFS free skating test and I don't think kids should have to have to wait until they have an axel to go for that honor.

But I'm in the minority.

Joelle


So you think a kid without an axel that is otherwise a good clean skater can beat a kid with an axel? My 8 yo dd has landed it several times, but isn't even close to consistent enough to put it in a program and I don't see it happening until very late this year.

[CoachPA]

So you think a kid without an axel that is otherwise a good clean skater can beat a kid with an axel?

I've seen this happen several times. In a few instances, the axel-landers were beat out by skaters with strong singles (and spins), great basic skating skills, and more refined presentation.

In regards to testing, two of my skaters just took and passed their Pre-Preliminary free skate and they are only beginning to work on their axels. Then again, these are not competitive skaters but rather USFS test track skaters who are focused more on passing their tests. These two girls are both on their Novice MIF and their Bronze/Pre-Silver. IMO, they were more than ready to take their first free skate.

[momof3chicks]

I've seen this happen several times. In a few instances, the axel-landers were beat out by skaters with strong singles (and spins), great basic skating skills, and more refined presentation.



This is what my dd has been working on (putting axel work aside a bit). I have a meeting with her coaches coming up and I know I am just a parent, but from the outside looking in, it seems to me that having good edges, good posture, strong single jumps with correct body and arm position and a good solid backspin (as well as other basic spins) would help in landing a good axel.

My dd performed her new program (first time with more difficult footwork and choreography) in her first competition this weekend. She won the gold medal and it was because I think, of the things you say. Her program was more artistic, more difficult, and her elements were cleaner than the other girls (spins, jumps, even her carriage doing back crossovers to the next thing etc).

Thanks for the input!

[Skittl1321]

I've seen this happen several times. In a few instances, the axel-landers were beat out by skaters with strong singles (and spins), great basic skating skills, and more refined presentation.

In regards to testing, two of my skaters just took and passed their Pre-Preliminary free skate and they are only beginning to work on their axels. Then again, these are not competitive skaters but rather USFS test track skaters who are focused more on passing their tests. These two girls are both on their Novice MIF and their Bronze/Pre-Silver. IMO, they were more than ready to take their first free skate.

Novice moves and pre-pre free???
Wow! I realize you said they are test track skaters, but that's amazing. Most of the pre-pre free tests I've seen are from skater who would have trouble passing Preliminary moves. Hands down someone with novice moves would be able to beat a a skater with a sloppy axel on skating skills alone.

[momof3chicks]

Novice moves and pre-pre free???
Wow! I realize you said they are test track skaters, but that's amazing. Most of the pre-pre free tests I've seen are from skater who would have trouble passing Preliminary moves. Hands down someone with novice moves would be able to beat a a skater with a sloppy axel on skating skills alone.

My dd passed preliminary moves a year ago, she is getting ready to test pre-juvenile moves (trying to get those 3 turns just right, then she is ready)- My dd is only 8 years old.

[Skittl1321]

My dd passed preliminary moves a year ago, she is getting ready to test pre-juvenile moves (trying to get those 3 turns just right, then she is ready)- My dd is only 8 years old.

That sounds a lot more reasonable to me. I think being a couple tests ahead in moves is normal, but novice moves is a world away, IMO.

I agree with jskater in that it's a huge thing to get a freeskate test, and you shouldn't need an axel to be able to go for it. But most competitions around here do divide limited pre-pre and pre-pre with axel allowed, so that might be why more coaches allow their skaters to test pre-pre right after they do the moves test.

[momof3chicks]

That sounds a lot more reasonable to me. I think being a couple tests ahead in moves is normal, but novice moves is a world away, IMO.

I agree with jskater in that it's a huge thing to get a freeskate test, and you shouldn't need an axel to be able to go for it. But most competitions around here do divide limited pre-pre and pre-pre with axel allowed, so that might be why more coaches allow their skaters to test pre-pre right after they do the moves test.

This weekends competition was small, but she was obviously the strongest skater as far as basics and IMO could improve more.

[jskater49]

In regards to testing, two of my skaters just took and passed their Pre-Preliminary free skate and they are only beginning to work on their axels. Then again, these are not competitive skaters but rather USFS test track skaters who are focused more on passing their tests. These two girls are both on their Novice MIF and their Bronze/Pre-Silver. IMO, they were more than ready to take their first free skate.

Frankly I think it would be unfair for someone who has passed their NOVICE moves to compete against pre-pre girls, whether they have axels or not.

Joelle

[LilJen]

WOW. I'm at that level (adult track) and I am nowhere near that. Then again, I saw someone today who was clearly working on pre-pre MITF (test session next week!) and was working on a double sal. I'm set to test my adult bronze moves (combo of prelim & prejuv moves) next week and should pass, but it's going to be a good long while before I can pass the FS test.

I'm no judge, but I'm one who prefers good, solid singles & spins over crappy cheated/floppy/messy axels or whatnot.

[Kim to the Max]

So, I no longer compete, however, I have passed my novice moves (passed thru juv moves and pre free as a kid, and intermediate/novice moves and pre-juv free as an adult) and my pre-juv freestyle, and am struggling with landing my axel (bad habits, mental block, the whole shebang). There are just some folks whose axel comes slower than others. When I was competing, the unwritten rule was you needed to have your axel to be competitive at preliminary...unfortunately, I think that that has moved :(

I do think that novice moves and pre-pre free is a little odd, but I would hope that the coach and parents, and skater were making right and ethical decisions. But...you can only control what you do and not what others do.

[sk8tmum]

There's a skater here that is working on Diamond Dances (Yankee Polka, etc) - but is unable to land a lutz, let alone an axel. There are a number of others who are working on strong Gold dances and Gold skills (that's the top level in our version, sort of, of MITF) - who are skating at Preliminary level, which test does not require an axel in Canada. Simply, they are strong powerful skaters who cannot master the jumps, so they focus on their strengths.

On the issue of great singles and great skating skills: my DD, who still doesn't have an axel or a double despite hundreds of falls and bruises in the quest (SHE'S GETTING SO CLOSE!!!), has regularly been placed ahead of skaters with axels because of strong skating skills, big clean single jumps and well-skated transitions and good interpretation; I've seen skaters with beautiful axels but without the rest of the package placed well behind well-rounded skaters. I see too many kids who see the axel as a holy grail, and fail to work on the other aspects (you don't see kids jumping up and down screaming, "I had a great edge on my rocker turn!" but you do see the jumping up and down for that axel) - and in the long run, it means they may fall behind and must then catch up on the rest of the package.


(carefully placing my soap box BACK in the cupboard under the stairs :lol:)

[PinkLaces]

On the issue of great singles and great skating skills: my DD, who still doesn't have an axel or a double despite hundreds of falls and bruises in the quest (SHE'S GETTING SO CLOSE!!!), has regularly been placed ahead of skaters with axels because of strong skating skills, big clean single jumps and well-skated transitions and good interpretation; I've seen skaters with beautiful axels but without the rest of the package placed well behind well-rounded skaters. I see too many kids who see the axel as a holy grail, and fail to work on the other aspects (you don't see kids jumping up and down screaming, "I had a great edge on my rocker turn!" but you do see the jumping up and down for that axel) - and in the long run, it means they may fall behind and must then catch up on the rest of the package.


My DD is in the same boat as yours...working on the axel, but not quite there yet. She skates Ltd. Pre-Pre free skate (no axel or flying spins). She tested Pre-Pre Free skate this fall, because around here they instituted 2 levels of no test: Ltd Beginner and Beginner. I think this because of the huge difference between test track Pre-Pre and competitive Pre-Pre.

DD likes skating USFS competitions better than ISI (stuck at that FS4 due to non-axel, she's got all the other elements and some of FS6), because it gives her more freedom. She just passed Preliminary MIF and has started working on Pre-Juv MIF.

I think it depends on the competitions in your area as to whether a skater tests Pre-Pre FS without the axel. Your DD's coach should have a good idea of what's best. As I stated above, my DD was sort of forced to due to the competition structure and not being able to skate up more than 1 test level.

[momof3chicks]

There's a skater here that is working on Diamond Dances (Yankee Polka, etc) - but is unable to land a lutz, let alone an axel. There are a number of others who are working on strong Gold dances and Gold skills (that's the top level in our version, sort of, of MITF) - who are skating at Preliminary level, which test does not require an axel in Canada. Simply, they are strong powerful skaters who cannot master the jumps, so they focus on their strengths.

On the issue of great singles and great skating skills: my DD, who still doesn't have an axel or a double despite hundreds of falls and bruises in the quest (SHE'S GETTING SO CLOSE!!!), has regularly been placed ahead of skaters with axels because of strong skating skills, big clean single jumps and well-skated transitions and good interpretation; I've seen skaters with beautiful axels but without the rest of the package placed well behind well-rounded skaters. I see too many kids who see the axel as a holy grail, and fail to work on the other aspects (you don't see kids jumping up and down screaming, "I had a great edge on my rocker turn!" but you do see the jumping up and down for that axel) - and in the long run, it means they may fall behind and must then catch up on the rest of the package.


(carefully placing my soap box BACK in the cupboard under the stairs :lol:)


Fortunately, my dd doesn't yet see the axel as the be all end all, but I want to take care not to put her in a situation where she doesn't have a chance to place- it might discourage her too much. On the other hand, at only 8 years old, I think it is the perfect time to go back and strengthen her basic skills, she has plenty of time to get to Juv if that is what she wants.

[cazzie]

I have heard (from her friends mum) about kids entered into the non-axel section and then doing great double loops and axels which shocked her.

My daughter feels like she's the only skater in the world without an axel. Its like a swearword in our house. She can land it in backspin but nowhere near proper landing it.

Coaches etc comment that her basic skating is her strength (she has had a mega growth spurt recently so maybe part of the problem) and she has just got her first programme with twizzles, rockers, counters and those sort of things (can't remember all their names) and a lovely biellman on some or other edge and a Y balance on an edge (she's not quite consistent enough on her i balance where the sideways held leg is held by both arms) but doesn't seem to get her axel. She's not allowed to work on doubles till she has the axel (almost entirely group coached) but has tried double sal and double loop on her own in practice and reckons she feels more comfortable with these than axel.

Granted she's had a few specatacular falls trying axel and she now feels she holds herself back, This included one where she landed sitting cross legged(on her behind) and jammed one of her blades into her crotch and could hardly pass urine after that. I'm not sure i could even get my blade into that area if I tried!

[CoachPA]

I do think that novice moves and pre-pre free is a little odd, but I would hope that the coach and parents, and skater were making right and ethical decisions. But...you can only control what you do and not what others do.

Frankly I think it would be unfair for someone who has passed their NOVICE moves to compete against pre-pre girls, whether they have axels or not.

Joelle

I completely agree with the both of you, but remember that neither of these skaters compete. Again, these are test track skaters who had been more focused on testing their dances and moves in the field than their free skate tests. We're just now starting to prepare for testing their free skates on a more consistent basis.

In the area I coach, most skaters do not test their Pre-Preliminary free skate until they are landing consistent, solid singles through the lutz. That's just seems to be the common practice here. What Skittl said earlier--about seeing skaters who would likely not pass their Pre-Preliminary MIF taking their Pre-Preliminary free skate test--would never fly with the judges in my area.

[Skittl1321]

What Skittl said earlier--about seeing skaters who would likely not pass their Pre-Preliminary MIF taking their Pre-Preliminary free skate test--would never fly with the judges in my area.

Just to clarify, I checked my original post and I had it right, so it was probably just a typo for you- they wouldn't pass their Preliminary MIF. They've already passed the pre-pre, obviously.

Kids are very different then adults though. They seem to be able to get the jumps and spins way before they have control of the edges needed for good MIF. I will likely get my Bronze FS before my Silver MITF, but after that I don't see a FS test for a long time... Kids on the other hand tend to get caught on the moves.

(Also- I did notice you said those particular novice moves level skaters didn't compete, so I wasn't questioning you.)

[momof3chicks]

Just to clarify, I checked my original post and I had it right, so it was probably just a typo for you- they wouldn't pass their Preliminary MIF. They've already passed the pre-pre, obviously.

Kids are very different then adults though. They seem to be able to get the jumps and spins way before they have control of the edges needed for good MIF. I will likely get my Bronze FS before my Silver MITF, but after that I don't see a FS test for a long time... Kids on the other hand tend to get caught on the moves.

(Also- I did notice you said those particular novice moves level skaters didn't compete, so I wasn't questioning you.)

My dd is a synchro skater, so poor edges are not tolerated by her coaches

[CoachPA]

Just to clarify, I checked my original post and I had it right, so it was probably just a typo for you- they wouldn't pass their Preliminary MIF. They've already passed the pre-pre, obviously.

Ooh, you're right! I completely misread that; sorry! :oops:

[Skittl1321]

Ooh, you're right! I completely misread that; sorry! :oops:

LOL. I just didn't want you to think test standards were so lax here kids got to FS without being ready to do the moves!

[Kim to the Max]

I completely agree with the both of you, but remember that neither of these skaters compete. Again, these are test track skaters who had been more focused on testing their dances and moves in the field than their free skate tests. We're just now starting to prepare for testing their free skates on a more consistent basis.

In the area I coach, most skaters do not test their Pre-Preliminary free skate until they are landing consistent, solid singles through the lutz. That's just seems to be the common practice here. What Skittl said earlier--about seeing skaters who would likely not pass their Pre-Preliminary MIF taking their Pre-Preliminary free skate test--would never fly with the judges in my area.

If they don't compete, then, I see no problems with it :) Seeing as for myself, I keep saying that I'm going to pass Senior moves before I land a clean axel :)

[jskater49]

If they don't compete, then, I see no problems with it :) Seeing as for myself, I keep saying that I'm going to pass Senior moves before I land a clean axel :)

Well I shouldn't talk because I'm don't think I'm ever going to test Bronze Freestyle but I hope to work toward gold moves. And I like to compete so I may still compete at pre-bronze even if I passed my gold moves (which is unlikely to happen) but I would probably still lose :-)

J

[Ellyn]

I completely agree with the both of you, but remember that neither of these skaters compete. Again, these are test track skaters who had been more focused on testing their dances and moves in the field than their free skate tests.

I don't know anything about CoachPA's students, but I see this kind of thing more often with teenagers, especially those who may be on a synchro team and put most of their solo practice time into preparing for moves tests and practicing the synchro programs. Or theatre on ice, if that option is available where they train, or some kids start out focusing on dance but continue to do some freestyle on the side or change their emphasis later.

It's just harder to learn multirevolution jumps in the first place if one doesn't start working on them until after the major growth spurt and body changes. Especially for girls (or adult women).

[Schmeck]

I don't know anything about CoachPA's students, but I see this kind of thing more often with teenagers, especially those who may be on a synchro team and put most of their solo practice time into preparing for moves tests and practicing the synchro programs. Or theatre on ice, if that option is available where they train, or some kids start out focusing on dance but continue to do some freestyle on the side or change their emphasis later.

It's just harder to learn multirevolution jumps in the first place if one doesn't start working on them until after the major growth spurt and body changes. Especially for girls (or adult women).

I agree, and here's my input:

My daughter competed in synchro for many years - she's passed her junior MITF, just told me her coach wants her to test her senior MITF this summer, is working on Bronze dances (just started testing ice dance this past year or so?), and has only taken her pre-pre freestyle test. Yes, she's very lopsided that way, but was recruited by colleges for her synchro, got into MIT because of her skating/synchro (along with awesome grades/SAT, but it was the synchro that clinched it) and can't do an axel. Actually, she won't try one, they scare her she says! She can almost land a double flip (flip is her best jump, huge and high) but she's a tall girl for figure skating, and didn't start skating seriously until she was 12 yrs old.

I want her to test some freestyle, but she refuses. She's a clockwise spinner, and had to learn to jump and spin the "other way" for synchro, so her spins are pretty weak. I think she'd get the jumps called (either direction) before her spins. Right now she's just mixed up on which way is her 'strong' way!

I sometimes regret that we started her off in gymnastics when she was 5. She didn't have a group skating lesson until she was 8, or a private lesson until she was almost 13. She's 17 now, and has done so much in only 4-5 years.

[Isk8NYC]

(carefully placing my soap box BACK in the cupboard under the stairs :lol:)I didn't know we had stairs here. Is Daniel Radcliffe thereabouts? lol j/k

I understood what CoachPA meant, that her student was testing MITF but not competing in the low-level freestyle.

Freestyle's not for everyone. I knew several teens who were pretty high up in MITF because it made them stronger in synchro and dance.

[momof3chicks]

I agree, and here's my input:

My daughter competed in synchro for many years - she's passed her junior MITF, just told me her coach wants her to test her senior MITF this summer, is working on Bronze dances (just started testing ice dance this past year or so?), and has only taken her pre-pre freestyle test. Yes, she's very lopsided that way, but was recruited by colleges for her synchro, got into MIT because of her skating/synchro (along with awesome grades/SAT, but it was the synchro that clinched it) and can't do an axel. Actually, she won't try one, they scare her she says! She can almost land a double flip (flip is her best jump, huge and high) but she's a tall girl for figure skating, and didn't start skating seriously until she was 12 yrs old.

I want her to test some freestyle, but she refuses. She's a clockwise spinner, and had to learn to jump and spin the "other way" for synchro, so her spins are pretty weak. I think she'd get the jumps called (either direction) before her spins. Right now she's just mixed up on which way is her 'strong' way!

I sometimes regret that we started her off in gymnastics when she was 5. She didn't have a group skating lesson until she was 8, or a private lesson until she was almost 13. She's 17 now, and has done so much in only 4-5 years.

Hey, I think synchro is GREAT! My 8 yo is still spanning both worlds, she too is a tall girl. Her 14 yo sister is 6 fto 2 inches tall, so I am a bit worried about the younger getting like that and how it will affect this sport she so loves.

I have her in both on purpose- only very few are very successful in freestyle, but she is already a fantastic synchro skater and can keep going with that if freestyle doesn't turn out to be for her

[blue111moon]

To answer the original thread-starting question, the reason there are axel and no-axel divisions in Pre Pre competitions is because, before USFS instituted the Well-Balanced Program requirements, they decided to allow axels in Pre Pre competitions as the highest jump allowed. (Note: there was a storm of protest about this but to no avil.)

At the time there were a lot of skaters who'd already tested Pre Pre moves and Free who didn't have axels who felt they were being shut out of Pre Pre because of that. So organizers of local comps split the Pre Pre group into axel and no axel to level out the playing field a little.

There are also some competitions that split Preliminary along similar lines or even into three groups: no axel no doubles, axel but no doubles and the standard Prelim that allows axels and up to two doubles. It's all to give skaters at those most common levels places to compete against their peers.

At the competitions who do split the levels, the judges are generally instructed to take deductions if skaters perform elements that are not allowed in that group. The problem there is that a skater who does an axel in a no-axel group generally has enough skills to make up for the points deducted and can still medal, which doesn't seem fair to the skaters who followed the rules.

Hard-nose that I am, I've lobbied that skaters who do elements expressly forbidden should be disqualified or placed last no matter how good the rest of their skating is, but I've been told that that's too harsh and will most likely emotionally scar the child for life. :)

[Isk8NYC]

I think that if you do an axel in an event where the title actually SAYS "NO AXELS" you're okay DQ'ing them, lol.

A penalty is enough for other instances where they do something that's above the restricted level. I'm thinking of Basic Skills skaters though - they're working on a flip during lessons, but their program only has a half-flip ...oops... they did a single by mistake.

[FSWer]

There are more and more coaches not letting kids test pre-pre until they have an axel. WHich I think is a darn shame.

Usually at that level the axels are cheated and sloppy and I think kids with good skating skills have a chance without an axel. It's a big deal to pass your first USFS free skating test and I don't think kids should have to have to wait until they have an axel to go for that honor.

But I'm in the minority.

Joelle


Ok...I'm not sure I'm actually following. But I'll put in my input. As far as kids and other skaters needing an Axel (or for that matter ANYTHING) to move up. I think they should also be looking at how GIFTED each kid is. If a kid is not even gifted enough (or for that matter not even CAPABLE at all to even ever DO an Axel. Or any other move. Then they should be just moving them up for what they CAN do at that time,and if the kid or skater get's an Axel or any other move in the long-run. Let them get it at their own pace. Just like everyone else...so skaters learn quicker then others. Some may never learn moves. BTW. what's the difference between Pre and Pre-Pre?

[Isk8NYC]

Pre-Prel MITF:
Forward Perimeter Stroking
Basic Consecutive Edges
Forward Right and Left Spirals
Waltz Eight

Prel MITF:
Forward and Backward Crossovers - Circles
Consecutive Inside and Outside Spirals
Forward Power Threes
Alternating Forward 3-Turns
Alternating Backward Crossovers to Backward Outside Edges

Pre-Prel Freestyle:
Waltz Jump
Salchow
Toe Loop
1/2 Flip
1/2 Lutz
1 Foot Spin

Prel Freestyle: (1:30 Program Required)
Waltz Jump
Salchow
Loop
Flip
Waltz Jump-Toe Loop / Jump Combination
1 ft Upright spin
1 ft Backspin
Sit Spin
Connecting Steps and Extras

[Skittl1321]

Thanks for posting that. I thought that pre-pre needed higher jumps than that. I thought the half jumps were all required as singles for the test.

[momof3chicks]

I think that if you do an axel in an event where the title actually SAYS "NO AXELS" you're okay DQ'ing them, lol.

A penalty is enough for other instances where they do something that's above the restricted level. I'm thinking of Basic Skills skaters though - they're working on a flip during lessons, but their program only has a half-flip ...oops... they did a single by mistake.

My 9 yo was the victim of this issue in the new test track. She did beginner- where only upright spins, certain combinations and half jumps and salchows ONLY allowed. There were several girls who did more- camel spins, sit spins, illegal jump combinations (loops etc). and my dd ended up 7th out of 8 even with a very very good clean skate. Some of the judges even placed the kids doing that stuff in 1st place.

My dd was very upset about how that played out and rightly so.

[Isk8NYC]

I understand what you're saying, but I meant students making an honest mistake in the LTS levels. I wasn't referring to the Test Track events.

[momof3chicks]

I understand what you're saying, but I meant students making an honest mistake in the LTS levels. I wasn't referring to the Test Track events.

I understood that, these were definitely events where the coaches must not have known I guess. Also, I think that the fact that each competition seems to be able to adjust the rules makes it challenging for all