Getting rid of the toe underpush on foward Crossovers

[ibreakhearts66]

Hi everybody.
This is my first time asking a coaching question on here. Anyways, I've started teaching more group lessons at my rink, and was wondering if anyone had advice on getting rid of the toe underpush in forward crossovers. It's something I see a lot, but haven't quite figured out how best to correct. I've tried telling skaters to think more about pushing sideways on the underpush, and also telling them (for now) to not think about pushing at all. Except for a few rare skaters, this doesn't seem to help. Any tips/exercises would be extremely appreciated.

Thanks!

[katz in boots]

By toe-push, do you mean using the toe-pick?

If so, the advice I give is to think of the heel always being the last thing to leave the ice. It isn't, of course, but just thinking of it that way means your toe-pick certainly won't be.

Also probably more knee bend would help most skaters. I'm not a coach though.

[Bunny Hop]

Also probably more knee bend would help most skaters. I'm not a coach though.Also not a coach, but this is an issue I have big problems with, but am now beginning to more consistently correct. More knee bend does seem to be the answer in my case - it means I'm in a much better position to not catch the toe.

[LWalsh]

This always works for me. Take the students to the wall. Have them face the boards and practice "crossovers" along the boards with their feet perpendicular to the boards. (pick foot up and over the skating foot, repeat) They need to feel that the motion is sideways not forward. Once they get that feeling they won't toe push.

Lwalsh

[CoachPA]

This is actually quite common in skaters just learning forward crossovers. You'll encounter this issue a lot as a coach, which is why it's so important to be able not only to identify what the problem is, but be able to correct it as well.

Sometimes skaters don't understand that they actually have to push off their edges in crossovers and, as obvious as it seems, that crossovers have two pushes. Although I'm sure you've told your skaters this, I'd continue to emphasize and demonstrate this--that the first stroke uses the inside edge and the second, or the push under, uses the outside edge.

You may need to start with the basics here. Be sure to explain the differences between inside and outside edges, even if you believe the kids know the difference. Some will tell you they know the difference, but when asked to skate on one of these edges, they are completely lost.

As for exercises, I use the following in my stroking class. The kids generally don't like it and will complain because it's rather difficult, except for those skaters who already have strong crossovers with proper pushing techniques, but believe me--they'll learn to push properly! :lol:

Have your skaters form a large circle and cross their feet as though they've already done the first push and crossed (like in a regular crossover). The foot used for the second push should be on the ice. Also have them focus on knee and ankle bend; rising up and locking the leg makes it nearly impossible to push from anything but the toe.

Tell your skaters that they cannot uncross their feet or use the first push of the crossover. This will require them to use only the push under to generate speed and in order to actually move, they will need to use the outside edge. Have them push under but not uncross, resulting in a series of outside edge pushes.

Do not expect a great deal of speed; however, the skaters should be moving. Because of the difficult of this exercise, you'll probably see some frustration and very mechanical efforts at first. That's okay, especially if the skaters are putting forth the effort to push correctly.

And, don't be afraid to ask your fellow coaches for suggestions. I know that many newer coaches are intimidated to ask for help on what appears like seemingly simple technical errors, but asking for advice is one of the best ways to develop your coaching techniques. Remember, even the most experienced coaches had to start somewhere.

[Audryb]

When I was learning crossovers my coach told me to try to actually lift up my toes inside my boot as I pushed under. That really helped me to push with the blade instead of the toe pick.

[Mrs Redboots]

My coaches have always said to think of rolling the ankle over - and no matter how much I do, they want more.....

[SkatEn]

My coach will exaggerate my actions, for example in this case, he would really use the toe and then I'll be like, okay, that looks very wrong. Then he'll show me the right way to do it.

Some people have needs for vocal instruction while others want a visual demonstrations. Some need a little of both, like me.

Coach emphasized the use of the WHOLE blade, same with normal stroking, for crossovers. He made me do stroking just to get the feeling right, and then went on to crossovers with the feel of the blades in mind.

If you use the stationary crossover method to teach beginners that it is cross over and not cross in front (you know, the one that you cross at the boards or on a straight line), be mindful that some skaters leave their toepick on the ice as they cross. I think that would be because of lack of balance and/or knee bend. This habit may translate over to the actual crossovers.

Again, I'm just a student... just my observations!:P

Good luck! When I was helping others with basics, I sometimes feel like pulling my hair out!:D

[Query]

Let me first tell you what works for my own skating, rather than for teaching.

It is a flexibility issue for me. It is hard for me to keep the heel down, which means I have to work at it. If I lean forwards when I skate, as many novices do, the flexibility issue only gets worse.

I have to feel like I'm only using my heel on a lot of things to compensate for lack of flexibility. If you tell them to try to only touch and push with the heel, and that it should be a stretch, it may help the people with flexibility issues.

A coach of my acquaintance has students do crossovers without forward motion first. She gets them to do it in a fairly extreme style, - feet touching together, next to each other, then feet touching together next to each other crossed over (not out in front), repeat, all moving sideways along a straight line. Since you are standing still at first, no pushes are needed.

Oops. I see SkatEn already talked about that exercise, or something close to it. My bad.

There are some big advantages to this method. It looks very simple. Big long explanations are ignored by most kids learning moves. But simple motions they can copy are easy. Plus, it is harder to balance forward if the crossed foot has to touch next to the other foot. To refine it, have them look sideways, the way they are going.

Once they have mastered that, she starts going forward too, adding pushes to the outside of the circle, to push them towards the center of the circle. The sideways look naturally becomes a look towards the center of the circle too. Because it gives them a long sideways push, it is a pretty efficient way to move. I told them it was a way to get more power and speed, so they would look better, and demonstrated going very fast. (The same idea works with backwards crosses, except for the complication of leaving one foot on the ice.)

Have you noticed how many people have trouble trusting their balance on outside edges? Even some of the kids doing ISI or USFSA Freestyle 1 or 2 jumps, with private coaches, don't balance all the way onto outside edges, even on crossovers. Their coaches must value rapid progress more than clean technique. My understanding: a true crossover goes past a normal outside edge, and over-balances to the point they would topple over if they didn't put the crossed foot down to stop the fall. I think some try to balance forwards instead of centered so they don't fall sideways. This is much too complicated an idea at first, but you can eventually try explaining the cross as a way to not fall off the outside edge, so they can trust their outside edge more. But for some kids, that is way too abstract an idea.

Good luck. Try the non-forward or backward motion side next to side thing first. It's simple and visual.

[dbny]

Here two exercises I use for this problem:


Crossover without picking up the crossing foot. This is really hard at first and you may have to spot the student, but it forces the underpush from the FO edge.
Do a crossover and keep both feet on the ice at the same time. Make sure the crossing knee is bent and the under knee straight. Now have the student remove the under foot by lifting it off the ice with the outside of the ankle facing the ice and without rising up.

[ukmum]

This is actually quite common in skaters just learning forward crossovers. You'll encounter this issue a lot as a coach, which is why it's so important to be able not only to identify what the problem is, but be able to correct it as well.

Sometimes skaters don't understand that they actually have to push off their edges in crossovers and, as obvious as it seems, that crossovers have two pushes. Although I'm sure you've told your skaters this, I'd continue to emphasize and demonstrate this--that the first stroke uses the inside edge and the second, or the push under, uses the outside edge.

You may need to start with the basics here. Be sure to explain the differences between inside and outside edges, even if you believe the kids know the difference. Some will tell you they know the difference, but when asked to skate on one of these edges, they are completely lost.

As for exercises, I use the following in my stroking class. The kids generally don't like it and will complain because it's rather difficult, except for those skaters who already have strong crossovers with proper pushing techniques, but believe me--they'll learn to push properly! :lol:

Have your skaters form a large circle and cross their feet as though they've already done the first push and crossed (like in a regular crossover). The foot used for the second push should be on the ice. Also have them focus on knee and ankle bend; rising up and locking the leg makes it nearly impossible to push from anything but the toe.

Tell your skaters that they cannot uncross their feet or use the first push of the crossover. This will require them to use only the push under to generate speed and in order to actually move, they will need to use the outside edge. Have them push under but not uncross, resulting in a series of outside edge pushes.

Do not expect a great deal of speed; however, the skaters should be moving. Because of the difficult of this exercise, you'll probably see some frustration and very mechanical efforts at first. That's okay, especially if the skaters are putting forth the effort to push correctly.

And, don't be afraid to ask your fellow coaches for suggestions. I know that many newer coaches are intimidated to ask for help on what appears like seemingly simple technical errors, but asking for advice is one of the best ways to develop your coaching techniques. Remember, even the most experienced coaches had to start somewhere.

My daughters coach uses this method and god it works! Yes they all hate it (and say so sometimes) but it does work and I have tried it myself. My own coach noticed the difference after I had been trying it. I also think that one of the problems with forward crossovers is doing them so slowly that people don't feel enough securty in their edges so they cheat by toe pushing. This was definately a problem that I had and this trick eliminates that insecurity as you have both feet on the ice.

[Skate@Delaware]

I will have to try that exercise! I try to think "push through the heel" when my crossovers get sloppy, I think using this exercise will help neaten things up.

[kayskate]

I have them hold the gliding position of the understroke w both blades on the ice. Can't do this w toe pick in the ice. Then I have them "lift it clean" and hold that position. Works well.

Kay