Help me phrase a tough conversation with a coach please...

[momof3chicks]

My 8 yo dd is a strong figure skater. She is already working on pre juv MIF, is skating this upcoming season on a strong juvie synchro team, and is competing individual at the no-test freeskate level. I know I am her mother and most likely biased to a certain degree, but I feel like she has the strength, coordination and talent to be a good skater.

She has been skating with a 2nd coach (all cleared with her first coach) and I am seeing now that she needs more discipline and someone to be tougher on her than the original coach- this coach does that and while she hasn't been with her long enough to permanantly change some of her less desireable habits (floppy arms etc) I see she clearly has the ability, with the right coaching to do it and to improve some things and in a relatively short time frame. I'd like to shift to the other coach as her primary freestyle coach (more time) and have the original coach be more MIF and Dance (for synchro).

The original coach will hate this - she tends to lose a lot of her talented freestyle skaters. She has taken my dd pretty far, and I still want her to coach my other dd as primary. But I feel like for the time and money we and my dd spends, she should be coming along more on her freestyle skills. I have seen other kids with similar talent do so.

Help me have this conversation and preserve the relationship.

[slusher]

All I can say, it must be Spring, the parents are restless.

Ask for a meeting with your entire coaching team, both coaches together, maybe with or without your daughter depending how mature she is. Ask for a progress report and a yearly plan.

[Query]

I think Slusher picked up on something very important. Talk to your daughter first, both about switching, and about using a more disciplined approach. She may have strong feelings on these things.

Sounds like the original coach has been pretty successful with your DD. Maybe you could discuss using a more disciplined approach with said coach.

And make sure the second coach has time for more lessons before bringing this potential ill-feeling-generator with the second coach.

Not being a coach, I think you have a complete legal and ethical right to switch partially or completely. Your original coach has a complete legal and ethical right to keep or drop your DD based on what you do.

BTW I know of one case where an original coach got mad and dropped another family member when one student switched, so consider that too.

And BTW, it wouldn't be surprising if your current coach reads this board, has read your message, and knows who wrote it. The internet is not a private place. :roll:

[dbny]

with the second coach.

Not being a coach, I think you have a complete legal and ethical right to switch partially or completely.

Being a coach or not has nothing to do with it. People have the right to spend their money any way they want. Coaches do not own their students.

I don't think I would want a meeting of the two coaches, as Slusher suggested, because I can't see that as being anything but awkward. I would, however, talk with the primary coach about your concerns before taking any other steps. I would not bring the other coach into it.

As a coach, I can tell you that the only thing that ever upset me was the time a parent switched a student from me without any discussion at all. The mom had been bringing the child, and would bury her head in her laptop. She showed absolutely no interest in her child's skating. The student, about 11 yrs old, made all the phone calls about her lessons. Meanwhile, she was so difficult that I concluded that I was a highly paid babysitter, and that I should do my best to keep her happy while getting as much effort out of her as possible. I could have been much tougher with her, but she resisted. She was having weekly hour long lessons, which were torture for me. One day the dad showed up with her. I had wanted to give her an extra 10 minutes because that day she successfully begged a skate around just talking, but at the ice cut, the dad grabbed her, paid me, and left without a word. The next week, the student called me and said she had to get a different coach because her dad said I talked too much! I was sorry to lose the money, but not too sad about losing the student. Still, the overall feeling I have about it is that the dad is an extremely rude person.

[vesperholly]

Sounds like the original coach has been pretty successful with your DD. Maybe you could discuss using a more disciplined approach with said coach.
ITA. It's only fair to give the original coach a chance to improve her methods. If this coach is losing all her talented freestylers, it's probably due in part to no parents telling her why they switch.

I think most reasonable people would respond well to a careful criticism. Perhaps you could say something along the lines of, "I see that my daughter responds better when coaches and teachers are stricter with her. While she enjoys your teaching, I as a parent would like you to be a little more structured with her, so she can get the most out of her skating."

I would stay away from mentioning the other coach specifically. That could put original coach on the defensive and feel that she is being compared. And don't give her specifics on how to be strict with your daughter, let her figure it out or wait for her ask you. It's important to be clear that you're giving her feedback without bossing her around. Outline your expectations and give her a chance to change. Maybe set a time period with goals to be met. If she and your daughter don't meet those goals, then I think you can switch her coaching arrangement with a clear conscience and also without insulting the coach.

[momof3chicks]

I think Slusher picked up on something very important. Talk to your daughter first, both about switching, and about using a more disciplined approach. She may have strong feelings on these things.

She is 8 years old and really doesn't know what is best for her. I also do not feel comfortable saying anything before talking to the coach- she is not old enough to know to keep it to herself

Sounds like the original coach has been pretty successful with your DD. Maybe you could discuss using a more disciplined approach with said coach.

She has to a certain degree, through the end of basic skills (FS 6) but there has been a serious stall in her progress.

And make sure the second coach has time for more lessons before bringing this potential ill-feeling-generator with the second coach.

I was pretty sure this would not be ethical to ask the new coach before telling the old one you are going to do that.

Not being a coach, I think you have a complete legal and ethical right to switch partially or completely. Your original coach has a complete legal and ethical right to keep or drop your DD based on what you do.

Yes, she definitely does, and if she drops her altogether, that tells me a lot as far as I am concerned.

BTW I know of one case where an original coach got mad and dropped another family member when one student switched, so consider that too.

I realize that could happen and if it does, I'll deal with it - again, that says alot about said coach, and not IMO positive

And BTW, it wouldn't be surprising if your current coach reads this board, has read your message, and knows who wrote it. The internet is not a private place. I realize that:roll:

See my comments

[momof3chicks]

ITA. It's only fair to give the original coach a chance to improve her methods. If this coach is losing all her talented freestylers, it's probably due in part to no parents telling her why they switch.

I think most reasonable people would respond well to a careful criticism. Perhaps you could say something along the lines of, "I see that my daughter responds better when coaches and teachers are stricter with her. While she enjoys your teaching, I as a parent would like you to be a little more structured with her, so she can get the most out of her skating."

I would stay away from mentioning the other coach specifically. That could put original coach on the defensive and feel that she is being compared. And don't give her specifics on how to be strict with your daughter, let her figure it out or wait for her ask you. It's important to be clear that you're giving her feedback without bossing her around. Outline your expectations and give her a chance to change. Maybe set a time period with goals to be met. If she and your daughter don't meet those goals, then I think you can switch her coaching arrangement with a clear conscience and also without insulting the coach.


We have already been there, and I really don't think this particular person is able to change that much. I just don't think higher level freestyle is her strong suit- there is nothing wrong with that. I (and other parents I have known) have been honest all along.

[momof3chicks]

As a coach, I can tell you that the only thing that ever upset me was the time a parent switched a student from me without any discussion at all. The mom had been bringing the child, and would bury her head in her laptop. She showed absolutely no interest in her child's skating. The student, about 11 yrs old, made all the phone calls about her lessons. Meanwhile, she was so difficult that I concluded that I was a highly paid babysitter, and that I should do my best to keep her happy while getting as much effort out of her as possible. I could have been much tougher with her, but she resisted. She was having weekly hour long lessons, which were torture for me. One day the dad showed up with her. I had wanted to give her an extra 10 minutes because that day she successfully begged a skate around just talking, but at the ice cut, the dad grabbed her, paid me, and left without a word. The next week, the student called me and said she had to get a different coach because her dad said I talked too much! I was sorry to lose the money, but not too sad about losing the student. Still, the overall feeling I have about it is that the dad is an extremely rude person.

That does sound rude, very rude. I don't want it to be like that, and I don't have anything against her current coach, I just think she has different needs right now.

[slusher]

And BTW, it wouldn't be surprising if your current coach reads this board, has read your message, and knows who wrote it. The internet is not a private place.

Agreed. This coach isn't satisfying your needs, so that's between you and your coach which is where the discussion needs to be. Ask for a meeting and get as much input as possible.

[momof3chicks]

Agreed. This coach isn't satisfying your needs, so that's between you and your coach which is where the discussion needs to be. Ask for a meeting and get as much input as possible.

Well I know that, I already have the time set up to chat. I was just unclear, as my dd is already working with the two coaches, how to handle it where I am not really getting rid of anyone, but shifting who is primary for her freestyle work.

[doubletoe]

In addition to mentioning the strictness/structure factor, you might save the coach's feelings a little by suggesting that your daughter's responsiveness to the other coach could be partially due to the fact that the other coach is new. Sometimes it's good just to mix things up a little because student and teacher get into a rut.
I actually used the "just needed a change because I was in a rut" excuse when I left my old coach. I would have told him the truth if he had been the kind of person who could listen and learn from it instead of blaming and complaining, but he is a bit immature. . . and he also loses a lot of his young students once they reach Preliminary or Pre-Juv.

[momof3chicks]

In addition to mentioning the strictness/structure factor, you might save the coach's feelings a little by suggesting that your daughter's responsiveness to the other coach could be partially due to the fact that the other coach is new. Sometimes it's good just to mix things up a little because student and teacher get into a rut.
I actually used the "just needed a change because I was in a rut" excuse when I left my old coach. I would have told him the truth if he had been the kind of person who could listen and learn from it instead of blaming and complaining, but he is a bit immature. . . and he also loses a lot of his young students once they reach Preliminary or Pre-Juv.


Yes, I thought of that, and in a way, it is true. She has been with this coach from a young age and is almost too close to her. Unfortunately, I don't think this person is much for listening either, I expect an adverse reaction but after my husband and I talked it is too much money and time not to do what is right for the kid.

[ukmum]

I'm a uk mum so things may be different here.

My daughters coach has seen quite a bit of switching but for the opposite reason as she is seen as being too strict.

I guess the first thing is to talk to your daughters current main coach. However you phrase it it will be difficult but remember the coach is paid for a service. If you are not getting the service you want then it is the same as any contractor. The difference is this is also about your daughters feelings. My 8 year old hears critism of her coach from others and is a strong defender of her. They have a relationship and it is important to her. Your daughter may feel the same.

My daughter has an "I decide when" stance with no lessons booked without discussion with her, no change to schedule etc without discussion with her.

It might be worth having a conversation with your daughter about her skating goals which might give an indication about whether you need to move the coaching emphasis.

Coaches don't generally seem to mind you moving so long as you are open about it. They can be a competitive bunch!

Also consider if this coach has taken your child this far (I don't understand your system so can't comment on how far she has come) it might be worth considering how far she might go with the current coach and how her style may change.

At my rink several parents moved from my daughters coach because they didn't feel the kids were making enough progress through the levels (at around NISA 3/4) and later the kids that didn't move overtook them by miles.

Just make sure you have the discussion and be polite about it and I don't think it will be a problem. Good luck and happy skating.

[ukmum]

I forgot to add ...

You say you think the reltionship may be too close. This is a concern for any paernt. What makes you feel that? It may be that this is the real reason for your discomfort, and one that should not be ignored.

[dbny]

If you are not getting the service you want then it is the same as any contractor. The difference is this is also about your daughters feelings. My 8 year old hears critism of her coach from others and is a strong defender of her. They have a relationship and it is important to her. Your daughter may feel the same.

ITA. Of course your daughter isn't old enough to "know what's best for her," but her feelings are important and can certainly affect her effort.

Coaches don't generally seem to mind you moving so long as you are open about it.


Very true. It was quite hurtful to me when a long time student asked if I minded her having lessons with someone else also, and then just switched without saying anything else. I know that it was not intended to hurt, but so what!

[momof3chicks]

I forgot to add ...

You say you think the reltionship may be too close. This is a concern for any paernt. What makes you feel that? It may be that this is the real reason for your discomfort, and one that should not be ignored.

I don't mean in a bad way, I mean just that she sees her as much as a friend as a teacher and responds to her in the same way she might respond if I ask her to do something.

[momof3chicks]

ITA. Of course your daughter isn't old enough to "know what's best for her," but her feelings are important and can certainly affect her effort.





I agree that her feelings are valid and important. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But I don't want her to know about the possible change and say something until I have talked with her coach- I am not sure how to prevent that for sure with an 8 year old.

[ukmum]

Of course this depends very much on the individual 8 year old. I had an issue where the coach told us and daughter that she has serious potential and I asked her not to repeat it in case it caused tensions. She hasn't said a word about it!

Only you know your daughter, talk to her and she may surprise you. IT doesn't have to be a discusion about switching, just what she wants from skating.

I would say that a child who is happy with their coach is the most important thing. Sometimes a stricter coach is right for your child, sometimes they will make more progress long term with a less strict coach.

What is it that they aren't being strict about? Is it one particular thing? My daughters coach often chooses to ignore some things for a while as she doesn't want to discourage my daughter when she is doing well in other areas. My daughter had a problem with arm positions, coach addressed it for a while but then left it alone and cam eback to it later. The second time it worked and has made no end of difference.

I think you need to talk to your daughter and the main coach or you will end up getting frustrated.

[momof3chicks]

Of course this depends very much on the individual 8 year old. I had an issue where the coach told us and daughter that she has serious potential and I asked her not to repeat it in case it caused tensions. She hasn't said a word about it!

Only you know your daughter, talk to her and she may surprise you. IT doesn't have to be a discusion about switching, just what she wants from skating.

I would say that a child who is happy with their coach is the most important thing. Sometimes a stricter coach is right for your child, sometimes they will make more progress long term with a less strict coach.

What is it that they aren't being strict about? Is it one particular thing? My daughters coach often chooses to ignore some things for a while as she doesn't want to discourage my daughter when she is doing well in other areas. My daughter had a problem with arm positions, coach addressed it for a while but then left it alone and cam eback to it later. The second time it worked and has made no end of difference.

I think you need to talk to your daughter and the main coach or you will end up getting frustrated.

She hasn't made much progress if any since late summer last year IMO. She still is sloppy with her jumps (arms all over the place and poor hold on landings), her spins have always been good, but to me, seem to be deteriorating rather than getting better- again poor arm position, looking down, etc. and she also hasn't learned anything new to say well they are working on that.

I pay too much and she spends too much time on the ice to not see more improvement to me. The thing is, to me, it is the little things (like the arms, proper body position, proper landing) that is holding her back from doing more and bigger moves so it should no longer be ignored.

[Tennisany1]

I have just read this thread - life has been a bit busy - and this sounds like exactly where we were last year. My dd is the same age, had a long time wonderful coach, close relationship, but had plateaued and was really making no progress. I had a long talk with my dd about what she wanted from skating, how she thought she was progressing, what she liked and disliked about her sessions, how her skating coach compared to other teacher figures in her life. At 8 years old she really surprised me with her insight into what was happening around her. At first any suggestion of change really upset her, but by the end of the conversation it was her suggestion that we look at changing. I will make it very clear that her original coach is a wonderful person and a fabulous coach, it was just that dd was too comfortable, had got into a rut and was losing interest. The change was difficult but we were very lucky that the original coach was extremely professional and helpful with the switch.

I wouldn't discount your dd's input. At 8 she should be mature enough to be able to discuss the situation with you, but you should have the discussions with the coaches when your daughter is not around. Most importantly, speak with the current primary FIRST. When I spoke with my dd's coach I explained the situation as I had discussed with my daughter and told the coach what our decision was. Yes, it is difficult, but I really think it is better to be honest, especially if you have already spoken about your concerns before. Keep in mind that you may not be able to keep him or her as a secondary coach either because she may not want to or the primary coach may not want it. Once you have settled things with coach #1 then speak with coach #2 about more lessons. I would also, at this point, set up a meeting with the new coach for couple of months from now to discuss goals and progress. This will give the new coach a bit of time to work with your daughter before you sit down together.

Good luck. Switching coaches is never easy.

[momof3chicks]

I have just read this thread - life has been a bit busy - and this sounds like exactly where we were last year. My dd is the same age, had a long time wonderful coach, close relationship, but had plateaued and was really making no progress. I had a long talk with my dd about what she wanted from skating, how she thought she was progressing, what she liked and disliked about her sessions, how her skating coach compared to other teacher figures in her life. At 8 years old she really surprised me with her insight into what was happening around her. At first any suggestion of change really upset her, but by the end of the conversation it was her suggestion that we look at changing. I will make it very clear that her original coach is a wonderful person and a fabulous coach, it was just that dd was too comfortable, had got into a rut and was losing interest. The change was difficult but we were very lucky that the original coach was extremely professional and helpful with the switch.

I wouldn't discount your dd's input. At 8 she should be mature enough to be able to discuss the situation with you, but you should have the discussions with the coaches when your daughter is not around. Most importantly, speak with the current primary FIRST. When I spoke with my dd's coach I explained the situation as I had discussed with my daughter and told the coach what our decision was. Yes, it is difficult, but I really think it is better to be honest, especially if you have already spoken about your concerns before. Keep in mind that you may not be able to keep him or her as a secondary coach either because she may not want to or the primary coach may not want it. Once you have settled things with coach #1 then speak with coach #2 about more lessons. I would also, at this point, set up a meeting with the new coach for couple of months from now to discuss goals and progress. This will give the new coach a bit of time to work with your daughter before you sit down together.

Good luck. Switching coaches is never easy.

Thank you, this is very helpful. I have a meeting with her coach tonight (dd will not be there) to discuss. I hope she will be willing to stay as secondary coach, my dd really does love her and it would be a shame if she wasn't willing. It is good to hear from someone else with a similar situation.

[dbny]

I had a long talk with my dd about what she wanted from skating, how she thought she was progressing, what she liked and disliked about her sessions, how her skating coach compared to other teacher figures in her life.

I think this is extremely important. Sometimes we want things for our children that they do not want for themselves, or that they did want, and no longer want. At 10, my younger DD wanted nothing more than skating every minute of her life. Just when I started to be concerned about that and brought up the idea that she could go to college, have a career and teach skating on the side, she responded with "Of course, Ma, I don't want to spend my entire life skating!" So I had not realized that her goals had changed. They changed again later, and she quit skating, which was hard for me, but right for her.

You really need to be sure of what your daughter wants. It's possible that she isn't making progress because her heart isn't in it to the same extent as previously.

[teresa]

I would talk to my child first. Is she happy with her coach and skating? Skating means different things to different people. Find out where she is. Second, if she wants more from skating talk to the current coach first. You can't expect someone to understand your goals if you don't talk to them. Then, if your not satisfied it will be easier to change. Good coaches teach good technique, but only a skater can develop skills with practice. I've seen a parent change coaches so her child can get skills, only to find out the child doesn't have the drive to do the work. Students earn skills, coaches don't give them. Good luck.

teresa

[katz in boots]

I would talk to my child first. Is she happy with her coach and skating? Skating means different things to different people. Find out where she is. Second, if she wants more from skating talk to the current coach first. You can't expect someone to understand your goals if you don't talk to them. Then, if your not satisfied it will be easier to change. Good coaches teach good technique, but only a skater can develop skills with practice. I've seen a parent change coaches so her child can get skills, only to find out the child doesn't have the drive to do the work. Students earn skills, coaches don't give them. Good luck.

teresa

I totally agree with this viewpoint. First talk to the child and find out how she thinks/feels about her progress, before you even consider talking to her primary coach. If DD is keen to change, I'd have a quiet word with the prospective new primary coach to make sure she can offer suitable lesson times, before talking to the current primary. Otherwise your DD may be left without a coach at all.

[momof3chicks]

I totally agree with this viewpoint. First talk to the child and find out how she thinks/feels about her progress, before you even consider talking to her primary coach. If DD is keen to change, I'd have a quiet word with the prospective new primary coach to make sure she can offer suitable lesson times, before talking to the current primary. Otherwise your DD may be left without a coach at all.

I talked with my dd, telling her what I was thinking of doing. At first she bristled a tad (because she loves her current coach) but as I explained more, she began to understand she wasn't losing that coach, that we were just trying to help her with different roles. She agreed once we got talking that indeed she hadn't made a lot of progress and she wasn't thrilled with that. She actually did understand more than I expected.

So, I did have a discussion with her coach and she took it much better than I expected. She understood what I was saying and agreed with it. So, I didn't need to worry so much apparently.

[twokidsskatemom]

This is another point of view. I think parents and skaters expect progress and dont understand that with young skaters it takes awhile longer. Body Awareness comes with maturity, not just because you have skated for a long time.Then people change coaches because there is no progress and 6 months later you see them and they are the same.
good luck with whatver choice you make.

[momof3chicks]

This is another point of view. I think parents and skaters expect progress and dont understand that with young skaters it takes awhile longer. Body Awareness comes with maturity, not just because you have skated for a long time.Then people change coaches because there is no progress and 6 months later you see them and they are the same.
good luck with whatver choice you make.

I realize it takes time, but I have seen improvement in my dd in this regard just from the couple of months she spent with the different coach who puts more emphasis on this. Alot of her original coaches students all skate kind of like my dd (a bit unraveled) even the older ones.

[Tennisany1]

I talked with my dd, telling her what I was thinking of doing. At first she bristled a tad (because she loves her current coach) but as I explained more, she began to understand she wasn't losing that coach, that we were just trying to help her with different roles. She agreed once we got talking that indeed she hadn't made a lot of progress and she wasn't thrilled with that. She actually did understand more than I expected.

So, I did have a discussion with her coach and she took it much better than I expected. She understood what I was saying and agreed with it. So, I didn't need to worry so much apparently.

I'm glad you discussed things with your daughter. I think we often don't give our kids enough credit when it comes to these kind of decisions. They may be young, but they are determined and focussed and really are able to analyze the situation and make good decisions. They just need a little help and some assurances that they have your support and understanding. Sounds like your daughter knows what she wants. Good for both of you!

[Lmarletto]

I realize it takes time, but I have seen improvement in my dd in this regard just from the couple of months she spent with the different coach who puts more emphasis on this.

I think this is the key. Some coaches are better with kids that have body awareness issues than others. (And by issues, I don't mean anything like developmental delays, just normal age-appropriate limitations that would hardly be noticeable if they weren't child athletes.) Being able to keep after a kid about their body position without making the kid feel harassed is something some coaches have a knack for. Other coaches may never have the stamina or finesse for that.

I'm glad your daughter's coach understood, or at least accepted, where you were coming from.

[momof3chicks]

I think this is the key. Some coaches are better with kids that have body awareness issues than others. (And by issues, I don't mean anything like developmental delays, just normal age-appropriate limitations that would hardly be noticeable if they weren't child athletes.) Being able to keep after a kid about their body position without making the kid feel harassed is something some coaches have a knack for. Other coaches may never have the stamina or finesse for that.

I'm glad your daughter's coach understood, or at least accepted, where you were coming from.

This is it exactly, and it isn't as though my dd doesn't at times get frustrated at the constant correction, but I have been talking her through it, explaining muscle memory and likening it to the bad habits of my golf game (which also takes muscle memory). I am finding as she gets used to each coaches style, she warms to them and is more open to their correcting. You are correct that nobody would think a thing of it if she wasn't an 8 yo figure skater- she actually kicks everyones butt in gym because she is strong and coordinated, but a lot is expected in skating.

[Tennisany1]

This is it exactly, and it isn't as though my dd doesn't at times get frustrated at the constant correction, but I have been talking her through it, explaining muscle memory and likening it to the bad habits of my golf game (which also takes muscle memory). I am finding as she gets used to each coaches style, she warms to them and is more open to their correcting. You are correct that nobody would think a thing of it if she wasn't an 8 yo figure skater- she actually kicks everyones butt in gym because she is strong and coordinated, but a lot is expected in skating.

Your dd sounds so much like mine. I also try to explain things in terms of my sports and exercise routines. I find she is much more open and accepting when she realizes that I too struggle with not always being able to make my muscles do what I want them to do.

I agree that an awful lot is expected in figure skating, expecially at such a young age. I wonder how many wonder skaters we have missed seeing over the years because they couldn't make the age cut offs and gave up too soon. I think skaters like Leslie Hawker are the exception and are also a great role model for young girls.

[momof3chicks]

Your dd sounds so much like mine. I also try to explain things in terms of my sports and exercise routines. I find she is much more open and accepting when she realizes that I too struggle with not always being able to make my muscles do what I want them to do.

I agree that an awful lot is expected in figure skating, expecially at such a young age. I wonder how many wonder skaters we have missed seeing over the years because they couldn't make the age cut offs and gave up too soon. I think skaters like Leslie Hawker are the exception and are also a great role model for young girls.

That is so true, most of dds skating peers (or those she aspires to skate like) are older than her- some as much as 3 years. So now and again I point that out to her. She is also very tall for her age, so doesn't appear that young. I think even she forgets! I keep explaining to her she is actually is a really good position because of that.

[ukmum]

Isn't being a mother hard work! All that angst and it turned out OK. Well done, sounds like you handled the whole thing well.

[momof3chicks]

Isn't being a mother hard work! All that angst and it turned out OK. Well done, sounds like you handled the whole thing well.

Yes it is!! Thanks