Backspin Help

[dance2sk8]

I am not afraid of jumping or doing anything in spins..until I have to do a back spin. I am TERRIFIED of them! What are some things I can do to work on them? Off ice as well...I want to gain confidence in doing them. Its the one area I have been working on lately and I continuously allow my left hip to fall, hence it doesn't happen. I can feel when I am on the right edge, but its so awkward. :cry:

Thanks in advance!

[fsk8r]

I am not afraid of jumping or doing anything in spins..until I have to do a back spin. I am TERRIFIED of them! What are some things I can do to work on them? Off ice as well...I want to gain confidence in doing them. Its the one area I have been working on lately and I continuously allow my left hip to fall, hence it doesn't happen. I can feel when I am on the right edge, but its so awkward. :cry:

Thanks in advance!

This isn't going to help much, but doing lots of them and keeping trying. I've finally got something which is rotating after nearly 18months of solid work on them. I'm not on the right edge most of them, but rotating means I can work on getting the edge right. The one thing I've noticed that I'm now doing, is pulling everything in and holding it tight. I'm sure this is what they call a strong core, but I think of holding my tummy in and I probably take a deep breath as well. Now it's spinning I'm thinking that breathing might be a wise idea.

Hopefully someone else will have some better tips than this. But I just wanted to let you know, that it can be really frustrating and difficult but you will eventually get it.

[dance2sk8]

Thank you! Yeah, I have a lot of fear when it comes to the backspin, due to the fact I can't fathom the correct way to fall when rotating in that direction. I am terrified of getting all mangled and injuring myself. I have no problem falling in the counter clockwise position. Amazing how our brains work. :??

[phoenix]

How are you entering the spin?

IMO it's easiest to learn these from a back pivot, rather than going for the full FI edge & 3 turn.

You can also practice those FI edges and 3 turns on their own, since if you're at all unsteady on that entrance the spin is guaranteed not to work, and also to be scary!

[Isk8NYC]

Just a quick note: the backspin rotates in the same direction as your forward spin. If you do forward spins CCW, you would do a backspin CCW as well. The difference is in the foot/edge - CCW Forward=LBI edge; Backspin=RBO edge.

Practice backspins off ice wearing socks on the kitchen floor. Make sure you're not going to crash into anything if you lose your balance, lol.

On the ice, a good drill is to glide on a back outside edge and practice holding up in your free leg with arms extended, then pull in as if you were spinning. It helps you learn to balance.

It takes tons of practice to get a good backspin, so don't give up!

I don't teach the backspin from a pivot position - it's too easy for the students to get tangled up.
Start with a two-foot spin, then just "pick up" the free knee and hold that foot against your skating ankle. Make headlights with your knees and see how that goes.

[Morgail]

Have you tried a spinner? I have the cheap, rectangular plastic one, and the only spin I found it helpful for was the backspin. It might help you find the correct position and help with keeping the left hip up. Just make sure to do it away from furniture...bumping into countertops can be a little painful. :)

[CoachPA]

IMO it's easiest to learn these from a back pivot, rather than going for the full FI edge & 3 turn.

I usually have my skaters try to enter from a back pivot, but this doesn't necessarily work for all skaters, especially if the skater has a weak back pivot that tends to push onto a backward outside edge then rock to the toe pick rather than a back pivot that pivots around oneself.

I know there are some coaches out there who believe that a back spin should not be taught from a FI edge, [they're reasoning] being that the spin does not spin on a forward edge, but I've found a lot of skaters do better when introduced to the spin from a FI edge. For my skaters who struggle with the back pivot entrance, I will usually cut right to this entrance until a correct back pivot is consistent.

Assuming the skater is CCW, I have him/her stand on a RFI edge with the right side (shoulder/arm/hip) leading and the left side (shoulder/arm/hip/foot) open and slightly behind. The skater should focus especially on staying down in the skating knee and ankle and take this edge without breaking at the waist.

The first few times, I simply have the skater hold this RFI edge as long as he/she can. I don't worry particularly about how large the circle is but rather that the skater is in the correct position with his/her alignment over the right side. Sometimes the skater will begin to feel the urge to close the lobe and rotate, or rather, spin. Once the skater has mastered the proper body position, I gradually emphasize taking a deeper RFI edge, which (with the right alignment and position) causes a natural rotation into the RFI three-turn putting the skater on the correct RBO edge to spin. (For timid skaters, you may have to help them take the deeper RFI edge by holding the skaters' right and left arm in toward the circle and releasing them as the spin starts to rotate.)

One of the most important things to remember is not to force a three-turn or try to force the body into the backspin. Let the rotation happen naturally; if you feel as though you're gliding on that RFI edge too long, you likely need to get down in the skating knee and ankle a bit more and take a deeper entrance edge that will get you into the three-turn onto the RBO edge quicker.

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv164/PACoach/SpinEntrance.jpg

On the ice, a good drill is to glide on a back outside edge and practice holding up in your free leg with arms extended, then pull in as if you were spinning. It helps you learn to balance.

This is a fabulous exercise and one that I use religiously! You'll definitely be able to identify common errors, such as not staying over the right side or letting you left side (knee, shoulder, foot, hip, whatever) open up because you will not be able to maintain a glide in the backspin position if you are not properly aligned. (More than likely, if you're rocking up to the toe pick after one revolution or so, you are a.) not over your skating (right) side or b.) letting the left side open up.) So, not only are you learning correct balance, as Isk8NYC pointed out, but you'll be building muscle memory in the correct spinning positions.

I teach two basic positions in backspins: the "h" position and the "d" position, both of which Audrey Weisiger of the Grassroots to Champions seminars emphasizes as well. For those who are unclear as to what these positions look like, I've included my own illustration below as well as Audrey's photos with two of her students in these positions.

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv164/PACoach/BasicHandDPositions.jpg

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv164/PACoach/AWBasicHandDPositions.jpg

In the basic "h", the belly button is pulled slightly into the spin for a strong core. The entire free side is in front of the skating side, arms extended with the left one in front, almost as if you are holding a big beachball toward the inside of the circle. The skating leg, or the leg that you are spinning on, should be locked straight while the free leg is slightly bent at the knee and the foot slightly pigeon-toed to ensure that the free side does not open up. This position causes the body as a whole to resemble a lowercase "h".

This is the position you should begin the backspin in. This gives you time to get over the right side and to center the spin. From there, you can close down into the basic "d" position, as shown above. Again, the core is kept strong by pulling the belly button toward the spin much like the "h" position. The free leg's ankle closes (slightly pigeon-toed) over the skating foot's ankle and the free hip is slightly higher than the skating hip so that you can maintain the spin over the right side. The arms close in with the left side still in front--elbows down!

When doing the exercise that Isk8NYC mentioned, these are the two positions you want to hit. Do not try to close into the "d" position until you have achieved the correct "h" position. If you cannot hit the "h" position and continue your RBO edge glide (for instance, you are scraping the toe pick or hunching forward) you are not properly aligned and will struggle with the "d" position and the backspin. Once you are able to glide in "h", do not move anything except the free knee directly down to close into "d".

Once you feel comfortable with this exercise, attempt the actual backspin focusing on alignment and proper posture.

[peanutskates]

imagine a string attached to your head, pulling your whole body straight up. bring the free leg and arms in slowly... tell yourself you are in control of the spin, you can stop whenever you want to, you are not afraid to fall.

other than that, it really is a matter of time, and finding your own little tricks to getting it. keep practicing, don't lose faith! It's taken me about 2 years of backspin-ing to get a "good" backspin, and still it isn't perfect.

For gaining confidence, I greatly recommend the song "Get Up" from the Ice Princess soundtrack. :D

[dance2sk8]

Thank you, thank you!!! You all gave me some needed info. I need to practice my FI Edge and get that a bit more solid, I think. I will keep you posted on my progress.

Oh, and I learned how to do a split jump this afternoon. Those are fun! :lol:

[CoachPA]

Thank you, thank you!!! You all gave me some needed info. I need to practice my FI Edge and get that a bit more solid, I think. I will keep you posted on my progress.

Good approach, considering that I read on another thread that you've only been skating for about two months.

While it's great that you're mastering all these new jumps and spins, don't forget that you can never stop improving on the basics. Besides, the backspin is a challenging spin for many skaters, so don't be so hard on yourself. Think of all the other elements you've accomplished in such short time.

Give yourself time to foster the fundamentals and go from there. After all, the strong your basic edges and skating skills, the better you'll be able to apply them to your jumps and spins and benefit from them in the long run.

[Mrs Redboots]

Practice FI 3-turns on that foot, also BO ones. Work on twizzles. Anything that gets you turning in that direction on that foot so you can get used to it!

[dance2sk8]

Practice FI 3-turns on that foot, also BO ones. Work on twizzles. Anything that gets you turning in that direction on that foot so you can get used to it!

Ahhhh, twizzles... I can sort of do that on my right foot, clock wise. on my left foot, counter clock wise...eeks... But I am working on my edges to improve and get to a point where I can do those. I think they look so amazing when done well. :bow:

[dance2sk8]

Good approach, considering that I read on another thread that you've only been skating for about two months.

While it's great that you're mastering all these new jumps and spins, don't forget that you can never stop improving on the basics. Besides, the backspin is a challenging spin for many skaters, so don't be so hard on yourself. Think of all the other elements you've accomplished in such short time.

Give yourself time to foster the fundamentals and go from there. After all, the strong your basic edges and skating skills, the better you'll be able to apply them to your jumps and spins and benefit from them in the long run.

You've been most MOST helpful. I appreciate the info. I know my edges still need a lot of work and mastering them. I am sooo addicted to skating, I go just about every day (I take 2 days off though to rest, even though one of them is for ballet/jazz to help with artistry and agility), for 2 hrs at a time. I finally found something I feel so comfortable doing. :D

[Isk8NYC]

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv164/PACoach/SpinEntrance.jpg
I draw a similar (bit tighter/rounder) corkscrew pattern on the ice with a marker and have the skater follow the curve around while keeping the free leg behind and cross-checking the arms/shoulders.

When they start to turn, I have them bring (almost twist) the arms/shoulders around and let the hips "catch up" with the shoulders.

Only works if the skater can control themselves enough to hold back on the three. Otherwise, you get one flat blade length and a weak entrance.

One of the most important things to remember is not to force a three-turn or try to force the body into the backspin. Let the rotation happen naturally; if you feel as though you're gliding on that RFI edge too long, you likely need to get down in the skating knee and ankle a bit more and take a deeper entrance edge that will get you into the three-turn onto the RBO edge quicker.

I have two skaters doing remedial work on this spin; I'll try this and let you know if it helps them.

[fsk8r]

The description of the "h" and "d" position is really helpful. And whilst the description of moving from one to the other makes it sound relatively simple, I seem to get stuck at the h position and can't pull in/down into the d position without stepping down onto the free leg and not pulling out of the spin. I find getting into a tight position into the spin somehow difficult and would prefer to be more open.
I should add, that my forward upright spin is just that. I've never managed to get as far as the cross toe, and would be quite happy to spin all day with my free leg open (I do pull in and end in a stork position but can't do much else with the free leg).
Are there any tips I could try? I'm currently delighted to be spinning but realise there's a lot to getting the right edge and the right position, but it's a starting point.

[sk8lady]

And wear practice clothes you don't care about. I tore 3 pairs of pants and a brand new pair of tights learning my backspin!!

[doubletoe]

For what it's worth, when I first started doing backspins--and it took me a year just to get 3 revolutions--the only way I could do them was to keep my spinning leg slightly bent, rest my free foot (the outside of my boot) over the knee of the spinning leg, have my spinning side arm rounded in front of me and my free arm raised up. I guess that kept me balanced over my spinning side. Hey, whatever it takes, right?! But 60% of it was all about the entrance edge. Try it from a pivot for a week and see what happens.

[CoachPA]

The description of the "h" and "d" position is really helpful. And whilst the description of moving from one to the other makes it sound relatively simple, I seem to get stuck at the h position and can't pull in/down into the d position without stepping down onto the free leg and not pulling out of the spin. I find getting into a tight position into the spin somehow difficult and would prefer to be more open.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, but in your backspin, are you stepping on your skating foot when trying to cross your free foot (like in the first picture below)?

If so, pigeon-toe your free foot a bit and point slightly, especially when bringing the foot in. (This has to start in the "h" position though.) Whenever my students are stepping on their own skating foot, its usually because they have their free foot and hip too open. When done correctly, you should be crossing your left heel into your right ankle.

Below are two examples of "d" position in the backspin. The first position is incorrect; as you can see, the free hip, knee, and foot are too open, which causes the skater to step on the skating foot.

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv164/PACoach/DSCI0075.jpg

The second example is correct "d" position. The skater's free hip is slightly higher than the skating hip, the free knee is straight and the the free foot is slightly pointed and pigeon-toed, which allows the skater to close straight down without stepping on the skating foot.

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv164/PACoach/DSCI0073.jpg

[fsk8r]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, but in your backspin, are you stepping on your skating foot when trying to cross your free foot (like in the first picture below)?

If so, pigeon-toe your free foot a bit and point slightly, especially when bringing the foot in. (This has to start in the "h" position though.) Whenever my students are stepping on their own skating foot, its usually because they have their free foot and hip too open. When done correctly, you should be crossing your left heel into your right ankle.

Below are two examples of "d" position in the backspin. The first position is incorrect; as you can see, the free hip, knee, and foot are too open, which causes the skater to step on the skating foot.

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv164/PACoach/DSCI0075.jpg

The second example is correct "d" position. The skater's free hip is slightly higher than the skating hip, the free knee is straight and the the free foot is slightly pointed and pigeon-toed, which allows the skater to close straight down without stepping on the skating foot.

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv164/PACoach/DSCI0073.jpg


They're great pictures and really clear examples of open and closed hips. Thank you.
I'm probably getting closer to the correct d position although hips may be a little more open than they should be (I'll check when I get on the ice tonight / tomorrow) but normally I get stuck with the free leg away from the skating leg. It's in the right position/angle but can't/won't come in close to it.
I'm not sure if this is the fear of the spin getting faster, a fear that I'm going to step down in the spin and not get out of it, or just me not being able to close up properly without the whole body wobbling. The coach is moaning about having a strong core and I do admittedly forget to hold everything in at time, but I don't think it's that weak.
Is this a common sort of issue, that skaters get stuck more open than they should be? And is it easily overcome other than the hard work approach?
Definitely going to look and see if I can pidgeon toe some more...

[CoachPA]

Is this a common sort of issue, that skaters get stuck more open than they should be? And is it easily overcome other than the hard work approach?
Definitely going to look and see if I can pidgeon toe some more...

Oh yeah! That's definitely a common issue, at least with most of the skaters I work with. I've found that 90% of problems with backspins come from the free side being too open.

One thing that helps, in addition to the glide in "h" and "d" position exercise that both Isk8NYC and I have mentioned above, is to enter the "h" position exercise from a RFI three-turn. (You'd start by gliding forward on your RI edge with the right side leading, much like you'd enter the actual spin with. Do a RFI three-turn making sure that your second half of the turn is held in "h" position. From there, work on closing to "d".) Trust me: if there's an issue with anything being too open or incorrectly aligned, you'll know it as you'll likely scrape the toepick and have difficulty gliding or maintaining a position. And, like your coach said, you must have a strong core. Focus on pulling the belly button to the spine to make maintaining the correct positions less of a struggle.

Keep at it; so much of this relates back to muscle memory.

[Isk8NYC]

This morning, I remembered that our coaches' meeting last year included a great on-ice demonstration of a technique for backspins. I asked one of the other coaches to refresh my memory this morning (6am).

She also liked the technique because, like me, she doesn't normally teach a backspin from the pivot position. Unless a student already has a strong back pivot, it's time-consuming to teach that along with the pivoting backspin entry. We both teach the declining FI entry.

But, we both liked this technique. The key to making this work is to have the student arrange themselves BEFORE trying to turn into the backspin position.

Note: This is for CCW spinners!


Check arms and shoulders across to the right side.
Put right toepick into the ice.
Place left blade BEHIND the pivoting foot on an inside edge. (pigeon-toe slightly)
Have the skater turn CCW "towards the free foot", coming off the toepick to the BO rocker.
Must use the shoulders/arms to start the spin.
As the skater turns and closes the hip, have them hold the free foot in front.
This keeps the skater on balance and helps them find their rocker quickly and easily.
It also nails that feeling of letting the hips catch up with the free leg that the skater eventually needs for the FI 3-turn entrance.

[doubletoe]

Oh, one more thing that helps when my backspin is off is to think "loop jump" as soon as I start the spin. That makes me keep my free hip closed instead of open and makes me lift the free hip and knee a little. Of course this will only help if you already do loop jumps. :roll:

[dance2sk8]

Oh, one more thing that helps when my backspin is off is to think "loop jump" as soon as I start the spin. That makes me keep my free hip closed instead of open and makes me lift the free hip and knee a little. Of course this will only help if you already do loop jumps. :roll:

Ooooh. I never really thought of it that way and already can do a decent loop jump. I will try that. I am very visual and I think mentally this may help a little. I will let you know how it goes after tomorrow! Today is my day off from skating. :)

[fsk8r]

Oh, one more thing that helps when my backspin is off is to think "loop jump" as soon as I start the spin. That makes me keep my free hip closed instead of open and makes me lift the free hip and knee a little. Of course this will only help if you already do loop jumps. :roll:

That's probably a great help if you do your loop jump properly, but I've got an open free leg by the side loop jump at the moment. Crossing legs has been kept by an optional extra for me. It's becoming more of an issue as I work on Lutzes but it's not been fussed about too much. Wonder if this is where all the back spin problems stem from!

Will work on keeping free side closed more tonight. It's good to know that this is a common problem. It probably also explains why I've been switching from BO to FI when I'm spinning and rocking back again. As I'm now aware of doing this it's helping keep on the BO longer, but hadn't realised that being more closed would also help with this (despite it being quite obvious!).

Thanks for the tips.

[antmanb]

Having struggled constantly with back spins this thred is very very useful to me.

Something I am having much more progress with at the moment is back camels - transitioning from a front camel. For some reason i'm not scared to fall out of a camel spin so a lot of the fear factor disappears. I think the position of the camel spin means that my weight is slightly further back on the blade which is exactly what i need to do in my back upright spin.

Most importantly it is teaching me exactly where the weight is to go and finding the sweet spot. The main obsevration of this is that the sweet spot feel MUCH farther back than I thought but the fact that your limbs are much more stretched out and away from the spinning point means that you can do a lot of weight shifting to find the best part of the blade to be on so that you can apply it to the upright spin.

So far i've managed to squeak out more successful upright back spins directly from the back camel than on it's own.

Don't know if anyone else has found this butit has certainly encouraged me with back spins to try this.

Ant

[stacyf419]

Hi antman-
I remember that one of our posters (kayskate) posted this same thing on her journal - that she felt it would be easier to teach the backspin as a back camel first, because she felt that it was easier to achieve that position first. I think I'm going to give it a try!

[doubletoe]

That's probably a great help if you do your loop jump properly, but I've got an open free leg by the side loop jump at the moment. Crossing legs has been kept by an optional extra for me. It's becoming more of an issue as I work on Lutzes but it's not been fussed about too much. Wonder if this is where all the back spin problems stem from!

Will work on keeping free side closed more tonight. It's good to know that this is a common problem. It probably also explains why I've been switching from BO to FI when I'm spinning and rocking back again. As I'm now aware of doing this it's helping keep on the BO longer, but hadn't realised that being more closed would also help with this (despite it being quite obvious!).

Absolutely! The thing is, you're never actually crossing your free leg in front on any jump or on the backspin. What you're doing is keeping the left hip, leg and shoulder locked into place and then turning your right hip in so that you face the left leg, which now --ta daa!--is magically in front of you. The more you keep turning the right hip while leaving the left leg in the same place, the more the left leg will end up crossed in front of the right. But when I say "in the same place" I mean physically in the same place, like your left foot is an anchor and only the rest of your body is moving. If you keep the left leg in the same place *in relation to the right hip* then it will stay open and the left leg will stay extended behind you as you turn the right hip in. That's the entrance for the reverse camel.
On the loop takeoff edge, you want to do the same thing, i.e., keeping the left hip closed and turning the right side in so you face the left foot. Try it from a LFO 3-turn so that you exit on a LBI edge. Put the right foot down onto a RBO edge and bend deeply, keeping the left foot resting gently on the ice with the heel of the left foot lined up right in front of the toe of the takeoff foot. Make sure it trails on the ice in that position as you travel backward and CCW, not lifting it until you actually take off. You'll also need to keep the right arm/shoulder waay back and make sure your left arm crosses slightly in front of you, lined up right over the left leg. In other words, when your left arm is extended in front of you on the takeoff edge, your left hand should be in front of the middle of your chest, not in front of the left shoulder. If you can do this on the loop takeoff, that should give your body the position it needs to have on the backspin.

[fsk8r]

Absolutely! The thing is, you're never actually crossing your free leg in front on any jump or on the backspin. What you're doing is keeping the left hip, leg and shoulder locked into place and then turning your right hip in so that you face the left leg, which now --ta daa!--is magically in front of you. The more you keep turning the right hip while leaving the left leg in the same place, the more the left leg will end up crossed in front of the right. But when I say "in the same place" I mean physically in the same place, like your left foot is an anchor and only the rest of your body is moving. If you keep the left leg in the same place *in relation to the right hip* then it will stay open and the left leg will stay extended behind you as you turn the right hip in. That's the entrance for the reverse camel.
On the loop takeoff edge, you want to do the same thing, i.e., keeping the left hip closed and turning the right side in so you face the left foot. Try it from a LFO 3-turn so that you exit on a LBI edge. Put the right foot down onto a RBO edge and bend deeply, keeping the left foot resting gently on the ice with the heel of the left foot lined up right in front of the toe of the takeoff foot. Make sure it trails on the ice in that position as you travel backward and CCW, not lifting it until you actually take off. You'll also need to keep the right arm/shoulder waay back and make sure your left arm crosses slightly in front of you, lined up right over the left leg. In other words, when your left arm is extended in front of you on the takeoff edge, your left hand should be in front of the middle of your chest, not in front of the left shoulder. If you can do this on the loop takeoff, that should give your body the position it needs to have on the backspin.

Suddenly all the relationships between loops and back spins become clear. Quite strange how in my day job I can cope with making relationships between randomly unconnected items and suddenly engineer something, but when it comes to skating I have everything in nice little boxes and they can't be taken out of them. I have to mentally call things different things even if just the setup is different!
Anyway, back to back spins. I get the analogy with the loop. I have the feeling that my loop is probably in the right position if not quite as tight as some people might like, and if I can transcribe that feeling into the backspin then things might become easier. But playing around with the backspin over the last couple of days and being aware of where my hips are has definitely helped. No major break through (but I'm not expecting one) but there's a distinct change as it's helping to keep the weight over the skating foot and not over the free side.

[Isk8NYC]

Update: I used the pivot-catch up in place with one of my private students yesterday. (She was taught the backspin by someone else and spins really aren't her strong suit.)

My student nailed several perfectly-centered backspins with the legs/arms in the right position using that start. The "catch up with your hips snap" helped the most because she had to use her upper body and could really feel the snap properly, whereas the normal pivot start left her tight and unbalanced.

That FI edge/3t entry is the trickiest part. After doing a few of these, then using the corkscrew FI edge, she managed three or four correct backspins with a good entry and coordinated upper- and lower-body positions.

The rush to do the 3turn is definitely the biggest problem, but much better than before I started coaching her. Progress is being made. I hope she'll be able to move up to Freeskate 4 next session.

[londonicechamp]

Hi fsk8r

With regards to your cross toe spin, try imaging there is a circle in the area you spin. Do a strong outside 3 turn on your right leg before you spin. Then cross your right foot.

It then takes me at least 2 years to master my cross toe spin properly, and I still cannot cross my right leg all the way down.

So don't give up, just keep on practising.

londonicechamp

[londonicechamp]

Hi ant

You are not the only one. I also find that out recently. I can do a back upright spin of 3 to 4 revolutions, whilst cannot do more than 1 revolution of a back spin at the moment. :??

londonicechamp