How do you know when a spin travels?

[Query]

I've tried for years and years to make spins work. Many coaches have tried to teach me tricks to make them not travel. I've tried:

starting low (knees bent) or starting high
forwards or backwards spins
one or two foot spins
various entries
various arm, shoulder and head positions
spinning on the flat or on an edge
spinning on the center of the blade
spinning on the forward or back part of the blade
spinning on the sweet spot
taking a full three turn first
taking a partial three turn into a full spin
relaxed or tense body
one foot or two
deep or shallow hollow
sharp or dull blades
freestyle or dance blades
blade offset or blade centered
various boot interior balance changes
socks or no socks
left or right foot

Everything anyone can think of.

But the basic problem is that I don't know when I am traveling. It doesn't feel any different, except in extreme cases where I start to lose my balance.

For a while I was sometimes succeeding in a non-traveling spin when I tried to twizzle (i.e., when I tried to travel), and vice versa, but that isn't reliable either.

Yes I can start on some mark on the ice and look down at it. But that isn't good form.

Anyone have ideas? How can I know when I am traveling, and which direction I'm traveling in?

(I guess sticking a pin onto my toe pick would be cheating. Maybe I could wear glasses with a downwards facing mirror. :) )

[hanca]

Well, except of checking the tracings afterwards...sometimes I feel it that I am travelling, sometimes I don't feel it and I am still travelling...and sometimes I am not travelling, but that does not happen often now. I was not travelling about a year ago. I don't know why or how I developed such a bad habit.

At the moment, my sit spins are more centred than my upright spins.

What about shutting your eyes? Did you try that? I am not joking, I found out that I have better sense of balance in my sit spin if I close my eyes. But I never though of trying it with upright spin, because the fall would be much more painful than with sit spin.

[liz_on_ice]

I often think I've not travelled far when I've drifted more than my height, and other times I though I was packing my bags to portugal, and only moved a bladelength or two.

That said, the times I've perfectly centered a spin, and made nice round little tracings, one right inside the other - those I can feel. It's like you've stepped outside the world to a perfectly still place, and it's hard to understand why everything is whizzing by so fast.

[FigureSk8Dad]

... It's like you've stepped outside the world to a perfectly still place, and it's hard to understand why everything is whizzing by so fast.


Liz, that is a wonderful quote. It should be on the back cover of a skating book or something.

[dbny]

Liz, that is a wonderful quote. It should be on the back cover of a skating book or something.

ITA. Also, I think this address the OP's question, which is how can one tell during the spin, if one is traveling? I can always tell, but then my spins are very small and slow. The only thing I could suggest is for you to back off to the simplest spins, maybe from a T push, and very slow. This might remove enough variables for you to begin to be able to feel the traveling or at least the difference between a spin that travels and one that is well centered.

[AgnesNitt]

Well, I can only do a two foot spin, so maybe my comments aren't relevant. However, so far I don't travel. I think this is because my spins are slow. Bec I'm so slow I can focus and feel my blade and body position--I still remember my first spin; I could feel everything about the blade: angle to the ice, weight distribution, edge, position on the rocker--it was like my skates were wired directly to my brain. (I thought 'This is what Johnny Weir feels like every day' and of course I've never recaptured that moment of perfection.)

I didn't see 'slow down' in your list of things you've tried. Maybe it's worth a shot.

[Sessy]

Liz, that is a wonderful quote. It should be on the back cover of a skating book or something.

I agree! And she nailed the essence!

[vesperholly]

That said, the times I've perfectly centered a spin, and made nice round little tracings, one right inside the other - those I can feel. It's like you've stepped outside the world to a perfectly still place, and it's hard to understand why everything is whizzing by so fast.
Yes, great way of putting it. It's when I do spins like those that I suddenly understand how people could conceive of Biellmans or illusions.

[Query]

Once in a while it is a little better balanced and faster than usual - but that just means I'm not rocking forward and back. No correlation with traveling.

But OK, let me try to summarize what you "guys" say: Close my eyes, take it very slow, but try to make it magically go fast but still. I'll try it tomorrow morning.

Any other hints? I want to create a feedback routine. Something I can clearly detect to show which direction I am traveling in, and something I can change to eliminate that direction of travel.

[fsk8r]

Once in a while it is a little better balanced and faster than usual - but that just means I'm not rocking forward and back. No correlation with traveling.

But OK, let me try to summarize what you "guys" say: Close my eyes, take it very slow, but try to make it magically go fast but still. I'll try it tomorrow morning.

Any other hints? I want to create a feedback routine. Something I can clearly detect to show which direction I am traveling in, and something I can change to eliminate that direction of travel.

You're rocking back and forward on your spin? I've been known to do something similar, and the rocking can indicate that you're travelling. I've learnt that I've got to be very aware in every spin as to what is happening, and it now means I can notice when things aren't centred. It's taken a long time, I think I was reigning inter-continental spin champion for several years running. I can still spin and end up either at the next rink down the road, or even New York but generally I can feel that something isn't quite right in the spin now. Correcting it whilst spinning is a different matter. But the main thing I've found is that all movements in a spin must be slow. So when pulling in, it must be done slowly and balanced.

[Thin-Ice]

Can you see the boards when you spin? I can tell if I'm traveling because even if I feel centered, it appears the boards (or my coach who is standing still) are moving, either up and down or on a long trajectory. If that happens, I do an inventory of where all my body parts are: "Head up/not looking at the ice, shoulders square,/not rounded forward, back straight/not arched, both shoulders level, arms directly in front of me/not pulling to one shoulder or the other, hips level and feet directly beneath me". I usually find what's pulling me off the actual center of the spin and correct it (at least most of the time I can figure it out and fix it). For me, it's usually my shoulders are not level.. and occassionally it's my hips not being level. I'm a counterclockwise spinner and I have a tendency to either raise my left shoulder or drop OR raise my right hip. But sometimes it's just that my head is tipped forward ever so slightly. And every once in a while it looks like I'm trying to skate into the next county on one spin and my coach can't even see what is wrong. So don't be too frustrated, sometimes it takes very little to pull you off a perfectly-centered spin. I do agree though it's easier to get into the right position if you're not flinging body parts to try to generate speed.. so slowing down might help you. Also have you tried just assuming the spin position in front of a mirror? Try to that with your eyes closed, then open them and see if you're actually aligned correctly. Try to memorize that feeling.

And can you hear your blade during a spin? A really-well centered spin sounds different than one that's even slightly off-balance. Have your coach or a friend who is a good spinner demonstrate and really listen to the blade on the ice. Try to hear that sound when you spin. If it's a constant sound, you've hit a well-balanced spin. If it has a rhythm to it, rather than one long sound, you're off-balance. This will make more sense when you actually listen instead of my trying to explain it.

It's taken me forever to get a camel and an attitude spin; the backspin and I are not really good friends right now. But I will keep working on them because I LOVE the way a well-centered spin feels and I really like finally declaring victory over the challenges skating so often provides us. Good luck!

[Clarice]

And can you hear your blade during a spin? A really-well centered spin sounds different than one that's even slightly off-balance. Have your coach or a friend who is a good spinner demonstrate and really listen to the blade on the ice. Try to hear that sound when you spin. If it's a constant sound, you've hit a well-balanced spin. If it has a rhythm to it, rather than one long sound, you're off-balance. This will make more sense when you actually listen instead of my trying to explain it.

I agree with this. Most of the time, I can hear/feel a rhythm or pulse to my spin when it's traveling.

[hanca]

You're rocking back and forward on your spin? I've been known to do something similar, and the rocking can indicate that you're travelling. I've learnt that I've got to be very aware in every spin as to what is happening, and it now means I can notice when things aren't centred. It's taken a long time, I think I was reigning inter-continental spin champion for several years running. I can still spin and end up either at the next rink down the road, or even New York but generally I can feel that something isn't quite right in the spin now. Correcting it whilst spinning is a different matter. But the main thing I've found is that all movements in a spin must be slow. So when pulling in, it must be done slowly and balanced.

I am rocking forward and backward too, from time to time. Every time when I put on weight, or every time when I loose weight, or every time I haven't skated for a week or longer, I somehow strugle to keep it on the right spot.

I also noticed that I am not doing it on the right spot anyway, because I can't make more than 8 revolutions and I think I am far too much on my toe pick (the tracing is like double circles rather than single circles). I was advised that I can fix it if I try to do it slightly more back on the blade (just a little tiny bit, to get off the toe pick and find the right spot), but somehow this advice messed up my (although incorrect) balance. By experimenting to move just slightly back, I was overdoing it, then coming back on the toe, and suddenly I started rocking in the search of the 'better' spot. At the end I moved it back where I was doing it and resigned to the fact that 8 revolutions must be enough, and that the 'loops' will have double lines because it was with toe pick. And that only one of ten is centred. Maybe one day... if I find out how to fix it...

My coach is also trying to teach me to be aware of my body parts' positions. ("Do you remember where you were looking? Do you remember where your right hand was on the outside edge? No? How come? It is your head/hand/leg, you should be able to feel it. Do it again and concentrate on this arm /leg/or head." etc) My awareness is getting better, I have to say. Still far from perfect, but now sometimes I can feel what is wrong, or if I travel. Not always yet.

[fsk8r]

I am rocking forward and backward too, from time to time. Every time when I put on weight, or every time when I loose weight, or every time I haven't skated for a week or longer, I somehow strugle to keep it on the right spot.

I also noticed that I am not doing it on the right spot anyway, because I can't make more than 8 revolutions and I think I am far too much on my toe pick (the tracing is like double circles rather than single circles). I was advised that I can fix it if I try to do it slightly more back on the blade (just a little tiny bit, to get off the toe pick and find the right spot), but somehow this advice messed up my (although incorrect) balance. By experimenting to move just slightly back, I was overdoing it, then coming back on the toe, and suddenly I started rocking in the search of the 'better' spot. At the end I moved it back where I was doing it and resigned to the fact that 8 revolutions must be enough, and that the 'loops' will have double lines because it was with toe pick. And that only one of ten is centred. Maybe one day... if I find out how to fix it...

My coach is also trying to teach me to be aware of my body parts' positions. ("Do you remember where you were looking? Do you remember where your right hand was on the outside edge? No? How come? It is your head/hand/leg, you should be able to feel it. Do it again and concentrate on this arm /leg/or head." etc) My awareness is getting better, I have to say. Still far from perfect, but now sometimes I can feel what is wrong, or if I travel. Not always yet.

One coach suggested that you should try and make the spin quiet rather than move the weight back to get off the toe-pick. I find that is an easier instruction to follow than to move my weight back, because if I'm listening to the blade I don't make big adjustments, so I can just get off the toe-pick without rocking too far back.

But I'm no spin expert, I think I max out on about 8 revolutions as well, although I currently only make sure I've got at least 5 in a nice pulled in position because that's the next test goal (and any more than that and I'm likely to wander off...

[Bill_S]

As a seasoned traveling spinner myself, I am also looking for the perfect fix.

While I didn't see a bumpy ride mentioned, I may have overlooked it in the replies above. When my spins are very centered, the ice gets very rough from the blade circling over and over in the same patch of ice. It's a bumpy ride, and my instincts are to change something when I first feel it.

Of course, when I react by changing something, it un-centers the spin.

Also I've become aware of a small movement that happens when I first enter a spin that's in danger of traveling badly. It's a small "scoop" of the spinning foot by moving my heel inward for a spit second to tighten the radius. It's almost unconscious, but this temporary "scoop" seems to catch my motion and helps me center better.

[hanca]

Also I've become aware of a small movement that happens when I first enter a spin that's in danger of traveling badly. It's a small "scoop" of the spinning foot by moving my heel inward for a spit second to tighten the radius. It's almost unconscious, but this temporary "scoop" seems to catch my motion and helps me center better.

I don't understand how you do it. Somehow I can't imagine this what you have described and that's a pity, because it may be exactly what I need. Sometimes my circles could be just a bit smaller. Moving heel invards - do you mean that you change edge of the spinning? Or where exactly you put the heel? Where inwards?
Can you video it and put it on youtube please? (it can be just video of the leg, if you don't want to have your face there.

[jazzpants]

How do I know when I'm traveling when I'm spinning... when coming out of it I feel REALLY dizzy, that usually tells me I'm travelling!!! :lol:

[Bill_S]

I don't understand how you do it. Somehow I can't imagine this what you have described and that's a pity, because it may be exactly what I need. Sometimes my circles could be just a bit smaller. Moving heel invards - do you mean that you change edge of the spinning? Or where exactly you put the heel? Where inwards?
Can you video it and put it on youtube please? (it can be just video of the leg, if you don't want to have your face there.

It's necessarily a very small motion, more pressure than motion actually. I'm sure it wouldn't show in a video.

The best description I can give is that it is similar to the action you do with back inside edges if you want to tighten the radius, but done quickly. I don't recall if I slightly bend the knee like doing BI edges or if it's just a quick scoop to center better.

And like I said, I do it to reduce traveling, but I still manage to travel more than I should - especially on hard ice for some reason. I spin better on soft ice.

[doubletoe]

I think there are two common causes of traveling: (1) because you're trying to go somewhere, and (2) because you aren't staying smooth and level on the entry.

1) "You travel because you're trying to go somewhere" (a quote from my coach that I'll never forget!).
On the entrance edge, try to cover ZERO distance on the ice. Just make a very small half circle that brings you back to the line you started on by the time you actually start the spin.
Start from a T position on a line, bend deeply at the ankle and knee, look to your left (assuming CCW direction) and gently push onto the skating foot, leading yourself around with a high, level sweeping left arm. Make the tiniest half circle you can, i.e., don't cover any distance on the ice, just draw a small half circle with your foot. You should feel like you are rotating around a pole that goes from your left foot up through your left hip and shoulder. Only when you have drawn a smooth little half circle should you gently bring the free leg from back to front and start your spin.

2) Stay smooth and level on the entry
If you are rocking back and forth, you probably aren't going into the spin smoothly, with your hips and shoulders level. Focus on keeping your leading (left, if CCW) shoulder high, hips and shoulders level, and eyes level on the entrance edge. Then, once you actually start the spin, think of your body--from hips to shoulders to head--as one unit, like you're a solid board, or like you're in a body cast. This will hopefully keep you from dipping a hip or shoulder as you spin, which is another cause of traveling.
Keep the skating knee soft (never locked out straight) and press the ball of the blade into the ice. Think about pressing down a little with your shoulders and forearms so they stay at chest level, never rising to shoulder level or above.

[liz_on_ice]

Liz, that is a wonderful quote. It should be on the back cover of a skating book or something.

aw gee, blush :)

[Query]

Tried some of these methods this morning.

Unfortunately, a usually non-busy daytime public session was crowded cuz people stayed home on for the change of national leadership.

I certainly tried the slow movements, and very simple entries (i.e., scratch spin entry, but off the sweet spot). But that isn't anything new for me.

I tried closing my eyes. I see what Thin-Ice meant. With my eyes closed, I did become more aware of my balance. I managed a couple of spins without travel, blade centered on my sweet spot. But with so many beginners on the ice, I didn't have many chances. I'm not strong enough to do a sit spin - it was a little scary spinning blind.

Between the noisy people, and the music, I couldn't hear my blade spin. Have to wait till it's quieter.

I don't know any DC area rinks that have mirrors. Besides, watching the mirror would change my body position. Maybe I could buy a a video camera to video myself...

I'll try again in a day or two.

[Thin-Ice]

I don't know any DC area rinks that have mirrors. Besides, watching the mirror would change my body position. Maybe I could buy a a video camera to video myself...


Does your rink have glass around the ice (usually used to prevent hockey pucks from flying into the stands)? I can't see details.. but I can see the general outline of my form in the reflection on the glass. Glad you could feel your balance point when you were spinning with your eyes closed. You're VERY brave to even try that with a bunch of kids around. Good for you!!! You WILL get spins with all the effort you're putting into this.

[liz_on_ice]

Yes, great way of putting it. It's when I do spins like those that I suddenly understand how people could conceive of Biellmans or illusions.

I'm thinking about this more, and I"m afraid it isn't going to carry over to sit spins or camels.

I suspect a good centered camel spin will have my butt in that still, otherworldly place, while my face swings round and round like a carousel horse.

[sk8lady]

I'm thinking about this more, and I"m afraid it isn't going to carry over to sit spins or camels.

I suspect a good centered camel spin will have my butt in that still, otherworldly place, while my face swings round and round like a carousel horse.

You know, I laughed when I read this, and then realized that it's true. I'm finally getting a good centered camel some of the time and when it's right and not traveling, I can tell because the skating leg, hip, and, of course, my butt are in the SOP (Still Otherworldly Place)! :D

[hanca]

I think there are two common causes of traveling: (1) because you're trying to go somewhere, and (2) because you aren't staying smooth and level on the entry.

1) "You travel because you're trying to go somewhere" (a quote from my coach that I'll never forget!).
On the entrance edge, try to cover ZERO distance on the ice. Just make a very small half circle that brings you back to the line you started on by the time you actually start the spin.
Start from a T position on a line, bend deeply at the ankle and knee, look to your left (assuming CCW direction) and gently push onto the skating foot, leading yourself around with a high, level sweeping left arm. Make the tiniest half circle you can, i.e., don't cover any distance on the ice, just draw a small half circle with your foot. You should feel like you are rotating around a pole that goes from your left foot up through your left hip and shoulder. Only when you have drawn a smooth little half circle should you gently bring the free leg from back to front and start your spin.

2) Stay smooth and level on the entry
If you are rocking back and forth, you probably aren't going into the spin smoothly, with your hips and shoulders level. Focus on keeping your leading (left, if CCW) shoulder high, hips and shoulders level, and eyes level on the entrance edge. Then, once you actually start the spin, think of your body--from hips to shoulders to head--as one unit, like you're a solid board, or like you're in a body cast. This will hopefully keep you from dipping a hip or shoulder as you spin, which is another cause of traveling.
Keep the skating knee soft (never locked out straight) and press the ball of the blade into the ice. Think about pressing down a little with your shoulders and forearms so they stay at chest level, never rising to shoulder level or above.

Wow, Doubletoe, I have to say that I really admire the way you explain things. Tomorrow I will try what you suggested. Thank you. :bow:

[doubletoe]

Wow, Doubletoe, I have to say that I really admire the way you explain things. Tomorrow I will try what you suggested. Thank you. :bow:

Well, don't thank me unless it works! :lol: If your sitspin is your most centered spin, it's probably because you get deeper knee and ankle bend on the entrance edge to your sitspin. That makes your entrance edge rounder and also forces you hold the edge a little longer before starting the spin. Try bending your knee as deeply as a sitspin entrance on your upright and camel spin entries and see if it helps!

[antmanb]

It's like you've stepped outside the world to a perfectly still place, and it's hard to understand why everything is whizzing by so fast.

and this:


I suspect a good centered camel spin will have my butt in that still, otherworldly place, while my face swings round and round like a carousel horse.

Are being printed out and put in my skating bag. It's all so true and funny! :bow:

Ant

[hanca]

Well, don't thank me unless it works! :lol: If your sitspin is your most centered spin, it's probably because you get deeper knee and ankle bend on the entrance edge to your sitspin. That makes your entrance edge rounder and also forces you hold the edge a little longer before starting the spin. Try bending your knee as deeply as a sitspin entrance on your upright and camel spin entries and see if it helps!

Your advice did work, doubletoe. My spins still need a lot of work, but there were a few during which I managed to do what you were saying and they were more centred. More the knee and ankle bend is needed and trying to do less distance on the left outside entrance edge (but make it more curved).
Thank you :bow:

[Query]

Well, on a nice quiet session your folks ideas started to work, especially those of thin-ice. I can't pretend instantaneous success, but between eyes closed and listening to the blade, at least I know how to proceed.

(Looking at the reflection in the glass made me busy, so I'll drop that.)

In particular if I try to spin on the sweet spot, by rolling forwards on the blade until I feel a change of curvature, and I do everything right, I can hardly hear anything, and it spins a little longer. I guess sound wastes energy, so quiet should be good.

Is that where I should be spinning forward spins? Is that what I should hear?

Except: most people I've talked to prefer to center forward spins so their toe pick just brushes.

On my (dance) blades, the sweet spot is centered around the ball of my feet, and spinning on the sweet spot does not touch the toe pick. I talked to a coach whose sweet spot centers near the center of her blade. A boot fitter once told me all blades from each manufacturer have exactly the same profile, regardless of length, so I guess people with small feet have the sweet spot near the back, and people with large feet have it near the toe...

Where is that sweet spot on most people's blades? Where should it be?

[doubletoe]

Your advice did work, doubletoe. My spins still need a lot of work, but there were a few during which I managed to do what you were saying and they were more centred. More the knee and ankle bend is needed and trying to do less distance on the left outside entrance edge (but make it more curved).
Thank you :bow:

Yay!! Glad it helped! :D

[Skate@Delaware]

I think there are two common causes of traveling: (1) because you're trying to go somewhere, and (2) because you aren't staying smooth and level on the entry.

1) "You travel because you're trying to go somewhere" (a quote from my coach that I'll never forget!).
On the entrance edge, try to cover ZERO distance on the ice. Just make a very small half circle that brings you back to the line you started on by the time you actually start the spin.
Start from a T position on a line, bend deeply at the ankle and knee, look to your left (assuming CCW direction) and gently push onto the skating foot, leading yourself around with a high, level sweeping left arm. Make the tiniest half circle you can, i.e., don't cover any distance on the ice, just draw a small half circle with your foot. You should feel like you are rotating around a pole that goes from your left foot up through your left hip and shoulder. Only when you have drawn a smooth little half circle should you gently bring the free leg from back to front and start your spin.

2) Stay smooth and level on the entry
If you are rocking back and forth, you probably aren't going into the spin smoothly, with your hips and shoulders level. Focus on keeping your leading (left, if CCW) shoulder high, hips and shoulders level, and eyes level on the entrance edge. Then, once you actually start the spin, think of your body--from hips to shoulders to head--as one unit, like you're a solid board, or like you're in a body cast. This will hopefully keep you from dipping a hip or shoulder as you spin, which is another cause of traveling.
Keep the skating knee soft (never locked out straight) and press the ball of the blade into the ice. Think about pressing down a little with your shoulders and forearms so they stay at chest level, never rising to shoulder level or above.
These two things will help you a lot! Most people rush the entry and that dooms 99% of spins; if you are uneven and not level you will travel. So, for your first 5,000,000 attempts, slow it down and don't even try them from back crossovers instead do them from the line or from a 3-turn entry until that works for you. Once you have that down, then go from back crossovers.

On my (dance) blades, the sweet spot is centered around the ball of my feet, and spinning on the sweet spot does not touch the toe pick. I talked to a coach whose sweet spot centers near the center of her blade. A boot fitter once told me all blades from each manufacturer have exactly the same profile, regardless of length, so I guess people with small feet have the sweet spot near the back, and people with large feet have it near the toe...

Where is that sweet spot on most people's blades? Where should it be?
I believe that everyone will have a slightly different spot that works for them...for me, its the ball of my foot and what helps me is stretching my skating leg and actually feeling as though I'm on the ball of my foot (lifting my toes & heel in my boot). When i do that my spinning is better assuming I entered it correctly and I was level.

[singerskates]

How do I know when a spin travels?





I get bills in the mail because spins don't have their own credit cards, nor do they carry checks. Sometimes the bills are more expensive when the spins fly. So it's important to have either a Visa Check Card, Master Card or personal checks of your own but don't be in a hurry to turn the corner or the trip won't be fun.



:lol: :bow: :rotflol:

Really, I can tell when my spin is going to travel when I go into the spin without keeping my arms and shoulders level and when my free hip has dropped or is dropping before I hook the spin. Sometimes I travel because I get too impatient and hook the spin early instead of waiting until I'm almost back to where I begain the spiralling edge. If I keep my shoulders, arms and free hip lined properly and be patient enough on the spiralling edge before hooking the spin, I can attain a decently centered spin no matter the type of spin.

Don't forget to master your patience on the spiralling edge and to check that your shoulders, arms and free hip are properly lined (arms and shoulders horizontal from the ice not tipping one way or the other until you have centered the spin for at least 1 rotation after the hook. :P

[Thin-Ice]

Well, on a nice quiet session your folks ideas started to work, especially those of thin-ice. I can't pretend instantaneous success, but between eyes closed and listening to the blade, at least I know how to proceed.

(Looking at the reflection in the glass made me busy, so I'll drop that.)

In particular if I try to spin on the sweet spot, by rolling forwards on the blade until I feel a change of curvature, and I do everything right, I can hardly hear anything, and it spins a little longer. I guess sound wastes energy, so quiet should be good.

Is that where I should be spinning forward spins? Is that what I should hear?

Except: most people I've talked to prefer to center forward spins so their toe pick just brushes.

On my (dance) blades, the sweet spot is centered around the ball of my feet, and spinning on the sweet spot does not touch the toe pick. I talked to a coach whose sweet spot centers near the center of her blade. A boot fitter once told me all blades from each manufacturer have exactly the same profile, regardless of length, so I guess people with small feet have the sweet spot near the back, and people with large feet have it near the toe...

Where is that sweet spot on most people's blades? Where should it be?

I agree, the "sweet spot" is different for many people since each of our bodies is slightly different so we carry our weight in different ways and the size of the toe pick itself makes a difference in the balance point too. For me, the sweet spot is just behind when my toe pick brushes the ice, although many of my friends say they have to just barely feel the toe pick on the ice. And yes, quieter is better... less drag means less wasted energy which means a longer duration for the spin. I LOVE the sound of a well-centered spin... it's one of the things that can make an otherwise "bad skating day" good. Glad some of it helped and I'm so glad you could figure out which tips worked for you! Happy spinning!

[Query]

I agree, the "sweet spot" is different for many people since each of our bodies is slightly different so we carry our weight in different ways and the size of the toe pick itself makes a difference in the balance point too.

I was thinking of the shape of the blade, not where you actually spin. I.E., a sweet spot in blade shape terms is a point along the blade where the length-wise ("rocker") curvature changes, or where the rocker curvature is discontinuous, forming a place where it is designed to be easier to rotate.

Or are you saying you had your sharpener move your sweet spot to where you wanted it? I wonder if a lot of people do that.

[Thin-Ice]

I was thinking of the shape of the blade, not where you actually spin. I.E., a sweet spot in blade shape terms is a point along the blade where the length-wise ("rocker") curvature changes, or where the rocker curvature is discontinuous, forming a place where it is designed to be easier to rotate.

Or are you saying you had your sharpener move your sweet spot to where you wanted it? I wonder if a lot of people do that.

I don't know about anyone else.. but I'm not messing with my blades except to make sure they are sharpened regularly. I'm not an engineer and don't feel capable of redesigning them... and I'm probably a little too lazy and cheap to want to experiment with my blades. So I just make my body cope with what's there... which could explain why I have some problems with my skating. But spinning (at least forward spins -- I'm still trying to consistently find the right balance spot for back spins) have turned out ok for me.. and I figure if my blades are the same kind as the "hot shots" use and it works for them, I'm not that special I need them changed to accomodate my quirks. I'm not going to the Olympics without a ticket. :D:lol:

But I appreciate your definition of "sweet spot". I was thinking of it more along the lines of the same term for a tennis racket's sweet spot... where you hit the ball to get the most bang for the buck, so to speak.

Good luck on your continuing quest to conquer spins!

[Query]

I think real athletes can compensate for a lot of blade and boot issues. Congratulations! I'm such a poor skater that I have to get everything right on my equipment to do anything. You don't have to be an engineer to think things through or experiment. I'm not.

But I can see why you are afraid to. Blades are ridiculously expensive, given that the material costs are probably a few pennies each. I'd bet manufacturing costs are under a few dollars. If I were an engineer, I'd be tempted to make them - and skates too. Outrageous profit margins.

A well respected sharpener re-profiles and re-hollows all new blades. He claims blades are sometimes factory shipped with different hollows on left and right blades, and that they sometimes ship blades which differ substantially from the usual profile in non-constant ways. But another very good sharpener said that was true of MK, but not Ultima.

Whenever a blade is sharpened, it flattens and loses the sweet spot, if the sharpener isn't careful to retain the original profile - just like sanding a rectangular block of wood tends to round corners. I wish someone would post photocopies of new blades on the internet so we could all put them back.

I agree that the Pro-filer uses far less metal than machine sharpenings. Part of this is consistency - not all sharpening wheels actually have exactly the same shape, even if they are the same brand, model and nominal radius. Part of it is the slower grind allows you to reshape the metal, rather than just grind it away. Like using a "steel" on kitchen knives in between rarer occaisions of using a grinding stone.

Do you use water or oil as the lubricant? The instructions say oil, but some of the tool sharpening community claims water gives cleaner edges at hand sharpening speeds. Since I don't want a mess in my skate bag, I'm using water too.

[doubletoe]

A well respected sharpener re-profiles and re-hollows all new blades. He claims blades are sometimes factory shipped with different hollows on left and right blades, and that they sometimes ship blades which differ substantially from the usual profile in non-constant ways. But another very good sharpener said that was true of MK, but not Ultima.

Re-hollows, definitely. But re-profiles?? My sharpener would only re-profile a blade if the rocker had been flattened or made uneven through previous sharpenings, i.e., it's not something you should ever need to do on new blades. If the profile isn't right on a new blade, you send them back.

[Skate@Delaware]

I think real athletes can compensate for a lot of blade and boot issues. Congratulations! I'm such a poor skater that I have to get everything right on my equipment to do anything. You don't have to be an engineer to think things through or experiment. I'm not.

But I can see why you are afraid to. Blades are ridiculously expensive, given that the material costs are probably a few pennies each. I'd bet manufacturing costs are under a few dollars. If I were an engineer, I'd be tempted to make them - and skates too. Outrageous profit margins.

A well respected sharpener re-profiles and re-hollows all new blades. He claims blades are sometimes factory shipped with different hollows on left and right blades, and that they sometimes ship blades which differ substantially from the usual profile in non-constant ways. But another very good sharpener said that was true of MK, but not Ultima.

Whenever a blade is sharpened, it flattens and loses the sweet spot, if the sharpener isn't careful to retain the original profile - just like sanding a rectangular block of wood tends to round corners. I wish someone would post photocopies of new blades on the internet so we could all put them back.

I agree that the Pro-filer uses far less metal than machine sharpenings. Part of this is consistency - not all sharpening wheels actually have exactly the same shape, even if they are the same brand, model and nominal radius. Part of it is the slower grind allows you to reshape the metal, rather than just grind it away. Like using a "steel" on kitchen knives in between rarer occaisions of using a grinding stone.

Do you use water or oil as the lubricant? The instructions say oil, but some of the tool sharpening community claims water gives cleaner edges at hand sharpening speeds. Since I don't want a mess in my skate bag, I'm using water too.

Maybe you are just overthinking the spin thing and trying too hard? I've seen that to be the case as well, you try too hard and are all tensed up when you start spinning....that dooms it from the beginning. Then you try again, more frustrated and it just spirals down from there.

as for the profiler, I mostly use oil but my stone has soaked in water a little bit so the oil floats on top...gets wicked sharp that way! I love my profiler!!!! Which reminds me, time to go sharpen.....