I need help with my Waltz Jump, spin entry, and scratch spin!

[CreativeSkater]

Hello, I began skating four monthes ago. I am having trouble gaining height on my Waltz Jump. Whenever I try to jump really high, I slip up and almost fall backwards...and then when I am more careful, I don't get very much height. Also, I tend to hoist my right leg up to add more power, but a coach told me that this takes away from the power and I should keep my free leg straight throughout the jump (?) And my spin entries are so wobbly...sometimes they are okay, and sometimes they are a complete mess. I have been practicing hours and hours but never seem to improve...I think mostly it is trouble with having a deep enough outside edge and then translating that into the spin...any advice would be greatly appreciated!
p.s. Also, my scratch spins are coming slowwwly....I always get unbalanced just before my knee bends to bring my foot in front of my spinning leg....please help me! Thanks

[patatty]

For the waltz jump, try to think about rolling up onto your toe before taking off. It sounds like you are trying to jump before your toe pick touches the ice. I sometimes end up doing that when I'm rushing the takeoff edge on my axel attempts, and its a really bad feeling. As for the spins, I've struggled with the scratch spin for years and still have trouble centering it, so I'll leave that topic for somebody else to comment on.

[Sessy]

Sounds a little like your underlying problem for both is a lack of control over the edges and a lack of control over what your shoulders are doing. How are your outside and inside back and forward edges, backward spirals, 3-turns in both directions?

For the waltz jump, you have to take off off your toepick. You can practice it at home a little on the floor, jumping up off your toes, but it's scary on ice because you've learned so far that if you get up on your toepick you trip, right? Well not in this case. The upward momentum will make sure you can't trip.

The scratch spin, has also been a nightmare for me. I think I've made every mistake possible on it, lol.
Well, a few things that commonly go wrong: make sure you hold the entry edge so the tracing on the ice makes a half a circle before you begin to spin. This can be quite difficult, but many people rush into the spin and then they have to force the spin and this makes them unbalanced. It's kind of a let-it-happen thing, which is quite hard actually, I've got problems with it myself. Also try to turn your toe of the free foot out as you swing around, so the free foot circles around first, before you bring it in, and not a kicking motion of any kind. My first trainer really messed things up for me (and a couple of others) here by telling us the scratch spin was like the salchow. So I kept sorta kicking and also closing my hip before ever swinging around, and that just doesn't work. It's a smooth, all the way around you motion instead of in any actual direction.

With your arms, don't PUNCH into the spin, PULL into the spin. If it wasn't for my ballet teacher I'd never have gotten the spin at all! He made me aware of this.
For a counterclockwise spinner, what I've often seen (and done myself) at first is an attempt to use the right arm (left for clockwise spinners) to gain spinning momentum by literally punching into the spin. Not only does this tend to bring the shoulders out of alignment with the hips, it also creates a sudden vector motion in the direction of the punch, instead of around the rotational axis. This unbalances the spin. What's supposed to happen is using your left shoulder (right for clockwise spinners) to sort of pull you into the rotation, as in, you should follow your left shoulder into the rotation and you should sort of... feel the part that goes from your shoulder diagonally down to your spine - the part of the rib cage that's covering your lung from the back, so to speak. Except not really the ribcage but the muscles over it, you should feel them. Let those back muscles lead you into the rotation (not to the point of turning left at the waist though, the shoulders stay right over the hips! The shoulder takes the hip with it.) It's not really as apparent on the scratch spin as it is on some of the other spins, but still. You can actually spin this way for a couple of rotations and centered without ever using your right arm at all, just holding it down to your body, but you should bring your right arm around and pull it in. But no punching! Do it smoooooothly.
I was amazed myself at what difference this made for the feel of the spin. Suddenly I was spinning instead of making a series of 3-turns on the ice lol.

Also, don't look at the ice. Not on the approach for the spin, not on the entry edge, not during the spin, never. Not during your waltz jumps either! Look at the boardings, or the first row of seats along the skating rink if you have those. I know it seems like it'll make you dizzy at first, but then you realise you can control the spin much better because on a good spin, the boardings will sort of look the same height all around the circle and on a bad spin they will kinda wobble.

[CreativeSkater]

Great answers! Thank you to both of you :) I am skating tomorrow and am excited to try this new advice!

[kander]

Try not to get too discouraged. 4 months is a blink of an eye in the skateverse. I go into slumps that last longer than that. I've been skating my whole life and I'm still learning new things about the waltz jump and how to do spins. That's one of the great things about the sport. No matter how long you've been doing it there will always be something new to learn.

[doubletoe]

For the waltz jump, try to think about rolling up onto your toe before taking off. It sounds like you are trying to jump before your toe pick touches the ice. I sometimes end up doing that when I'm rushing the takeoff edge on my axel attempts, and its a really bad feeling. As for the spins, I've struggled with the scratch spin for years and still have trouble centering it, so I'll leave that topic for somebody else to comment on.

Exactly. You must roll all the way up to the toepick and point your toes hard as you take off. You can't jump flat-footed, which is exactly why elephants can't jump. ;) BTW, you should also point the toes of your other foot, since the toepick is not only the last thing to leave the ice on takeoff but should also the first thing to touch down on landing.

To add to Sessy's excellent advice on the scratch spin, make sure that you keep your free leg way behind you on the entrance edge, even crossed behind the skating leg so that you feel like a cat chasing its tail. Start on a line on the ice and make sure you are all the way back to the line before you start to bring the free leg around and start the spin. You can look at the tracings on the ice when you're done to see if your edge really made it back to the line. Try to make the circle so tiny and round that you feel like you're just turning around your own left shoulder rather than covering any distance on the ice. Bend deeply at the knee and ankle and that will also help tremendously. Everything should stay smooth and level--especially your shoulders--with no jerky motions.

[CreativeSkater]

Exactly. You must roll all the way up to the toepick and point your toes hard as you take off. You can't jump flat-footed, which is exactly why elephants can't jump. ;) BTW, you should also point the toes of your other foot, since the toepick is not only the last thing to leave the ice on takeoff but should also the first thing to touch down on landing.

To add to Sessy's excellent advice on the scratch spin, make sure that you keep your free leg way behind you on the entrance edge, even crossed behind the skating leg so that you feel like a cat chasing its tail. Start on a line on the ice and make sure you are all the way back to the line before you start to bring the free leg around and start the spin. You can look at the tracings on the ice when you're done to see if your edge really made it back to the line. Try to make the circle so tiny and round that you feel like you're just turning around your own left shoulder rather than covering any distance on the ice. Bend deeply at the knee and ankle and that will also help tremendously. Everything should stay smooth and level--especially your shoulders--with no jerky motions.


Wow....this is very new and interesting advice! Thank you! Also, thank you Kander for the encouragement :)

[doubletoe]

Wow....this is very new and interesting advice! Thank you! Also, thank you Kander for the encouragement :)

Hope it helps! :) Also, on the spin entry on the line, start with your feet in a T position (heel of spinning foot perpendicular to the instep of your other foot). As you bend and press into the ice to start your entrance edge, look over your leading shoulder (left shoulder if you spin CCW). You will want to look in the direction your edge is curving and gently lead with the arm and shoulder on that side. While you may pull your leading shoulder back a little on the entrance edge, be sure to keep shoulders completely level and parallel to the ice at all times.

[Sessy]

Listen to doubletoe. She's REALLY smart with skating she's got this way of analyzing it nobody else I know has. :)

[san]

Everyone has given really great advice--I just wanted to add a couple of tips that have really helped me.

On the scratch spin, my coach told me to feel like my leading arm is sweeping off a table (I spin CW, so that's my right arm). I leave my free leg and back arm back until I start coming around the circle, then I flex my free foot so it's leading with the heel. I find that really helps with both the snap and speed. The hip of the free leg is open at this point, too. Then, when I feel centered, I close up the free hip and start pulling in with my arms and free leg, still flexing the free foot so it's leading with the heel.

For the waltz jump, two things that have really helped me are 1) making sure the back shoulder doesn't come around before the takeoff and 2) doing an exercise where I hold a skate guard in the leading hand (I jump CCW, even though I spin CW, so that's my left hand), then I transfer the guard into my right hand at the top of my jump. The exercise forces you to have your arms in the correct position during the jump, which helps with the height.

BTW, you're doing great if you're working on these elements after only four months of skating!

[CreativeSkater]

Thank you :) These forums are so great... and the insight has been wonderful.