Proposed Moves Changes

[flying~camel]

USFS has posted the new proposed moves in the field changes at http://usfsa.org/Shell.asp?sid=42287.

IMHO, I like the idea of doing both directions of the 8-step consecutively, but I'm not so sure about the loops on the Intermediate test.

[phoenix]

Thanks for posting! I can't wait to look through them.

[Skate@Delaware]

glad to see (at this time) no proposed changes for the adult levels


yet.

[Stormy]

I was looking through these last night. I like the changes to the Novice test, although the step sequences on Senior look downright impossible (to me, lol). I like that they're at least trying to incorporate some of figures into MIF. I'll be very interested to see what people have to say about this at GC next year.

[Clarice]

Yeah, but any of us wanting to go beyond Gold MIF will have to contend with this. I wonder whether there would be any merit to having Standard, Adult and Masters standards for MIF the way they do for ice dance tests?

[CoachPA]

Thanks for the link!

There a several things I really like about these proposed MIF changes that I hope go through.

Preliminary: The fact that they are contemplating reducing the number of circles for the crossovers is great. I always have my kids warm-up their crossovers before their test this way, as it really does save some time.

The forward circle eights is a great addition to this test. As a coach who did figures when I was younger--then shortly thereafter saw MIF almost completely replace them--I can see a major difference in the skaters who have done figures and those who have not (body alignment, edge quality, control, etc.). Few moves now a days emphasize what figures brought to the sport and I'd love to see even a dabbling of figures come back, especially at the lower levels where a skater is still developing these qualities.

Pre-Juvenile: I like that the forward/backward perimeter crossover stroking is being cut down, but I'm not so sure I like the transition into the backward crossovers. Perhaps its the skater, but it seems as though there's far less forward crossovers than backward ones. I'd like to see a required three or so (forward and backward).

I agree that only one pass down the rink is needed for the 5-step mohawk. I never really understood why they made the skater go all the way around since both mohawks are covered on the first side.

Again, I love that the qualities of figures are carried over to this level in addition to the forward circle eights in Preliminary.

Juvenile: I'm not sure how I feel about the power circles being moved down, but I think that it'll definitely encourage more power at this level, which is always nice.

Intermediate: As a synchro coach, I like that twizzles are being introduced (finally!) And, I like that skaters will be required to perform inside and outside on both feet.

I'm also glad they're considering getting rid of the backward power threes.

This appears to be a challenging set of elements, and while many of the current moves are subject to being deleted or moved down a level, there's enough difficulty to here to keep this test as one that separates the easier moves (Juvenile and lower) from the more advanced that truly push a skater.

Novice: I'm lovin' the back inside/forward inside three-turns/rocker choctaw sequence! Wow! I'm glad to see they're eliminating the seemingly unnecessary backward/forward perimeter crossovers. After all, the judges are primarily focused on the quickness of turns rather than the crossovers. (Not that judges completely ignore them, but they're already expected to be good.)

Again, I'm all for those back twizzles!

And, yay for those brackets finally getting eliminated! When I was testing MIF, those were my nemesis and I was (un)lucky enough to have to skate them on Intermediate and Novice as that was about the time they had moved the striaght-line brackets up to Novice from Intermediate. I ended up never having to skate the current Intermediate brackets until I started teaching them to my skaters. (Um, way easier!)

Junior: The new straight line footwork sequence is awesome! Way to incorporate some intricate turns into a unique pattern. I can see how freestylers would enjoy this move, and how it can help them in developing footwork for their Intermediate and higher levels.

Senior: Well, I like how they incorporated all the turns from the lower levels, such a twizzles, for the new circular step. I like that it'll actually push skaters to skate at a senior level on another level beside quickness (edge quality, control, quickness, flow, etc.)

On the other hand, there are some changes that I'm not so crazy about.

Juvenile: I don't have an issue with the pattern of the 8-step; what concerns me is if skaters will be able to develop the ability to skate against the circle [with their back] as is emphasized on the current pattern.

Intermediate: I'm not so sure about those loops (as in skaters being able to successfully perform them) at this level. Perhaps introduce them at the Novice level.

Novice: That spiral pattern is just bizarre. Skaters are going to have to generate a lot of power to maintain their flow and speed, especially since the FI to BI spiral appears to leave little room for a true push.

Senior: That spiral sequence appears to be far easier than the current one since several turns toward the end of the move have changed and been replaced with that FO spiral.

Also, I feel its important to remember that many of the moves are clearly not at a passing standard (for instance, the forward/backward perimeter crossover stroking).

[Stormy]

Yeah, but any of us wanting to go beyond Gold MIF will have to contend with this. I wonder whether there would be any merit to having Standard, Adult and Masters standards for MIF the way they do for ice dance tests?

This is a BIG concern with me. I'm currently on Novice, and honestly have never done loops before, or even twizzles (forward only) really up until this year. Any adult wanting to go onto Novice from Gold will be introduced to a whole set of elements they've likely never had to do before. And standard track skaters who are in the middle of MIF tests will face the same issue.

Do you think older judges who are familiar with figures and judged them will be harder on tests with the loops and figure elements, rather than a judge who isn't as familiar with them?

[CoachPA]

And standard track skaters who are in the middle of MIF tests will face the same issue.

This is a very valid concern. I wonder a.) when these changes would go into effect and b.) if there will be some sort of phasing out, so to speak, where skaters on the current track or at a certain level will finish with the current MIF whereas skaters just beginning moves will start with the proposed MIF should they pass at GC.

I can see it being a bit of a set back for those skaters who get all the way to Novice or higher and then have to basically set themselves back by learning all the newly-added moves (twizzles, loops, etc.) I know at my rink there's a big push for skaters to finish their MIF ASAP, especially those at the Intermediate level and higher for this very reason. I, for one, have a skater on Novice and I'd love to see her get her Gold before these changes go into effect.

Do you think older judges who are familiar with figures and judged them will be harder on tests with the loops and figure elements, rather than a judge who isn't as familiar with them?

Well, the standards are likely the same, so it's possible. For example, on the loops, judges will still be looking for an even loop with no scratching or points, so I'm not so sure it's an issue of judging "harder" or simply upholding skaters to an established standard.

[Kim to the Max]

I, for one, have a skater on Novice and I'd love to see her get her Gold before these changes go into effect.

That is where I am at...I am hopefully testing my Novice in February, so ideally, I would like to finish up my Senior before these changes go into effect. GC is in May-ish, and I would anticipate these would go into effect in September if they pass, so that there could be coaching seminars on them...we'll see...if that is the case, that gives a little bit of time...not nearly enough for me to pass Novice, Junior, and Senior, but a little bit of time none the less...

[CoachPA]

That is where I am at...I am hopefully testing my Novice in February, so ideally, I would like to finish up my Senior before these changes go into effect. GC is in May-ish, and I would anticipate these would go into effect in September if they pass, so that there could be coaching seminars on them...we'll see...if that is the case, that gives a little bit of time...not nearly enough for me to pass Novice, Junior, and Senior, but a little bit of time none the less...

I belive you're correct with the dates that the changes would go into effect should they pass. I believe September was the proposed effective date at the last GC when the moves did not go through.

[RachelSk8er]

I think I might learn the step sequence on junior, it looks fun!

I'm on junior, this should push me to get off my behind and finish MIF before the changes go through...although I've been saying I'm going to really focus and finish them for quite a few years now (ha ha).

I've been working on loops and twizzles for a while now d/t having to skate under IJS in synchro the past few years, the intermediate patterns are pretty close to what I (and a lot of the skaters at my rink) do down the length of the rink in warm-up. If coaches have had kids working on these already like they are at my rink, it might actually not be too bad for those intermediate or novice-ish kids who now have to test them. Although the junior loop pattern doesn't look terribly fun...

BUT there are a lot of adults or college-age skaters who got into skating at the end of figures and are just now learning loops, or coaches of younger skaters who never taught them.

I really just wish they'd scrap adult MIF tests, make it all go along the same tests as standard (from pre-pre thru senior) but with a lower passing average, and make it like dance tests. You can test standard, but choose to switch to adult test track at any time (and do all tests there on out at the adult standard). And now that we have more of a natural progression from adult gold to masters in terms of competing, do it with the free tests, too. Hopefully this is something that will change as more and more of us who have skated for many years grow up and stay active in the sport through college and afterward. I think it would make everything much less confusing, make it even easier to transition into adult skating for those who skated as kids/teenagers. Given the growth in college skating programs and competitive opportunities (intercollegiate conference, collegiate nationals, colleges fielding synchro teams at the junior, senior, collegiate and open collegiate levels), adult skating is only going to continue to grow.

Even leave Juvenile as an "adult gold" distinction people are considered having an adult gold medal for....I don't see a problem with that, getting to that level for the true adult skater who didn't skate their whole lives (or maybe didn't start until they were a teen or college student) is a HUGE accomplishment that should be rewarded.

[phoenix]

Hmmmm...I'm on Intermediate now, & could very possibly pass them before Sept. 1. BUT--if I have want to be able to teach them maybe I'd be better off doing the new patterns myself so as to be more current.

I can't do FO loops.....at all!! Uh oh.

[flying~camel]

I really just wish they'd scrap adult MIF tests, make it all go along the same tests as standard (from pre-pre thru senior) but with a lower passing average, and make it like dance tests.
...
And now that we have more of a natural progression from adult gold to masters in terms of competing, do it with the free tests, too.

ITA! IMHO, it would create a better foundation for each moves level (e.g. learning power pulls BEFORE cross strokes). Plus, it would probably be a heck of a lot easier on the judges not having to remember that adults have different patterns than the kids!

[vesperholly]

I'm on Senior ... thank god! Taking out the quick mohawks on the spiral pattern actually makes it a whole lot easier, but that step sequence is SKARY. I stink at toe pick steps.

It concerns me that there is no stroking whatsoever after Juvenile. Stroking fundamentals should mature and develop, hence the perimiter stroking on Intermediate and Novice, and the power circles on Junior. As for loops ... young coaches who never did figure are going to be at a distinct disadvantage here. It kind of makes me laugh that after the rush rush rush to get rid of figures and pretend they never existed, lots of figure elements are being reintroduced.

When these moves were proposed at GC 2008, implementation was scheduled for September 2009, not 2008. Perhaps it will follow the same time frame, implementation in September 2010? Are any of these proposed changes even different from the 2008 ones?

[phoenix]

When these moves were proposed at GC 2008, implementation was scheduled for September 2009, not 2008. Perhaps it will follow the same time frame, implementation in September 2010?

Good point, I think you're right. That may well be what happens here.

Are any of these proposed changes even different from the 2008 ones?

Yes, hugely, completely different! Better, IMHO. Much, much better. The progression makes more sense, seems better thought out, and doesn't throw things in at seemingly random places.

[CoachPA]

Yes, hugely, completely different! Better, IMHO. Much, much better. The progression makes more sense, seems better thought out, and doesn't throw things in at seemingly random places.

I wholeheartedly agree! I think this may have been the necessary revision to get these new moves approved.

[singerskates]

Can we Canadians take your Moves in the Field in place of our Skills? They look so much easier than our Skills. For instance, our Preliminary Skills cover most of the stuff all the way up to Juvenile Moves in The Field. Junior Bronze has some things all the way up to Novice Moves in the Field.

[icedancer2]

Do you think older judges who are familiar with figures and judged them will be harder on tests with the loops and figure elements, rather than a judge who isn't as familiar with them?

There is always a learning curve when asked to judge new elements. These new MITF that are based on figures look so far removed from the actual figures that I doubt that there will be many problems for the judges learning how to judge them (once the standard has been established) - I mean, loops done on a line? Circle 8s where you go immediately from a FO 8 to a FI 8? No tracings?

It reminds me of when I first started trial judging Moves - I had never ready seen Moves done, but had done figures as a kid - the 3s from the Preliminary-Juvenile tests seemed absurd to me - turns not really on the top of the lobe, not really clean turns, no tracings, etc. but in time I got to know what the standards were and what I needed to be looking for and emphasizing at each level. Having done figures gave me a better of idea of how the skater might correct certain mistakes, but there is no way that these new Moves resemble figures except in a very superficial way.

I may have looked through these lists too quickly, but does it seem as though they have eliminated the Waltz 8? I though that was a good move for emphasizing control of turn and edge. Maybe I didn't see it on the list.

[Debbie S]

I really just wish they'd scrap adult MIF tests, make it all go along the same tests as standard (from pre-pre thru senior) but with a lower passing average, and make it like dance tests. (snip) Hopefully this is something that will change as more and more of us who have skated for many years grow up and stay active in the sport through college and afterward. I think it would make everything much less confusing, make it even easier to transition into adult skating for those who skated as kids/teenagers. What about the adult skaters that truly started skating as adults, at 30, 40, or older? I imagine it must be hard for someone who started skating as a kid to put themselves in the shoes (or skates, lol) of someone who didn't, but realize that some of the moves (like the consec spirals and alt 3s on the Prelim test) are going to be very hard for adults who didn't skate as kids to master at passing standard. Those back circle 8s on the Pre-Juv test look hard, but I don't think I'd have a problem with a Silver skater doing those. But keep in mind there is a reason for some of the standard track moves not being part of the adult track, or at the adult track at a diff level (Pre-Pre spirals on Silver instead of Pre-Bronze).

I hope the changes don't go into effect until 2010, so that way I might have a chance to pass Gold and at least try Int. I wasn't planning on testing Novice or higher anyway, so no difference to me there.

I may have looked through these lists too quickly, but does it seem as though they have eliminated the Waltz 8? I though that was a good move for emphasizing control of turn and edge. Maybe I didn't see it on the list.
No, it's still there. There were no changes to the Pre-Prelim test.

[vesperholly]

It reminds me of when I first started trial judging Moves - I had never ready seen Moves done, but had done figures as a kid - the 3s from the Preliminary-Juvenile tests seemed absurd to me - turns not really on the top of the lobe, not really clean turns, no tracings, etc.
Skaters who don't do clean 3 turns on the top of the lobe shouldn't pass a moves test, either!

[RachelSk8er]

What about the adult skaters that truly started skating as adults, at 30, 40, or older? I imagine it must be hard for someone who started skating as a kid to put themselves in the shoes (or skates, lol) of someone who didn't, but realize that some of the moves (like the consec spirals and alt 3s on the Prelim test) are going to be very hard for adults who didn't skate as kids to master at passing standard. Those back circle 8s on the Pre-Juv test look hard, but I don't think I'd have a problem with a Silver skater doing those. But keep in mind there is a reason for some of the standard track moves not being part of the adult track, or at the adult track at a diff level (Pre-Pre spirals on Silver instead of Pre-Bronze).


But that's why there would be an adult passing standard. Or leave pre-bronze-gold as is, but offer a slightly lower passing average for intermediate-senior (but I think if you're doing that, it's silly to have some of the same things repeated from gold to intermediate, like the brackets and slide chase pattern).

I actually think the consecutive 3s are important. They are HARD, even, in my opinion, harder than the double 3s (those two should be switched around in terms of what test they fall on) because it takes a lot of control to do them properly and hold the edge back to the axis. But they are important in properly learning to execute a 3-turn.

The spirals are maybe not terribly important, although again, I think they do a lot in terms of teaching edge control, posture, and stability. I obviously wouldn't expect an adult to get the leg up as high as I'd expect a kid (just a recognizable attempt at a spiral position), but I think the pattern in itself does have a function.

It was interesting--a coach in my area just out of college and just starting to work with some adult skaters was working with an adult (as in true adult skater who didn't put skates on until age 30) working on gold dances who wasn't doing clean 3-turns in one of the dances, he had a scrape/slide on the turn. This coach said to me (I happened to be right there at the boards taking a sip of water) that he noticed adult skaters really struggle with doing clean, fast 3-turns properly, even as they get into higher levels (particularly dance), and asked if there was anything in the adult test structure that could be causing this. My thought initially was maybe not having to solo dances if you were testing adult track (and in general, not having to solo the European at all any more...you can't fake your way through a solo European without strong, solid, proper 3-turns). I wasn't familiar enough with adult MIF tests so I didn't even think of the lack of the prelim tests...but I wonder if this and some of the other patterns that are "missing" have something to do with it.

[Debbie S]

I actually think the consecutive 3s are important. They are HARD, even, in my opinion, harder than the double 3s (those two should be switched around in terms of what test they fall on) because it takes a lot of control to do them properly and hold the edge back to the axis. But they are important in properly learning to execute a 3-turn. Are you saying that the double 3s should be on Prelim and the alt 3s should be on Juv? Um, shouldn't skaters (adult or kid) should learn solo forward and back 3s (Pre-Juv) before they start on double 3s? :??

FI and FO 3s are still on the Pre-Bronze test, it's just a different pattern that doesn't require that BI-FO transition at the line - that was the adult-unfriendly part of that move, not the actual 3-turn.


This coach said to me (I happened to be right there at the boards taking a sip of water) that he noticed adult skaters really struggle with doing clean, fast 3-turns properly, even as they get into higher levels (particularly dance), and asked if there was anything in the adult test structure that could be causing this. My thought initially was maybe not having to solo dances if you were testing adult track (and in general, not having to solo the European at all any more...you can't fake your way through a solo European without strong, solid, proper 3-turns). I wasn't familiar enough with adult MIF tests so I didn't even think of the lack of the prelim tests...but I wonder if this and some of the other patterns that are "missing" have something to do with it.Well, I can't comment on dance, but in terms of MIF, 3-turns are part of every adult MIF test. I don't know what level that adult is on in MIF, but it's hard to pass Silver and Gold (and the lower levels, too, depending on who's judging) w/o proper 3-turns. Like in all tests, if 1 turn is skidded or scraped and the rest are clean, the move generally gets passed, but if the problem is present throughout, the move usually gets failed. As someone who had to take Silver MIF 4 times, I can attest to that. ;)

[phoenix]

Wheeee, I tried the new Intermediate twizzles tonight! They're challenging, but definitely doable, and actually not as hard as I'd thought they might be. (I should temper that statement w/ the comment that I've worked on twizzles consistently for 4 years.)

Though I can already see where people will struggle most--on the FO twizzles, you have to check out on a back inside edge, and then step to a forward outside edge--it's the exact same step as the alternating 3's in prelim--just swap out a 2 1/2 twizzle instead of the single 3 turn! Not easy.

Now, the loops on the other hand....who can teach me FO loops??? Anybody have any exercises to build up to them?

[coskater64]

Loops just take time, my coach has her 8th figure test and she taught me loops quickly, it just take a lot of practice, knee bend and timing. The model on the jr moves was way off center and placement from the pattern. It will be interesting to see if this even gets out of the committee, last year it got killed/pulled before it even got the floor to be voted on.

8O8O

[sk8lady]

What about the adult skaters that truly started skating as adults, at 30, 40, or older? I imagine it must be hard for someone who started skating as a kid to put themselves in the shoes (or skates, lol) of someone who didn't, but realize that some of the moves (like the consec spirals and alt 3s on the Prelim test) are going to be very hard for adults who didn't skate as kids to master at passing standard.

I'm with you. I didn't start skating till I was almost 30 and didn't start testing till I was almost 40 since there was no local club, no coach who would travel to tests, and I was too busy having a baby and working to spend much time driving around the state looking for a coach and a club and traveling to them. It takes me--and I see this in a lot of the adult skaters who are learning for the first time as adults--substantially longer to learn new skills and retrain my body to do things it seems to think are impossible than anyone under 30, or even 35. The adults I coach who skated or did gymnastics as kids pick things up at about twice the rate as those who did not.

I'm also finding that the deterioration rate of my body is increasing exponentially every year. My shoulders seem to be disintegrating and I wonder if my back and knees are far behind. I've started trying to do at least 3 of the Silver moves--cross-strokes, power pulls, and the back outside 3 patterns--without stopping, the way I would have to in a test, and I really don't think there is a lot of hope that when I'm another year older I will have the endurance to get through all of those plus the 8 step (I'm not worried about the spirals). I am just exhausted after I do them. It's not that I'm in bad shape--I skate about 10 hours a week including coaching and refereeing hockey--it's just that the extensive, repeated pressure on my mature joints and muscles is really hard on me! I don't expect to ever be able to pass the standard moves and by the age I will be when (if) I pass Gold moves I will be done. I am already probably done testing freestyle because I can't consistently do another jump, and let me just say that I am trying like HECK to do it even though my legs hurt ALL THE TIME and I have arthritis in two of my toes, and if adult moves are abolished I might as well quit the USFS.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but I get so frustrated with folks who don't realize how incredibly hard adults who did not skate as kids have to work to get through ANY tests, including adult tests. Maybe there should just be a separate adult tracks for people who passed ANY tests under the age of 30 and those who are starting after age 30.

[RachelSk8er]

Are you saying that the double 3s should be on Prelim and the alt 3s should be on Juv? Um, shouldn't skaters (adult or kid) should learn solo forward and back 3s (Pre-Juv) before they start on double 3s? :??

FI and FO 3s are still on the Pre-Bronze test, it's just a different pattern that doesn't require that BI-FO transition at the line - that was the adult-unfriendly part of that move, not the actual 3-turn.


I regularly do both in warm-up and I think the double 3s are a lot easier than the alternating 3s because they don't have that BI-FO transition. On the doubles, once you get the first 3 around, checking the 2nd 3 and the transition between feet is a lot easier than the transition on the alternating 3s. I've heard the same from other coaches at PSA seminars I've been to--that they should either be the other way around or together on the same test.


Tip for learning loops: Work with a coach who was good at figures back in the day (and not a younger coach who did either very little figures or none at all). They usually know how to teach them well. They're tricky, but the right coach can get you to do them. On a side note, Tonia Kwiatkowski coaches at my rink, and one day a few weeks ago she had a little free time on a session d/t a cancellaton so she just started doing old figures patterns, her loops were textbook perfect. It was so cool to watch. A lot of the kids/teens didn't even really understand what the heck she was doing, since they had heard of figures but never saw someone doing them.

[coskater64]

Yeah for loops!!:twisted::twisted:

[Stormy]

Tip for learning loops: Work with a coach who was good at figures back in the day (and not a younger coach who did either very little figures or none at all). They usually know how to teach them well. They're tricky, but the right coach can get you to do them. On a side note, Tonia Kwiatkowski coaches at my rink, and one day a few weeks ago she had a little free time on a session d/t a cancellaton so she just started doing old figures patterns, her loops were textbook perfect. It was so cool to watch. A lot of the kids/teens didn't even really understand what the heck she was doing, since they had heard of figures but never saw someone doing them.

My chorographer showed them to me, trying to get me to put one in my program after exiting a back sit spin (YARITE!). I'll really have to start working on them but I did convince her to take it out for now. She does teach them well and she passed her 4th figure. We havea fun talk about figures and how the judges would get out there on tests on their hands and knees to inspect the figures, and how you had to draw the circles perfectly without a scribe. Sounds HARD!

I'd love to watch Tonia do figures, she was a big favorite of mine back in the day and that'd be a treat to watch her. I'm LOL'ing at the kids not really knowing what she was doing.

[Ellyn]

I can't do FO loops.....at all!! Uh oh.

Huh, my coach just started trying to teach them all to me.

I can now do LFO loop most of the time, sometimes pretty nice ones and sometimes not so nice, but after a couple days of practice more of them do loop than fail completely.

On the other hand I can't do RFO or either of the forward inside ones at all.

I can do RBO but not LBO, and I can do both of the back inside ones, preferably from the exit of a forward outside three.

So of 8 possible loops, I can now do half of them, but only one forward loop. Nor could I possible attempt the proposed junior back loop pattern.

But that's why there would be an adult passing standard. Or leave pre-bronze-gold as is, but offer a slightly lower passing average for intermediate-senior (but I think if you're doing that, it's silly to have some of the same things repeated from gold to intermediate, like the brackets and slide chase pattern).

Yeah, either way.

This coach said to me (I happened to be right there at the boards taking a sip of water) that he noticed adult skaters really struggle with doing clean, fast 3-turns properly, even as they get into higher levels (particularly dance), and asked if there was anything in the adult test structure that could be causing this. My thought initially was maybe not having to solo dances if you were testing adult track (and in general, not having to solo the European at all any more...you can't fake your way through a solo European without strong, solid, proper 3-turns). I wasn't familiar enough with adult MIF tests so I didn't even think of the lack of the prelim tests...but I wonder if this and some of the other patterns that are "missing" have something to do with it.

Well, for adult ice dancers going through the adult dance test structure there's no requirement to test moves in the field at all, either adult or standard. So it's possible that this skater and others the coach was thinking of had only ever tested compulsory dances, which don't include all the turns but do include plenty of forward outside threes if that's where the issue was.

Maybe there should just be a separate adult tracks for people who passed ANY tests under the age of 30 and those who are starting after age 30.

Heh. Well, in that case can an adult skater who passed only one or two tests as a kid switch over to the adult-only track when s/he gets to higher levels?

I only passed preliminary figures as a kid. I passed standard pre-pre and preliminary moves as an adult (because I'd already passed bronze freestyle as an adult before adult moves were introduced), and I'll be happy to take either prejuvenile or silver moves, or both, once I get my back threes consistent enough. I think I could do the new back circle eight move tomorrow better than most kids who have passed preliminary and are working on prejuvenile moves, although once this proposal passes and they learn it and start practicing more often than I do they'd quickly catch up on that skill. An adult who never did figures would be behind both me and the kids on that move.

Or I could take the silver and maybe eventually gold moves as an adult with some kid-skating experience. But given my level of fitness, injuries, and the fact that I'll be well into my 50s before I'd be ready to test the gold much less intermediate moves, I wouldn't want the fact that I skated for a couple years as a teenager and passed one test to class me with 22-year-olds who started skating in high school and never stopped rather than with other middle-aged adults who never tested as kids but may have had other advantages in physical fitness.

Something like the dance adult and masters standards would partially solve that problem. But there are far more variables in skating history and physical condition across the age range 21-80+ than in the age range 5-20, despite the wide variety in skater size in that younger range, so there will never be a completely even playing field.

[jskater49]

I rushed to pass my pre-bronze FS to get granfathered in before adult moves tests came about because alternating 3s were on the adult pre-bronze moves at the time and I knew I'd never be able to pass that test. I've passed bronze moves and my 3 turns have GREATLY improved but I still can't hold the exit to the line and start the next turn. Now you can "should" on me all you like but the fact is if they had left the alternating turns on the pre-bronze test and I had to take it I would not be a better skater today, I'd be a worse skater because I woud not even try to pass any more tests.

joelle

[dbny]

I rushed to pass my pre-bronze FS to get granfathered in before adult moves tests came about because alternating 3s were on the adult pre-bronze moves at the time and I knew I'd never be able to pass that test. I've passed bronze moves and my 3 turns have GREATLY improved but I still can't hold the exit to the line and start the next turn. Now you can "should" on me all you like but the fact is if they had left the alternating turns on the pre-bronze test and I had to take it I would not be a better skater today, I'd be a worse skater because I woud not even try to pass any more tests.

joelle

Those F alt threes on the line in Prelim have been a big stumbling block for me for years! I'm getting closer, but still no cigar. If they would but allow a simple toe tap, I bet a lot of us could get through them. The addition of the figure eights makes me :lol:, as I have been working on them anyway, and could probably pass them in that context.

[myste12]

Wheeee, I tried the new Intermediate twizzles tonight! They're challenging, but definitely doable, and actually not as hard as I'd thought they might be. (I should temper that statement w/ the comment that I've worked on twizzles consistently for 4 years.)

Though I can already see where people will struggle most--on the FO twizzles, you have to check out on a back inside edge, and then step to a forward outside edge--it's the exact same step as the alternating 3's in prelim--just swap out a 2 1/2 twizzle instead of the single 3 turn! Not easy.

Now, the loops on the other hand....who can teach me FO loops??? Anybody have any exercises to build up to them?

I absolutely agree everything you said about the Intermediate twizzles. I tried them today, and they went much more smoothly than I expected. Actually, I thought they were kind of fun. The BI to FO transition did take a lot of control though.

I thought the forward loop pattern was really tough. I can do the loops (most of the time), and they're fairly well placed, but holding the exit edge back to the blue line without wobbling, touching the free foot down, or grinding to a halt??? Yikes. That's going to take some work. Plus the patterns shows that 8 loops should get you all the way across the width of the rink. 8 loops got me closer to 3/4 of the way across the rink. I think this is a really challenging move for the intermediate level.

[icedancer2]

Skaters who don't do clean 3 turns on the top of the lobe shouldn't pass a moves test, either!

Well, true on some level, but there is "clean" and then there is "figures clean" - no changes of edge or flats, smooth, round, even "shoulders" (of the 3), no spoons or... whatever else they call all of those things that made a figure 3 not clean - but yes, of course I know what you mean - scraped 3s are not particularly accepatble...

[vesperholly]

I tried the new Senior moves today. The spiral pattern is now stupidly easy. Can I do this spiral pattern with the old circular pattern, pretty please?

The circular pattern is definitely more difficult, but I do like the twizzles (whee!) and the BI counter/FI rocker on the same foot. The tough parts for me were the toe pick steps, which I've always been rotten at, and the double rocker right near the end where there used to be a step behind.

What I noticed the most is that since there are a grillion steps in this move, you really have to go slow to fit everything in. I could've done a circle and a half, doing it at "regular" circle pattern speed. It doesn't develop any kind of speed or push, something that concerns me with the elimination of all the stroking.

[dbny]

Well, true on some level, but there is "clean" and then there is "figures clean" - no changes of edge or flats, smooth, round, even "shoulders" (of the 3), no spoons or... whatever else they call all of those things that made a figure 3 not clean - but yes, of course I know what you mean - scraped 3s are not particularly accepatble...

Has anyone heard anything about the figure 8's? Are the circles supposed to be within 3 inches of each other as in figures? I'm definitely OK if that's not a big issue, but will need significantly more practice if it is.

[coskater64]

I had my coach take me through the 2 new Junior moves and while they are difficult they are actually pretty fun. The back inside loops are easy but the steps into them are pretty difficult and require a lot of bend and core strength, the outside loops are easier than they might seem. I've managed the right foot footwork pattern and will try the left wednesday but all in all I think these are pretty doable and will definitely build good skills for all skaters.

8O8O

[icedancer2]

Has anyone heard anything about the figure 8's? Are the circles supposed to be within 3 inches of each other as in figures? I'm definitely OK if that's not a big issue, but will need significantly more practice if it is.

You mean the tracings? If you look at the videos there are no tracings. You do an outside 8 first and then an inside 8 - all within the same "figure" - well, I suppose you could do the inside 8 on the "tracing" of the outside 8 but I doubt if it will be done that way - no one will be out there measuring 3" - (actually I've never heard 3" -mostly the tracings should be as close to each other as possible!) -- maybe 3" is a roller-figure rule?

[dbny]

You mean the tracings? If you look at the videos there are no tracings. You do an outside 8 first and then an inside 8 - all within the same "figure" - well, I suppose you could do the inside 8 on the "tracing" of the outside 8 but I doubt if it will be done that way - no one will be out there measuring 3" - (actually I've never heard 3" -mostly the tracings should be as close to each other as possible!) -- maybe 3" is a roller-figure rule?

Yes, tracings, the word deserted me :oops:. My coach said 3" was the passing standard for tracings in the figures tests. Of course, those judges are not going to go out and measure :roll:! And I was thinking of the FI 8 tracing being right on the FO 8 tracing. Guess I'm thinking that way because when I practice them, that's what I'm striving for.

[patatty]

For those of you who are familiar with the current novice moves: Are the new ones that much harder? I'm not familiar with any of the patterns, so I can't really tell. I was talking about the proposals with my coach yesterday and she is confident that I can get through Intermediate pretty soon (I passed Gold moves in May and have been working on Intermediate since then). Her question to me was whether I wanted to push to test Intermediate right away and try to get through Novice before the changes go into effect. It sounds overly ambitious for me, but if there is a huge difference in difficulty, I might give it a try.

[RachelSk8er]

For those of you who are familiar with the current novice moves: Are the new ones that much harder? I'm not familiar with any of the patterns, so I can't really tell. I was talking about the proposals with my coach yesterday and she is confident that I can get through Intermediate pretty soon (I passed Gold moves in May and have been working on Intermediate since then). Her question to me was whether I wanted to push to test Intermediate right away and try to get through Novice before the changes go into effect. It sounds overly ambitious for me, but if there is a huge difference in difficulty, I might give it a try.

I don't think they're harder. They actually took 2 patterns, each foot (the quick rocker choctaws with stroking down the sides in each direction and the FI-BO 3 turns with stroking down the sides in each direction)--4 laps around the rink basically, and combined the WHOLE thing into one serpentine pattern with a lobe on each foot of the FI-BO 3s and then a lobe on each foot of the quick rocker choctaws. You onlyl have to do 1 lobe of each foot versus 2 end patterns on each foot the "old" way. I think this actually makes the rocker choctaws easier, because the current way of having to do them, you need to keep them a little more flat going across the short axis (to fit that in and the stroking for a skater with the strength of someone doing novice MIF). With the new pattern you can curve the arc you're doing them on more naturally. Not to mention this cuts down the time for the test drastically...novice is a LONG test as-is. The pattern will be a pain in the butt to practice on a crowded session, but whatever.

They also got rid of the stupid bracket-3-bracket pattern (so jealous, I had to do that twice, on both intermediate AND novice back in the day).

The new twizzle pattern doesn't look too terrible for someone who's been working on twizzles, but that may just be because I personally find backward twizzles much easier than forward (we always did backward in synchro on my last team so that may be why). I'd rather to that twizzle pattern that stupid old bracket-3-bracket.

Spiral pattern doesn't look any more difficult than the old one, either.

[CoachPA]

I don't think they're harder. They actually took 2 patterns, each foot (the quick rocker choctaws with stroking down the sides in each direction and the FI-BO 3 turns with stroking down the sides in each direction)--4 laps around the rink basically, and combined the WHOLE thing into one serpentine pattern with a lobe on each foot of the FI-BO 3s and then a lobe on each foot of the quick rocker choctaws. You onlyl have to do 1 lobe of each foot versus 2 end patterns on each foot the "old" way. I think this actually makes the rocker choctaws easier, because the current way of having to do them, you need to keep them a little more flat going across the short axis (to fit that in and the stroking for a skater with the strength of someone doing novice MIF). With the new pattern you can curve the arc you're doing them on more naturally. Not to mention this cuts down the time for the test drastically...novice is a LONG test as-is. The pattern will be a pain in the butt to practice on a crowded session, but whatever.

I agree with you on the pattern changes. I don't know how many skaters I teach that can't grasp that the rocker choctaws and FI-BO three-turns are still on a curve...just a really awkward curve! :lol: I think that the new patterns will allow for a more natural execution.

They also got rid of the stupid bracket-3-bracket pattern (so jealous, I had to do that twice, on both intermediate AND novice back in the day).

I know! I had to do the same thing when I tested those! In fact, I never had to do the current Intermediate pattern of brackets until I began teaching them. Way, way easier.

[vesperholly]

I agree with you on the pattern changes. I don't know how many skaters I teach that can't grasp that the rocker choctaws and FI-BO three-turns are still on a curve...just a really awkward curve! :lol: I think that the new patterns will allow for a more natural execution.
I don't know, there's something to be said for having enough control to do the steps on a big circle. I can do the quick mohawks from Senior in a little spinny circle easily, but keeping them controlled enough to do in the patterns is more challenging.

[daisies]

I'm late to the discussion, but I wanted to express my love for the changes! It's about time they incorporated loops and twizzles. I think Intermediate is the perfect place to introduce loops since in figures they were introduced on the 3rd test, which is the Intermediate level. And the earlier the better, especially since loops and twizzles will be integral if skaters want to get higher levels on step sequences in IJS.

[doubletoe]

I'm late to the discussion, but I wanted to express my love for the changes! It's about time they incorporated loops and twizzles. I think Intermediate is the perfect place to introduce loops since in figures they were introduced on the 3rd test, which is the Intermediate level. And the earlier the better, especially since loops and twizzles will be integral if skaters want to get higher levels on step sequences in IJS.

I agree. . . but am annoyed that the changes are going to force me to, er, "skate or get off the pot" on my Intermediate MIF test! :roll:

[RachelSk8er]

I agree with you on the pattern changes. I don't know how many skaters I teach that can't grasp that the rocker choctaws and FI-BO three-turns are still on a curve...just a really awkward curve! :lol: I think that the new patterns will allow for a more natural execution.



I know! I had to do the same thing when I tested those! In fact, I never had to do the current Intermediate pattern of brackets until I began teaching them. Way, way easier.

Not only is it easier and but it actually teaches brackets on a lobe like they are supposed to be, not the bracket-3-bracket you can get away with doing practically flat, which is also exactly how we did them in synchro for years until IJS, so I never really learned how to do a real bracket. Until I had to study for my PSA BA exam 3 yrs ago and went and actually learned the current Int pattern (which I also never had to do), I couldn't have told you what edges were actually used in a bracket.

If anyone has any questions on the new moves patterns, I know one of the committee members and will gladly forward them to her.

The coach of my old synchro team (Holly Teets of the Crystallettes) is on the committee. She posted this in a similar new MIF pattern thread on synchroboards.com:

Please believe me when I tell you that this committee is packed with members of all disciplines working together to improve the test structure for moves in the best interest of training all of our athletes. I have never seen such an open forum welcoming the thoughts and comments of everyone in our sport, nor have I ever seen the availability to review the work of a committee in written form AND video of all proposed changes. I am very proud to be involved.

The changes are mostly mild/minimal changes of the current moves, deletion of some moves and a few new moves that should be very easy to learn with the data provided already. Yes the twizzles on intermediate will be challenging, but please remember the moves are set up as a methodical progression of learning skills. It is expected to see the skaters perform the twizzles on the intermediate test somewhat introductory and then see the progression of skill when then they appear again at the higher levels. Think of the expectation of the three turns on preliminary test and then pre-juvenile, juvenile, and intemediate... Same idea.

[CoachPA]

I don't know, there's something to be said for having enough control to do the steps on a big circle. I can do the quick mohawks from Senior in a little spinny circle easily, but keeping them controlled enough to do in the patterns is more challenging.

This move is not necessarily designed to be skated on a "little spinny circle", which would not allow for adequate ice coverage, so skaters will still need to have that control to perform the steps on the gradual curve of the new pattern, plus the control to execute the turns with the required quickness.

On a bit of an unrelated note, I had one of my skaters who's currently on her Preliminary MIF test out the new pattern for the forward and backward crossovers and she absolutely loved them! ("That was so much easier," she told me.)

I then had her try out the forward circle 8, which she liked as well.

[RachelSk8er]

This move is not necessarily designed to be skated on a "little spinny circle", which would not allow for adequate ice coverage, so skaters will still need to have that control to perform the steps on the gradual curve of the new pattern, plus the control to execute the turns with the required quickness.

On a bit of an unrelated note, I had one of my skaters who's currently on her Preliminary MIF test out the new pattern for the forward and backward crossovers and she absolutely loved them! ("That was so much easier," she told me.)

I then had her try out the forward circle 8, which she liked as well.

Right. The arcs in the new move aren't small, those 4 big lobes cover the entire ice surface, but they allow the skater to curve the moves more naturally rather than having to keep them flat as before because you ran out of enough room to arc them with the stroking that was involved.

[Kim to the Max]

Right. The arcs in the new move aren't small, those 4 big lobes cover the entire ice surface, but they allow the skater to curve the moves more naturally rather than having to keep them flat as before because you ran out of enough room to arc them with the stroking that was involved.

I regularly hit the boards on my rocker/choctaws :( both directions!! I just can't seem to keep them flat enough....

[vesperholly]

I regularly hit the boards on my rocker/choctaws :( both directions!! I just can't seem to keep them flat enough....
I think the idea on these is to keep the lobes of the stroking deep so that you start the end pattern earlier. If the stroking is more diagonal, it'll screw up your end pattern big time. I did the opening rocker just prior to the hockey dot, which helped keep the end pattern rounder.

[RachelSk8er]

I think the idea on these is to keep the lobes of the stroking deep so that you start the end pattern earlier. If the stroking is more diagonal, it'll screw up your end pattern big time. I did the opening rocker just prior to the hockey dot, which helped keep the end pattern rounder.

I used to skate in a shorter-than-normal rink (about 15' shorter) back when I was working on this test. That really sucked, there was nothing you could really do other than hardly push on the stroking. (And this was how I fell out the zamboni door at the end of the rink and broke a rib.)

[ibreakhearts66]

I regularly hit the boards on my rocker/choctaws :( both directions!! I just can't seem to keep them flat enough....

I hit the boards on the just STROKING. Those back crossovers from pre-juv that are used for Intermediate and Novice? Yeah, crashes straight into the boards on my test :frus:

[Morgail]

I hit the boards on the just STROKING. Those back crossovers from pre-juv that are used for Intermediate and Novice? Yeah, crashes straight into the boards on my test :frus:

I regularly hit the boards on my rocker/choctaws :( both directions!! I just can't seem to keep them flat enough....

I hit the boards (rather gracefully) at the end of the power 3s on my Bronze Moves test. And at least once a month or so, I hit the boards (and splat ungracefully) on the first BO-FI double 3 on Gold Moves. I've also hit the boards coming out of lutzes when I hang on to the leading edge too long. I like to say that I'm just making sure I'm using ALL the ice suface:lol:

[Kim to the Max]

I think the idea on these is to keep the lobes of the stroking deep so that you start the end pattern earlier. If the stroking is more diagonal, it'll screw up your end pattern big time. I did the opening rocker just prior to the hockey dot, which helped keep the end pattern rounder.

I hit the boards on the just STROKING. Those back crossovers from pre-juv that are used for Intermediate and Novice? Yeah, crashes straight into the boards on my test :frus:

vesperholly, I definitely agree...coach is a stickler for the back stroking hitting the 90...and I start my first outside rocker to get into the pattern is usually following the circle with the first rocker/choctaw at the dot....I also hit the boards/hugged the boards when I skated in Milwaukee at the Pettit Center...and that rink is LONGER! Oh well...

ibreakhearts66 - yes, everything comes back to haunt you!! which is good because that shows that the skills build on each other!! However, the prospect of doing the power circles again on Junior is not appealing if I want to try to get my moves tests in before they all change...I did my intermediate ones very similar to the Junior ones with my exit not following the circle like others do...I did mine with the straighter exit as I was going WAY fast...((and crashed once....hard....almost hit the boards with my head and I fell going top speed at about the beginning of the hockey circle...that's how fast I was going))

[vesperholly]

vesperholly, I definitely agree...coach is a stickler for the back stroking hitting the 90
After I passed Novice moves, one of the judges actually came up to me and complimented me on doing a truly perpendicular inside edge on that transition. He said he sees very few people do the step correctly.

I definitely still hit the boards on that move, though. :giveup: