Group Rate for an Ice Dance Class

[CoachPA]

I'm seeking some advice on what to charge for a group dance class that I've been asked to develop and instruct. I would be the only coach for this class (as I'm the only dance instructor at this rink). This class would not be offered through the rink, like a LTS program or anything, but rather by myself as a specialty class more or less.

I was approached earlier today by several parents whose children are interested in learning dance; however, the rink I'm coaching at is limited to three hours of ice on the particular day that I'd be able to teach this class. I'm booked solid for those three hours and cannot take on any more private dancers until summer, so some parents are hoping that I'd teach a group dance lesson for a half hour.

Currently, the parents are looking to see how many skaters would be interested in participating and would let me know next week so we can figure out a group rate. Until I hear back on an approximate number, I'm trying to figure out what to charge each skater for the half hour class. I'd just like to have an idea of cost when the time comes.

My private lesson rate is $40/hour (and my semi-private lesson rate is $10/skater per half hour). I was considering charging each skater $10/half hour, which means they'd be getting a deal for a half hour lesson without me losing money. Opinions?

For those who have participated in something like this (with a private coach, not through a rink program, like LTS or anything), what did you pay? What is the most you'd be willing to pay for a half hour dance group lesson?

I likely will not charge any less than $10/half hour to each skater.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

[mdvask8r]

Will this class be on open FS ice? or public session ice? Will you have to pay a commission or fee to the rink?
Most rinks around here will allow no more than two students together in a lesson on open ice. Cool if your facility allows more!

[Kim to the Max]

I would also ask what mdvask8r said...what are the maximum number of students who would be allowed to take a lesson on freestyle ice. As a skater, it can be difficult when there are 2 or more students in a lesson. One of our coaches does group lessons for moves and sometimes dance (which translates into the skaters also practicing that way), and it makes it hard to do anything when 4 skaters, one after another are doing the 8-Step Mohawk or even just the Dutch Waltz.

Could you maybe talk to the director of your LTS program at the rink and see if you could do the dance levels of the USFS LTS program during a freeskate group lesson time? (I don't know how your rink divides up LTS...we have separate time for freestyle classes, and we also have a 1/2 hour dance that is at another time so that skaters can do both).

In terms of price, I think that the $10/skater/half hour is reasonable. Many of our coaches simply divide up their normal half hour price. I want to say that for our LTS dance lessons, if a skater is also taking a freestyle class, the price to add that second lesson is not much...I don't remember off the top of my head, but I want to say either 40-50 for the 6-7 week session.

[CoachPA]

Will this class be on open FS ice? or public session ice? Will you have to pay a commission or fee to the rink?

This class would be taught on a three-hour long open FS session, which all the skaters that belong to this particular rink, or rather skating team, pay for monthly.

I do not have to pay commission to this rink as it is a "seasonal" rink in a state park. (Yay! :lol:) Now at my regular rink where I coach year-round (and where my seasonal skaters come from March-October), I pay commission (just $4/hour). This class, however, would only be at the seasonal rink, so that isn't too much of a factor.

I would also ask what mdvask8r said...what are the maximum number of students who would be allowed to take a lesson on freestyle ice. As a skater, it can be difficult when there are 2 or more students in a lesson. One of our coaches does group lessons for moves and sometimes dance (which translates into the skaters also practicing that way), and it makes it hard to do anything when 4 skaters, one after another are doing the 8-Step Mohawk or even just the Dutch Waltz.

The skating team only has 16 or so skaters, so its not that crowded, plus the skaters tend to take mini-breaks throughout the three hours.

There's also only three other instructors at this session, so typically there's only three or four students that would be affected lesson-wise.

And, since this is a very low-key seasonal rink, there's really no set limit for the number of skaters on the ice, as we don't have that many to begin with!

Could you maybe talk to the director of your LTS program at the rink and see if you could do the dance levels of the USFS LTS program during a freeskate group lesson time? (I don't know how your rink divides up LTS...we have separate time for freestyle classes, and we also have a 1/2 hour dance that is at another time so that skaters can do both).

I have to teach the class on the Saturday morning open FS session due to time constraints and the fact that I already coach the advanced freestyle lessons on the LTS nights.

The issue isn't so much about when I teach, as that's pretty much been decided, but how much I'm going to charge. I'm pretty sure I'm going to charge $10 per skater for a half hour class, so I'm not losing out by taking on all these group skaters and no privates for that half hour and these skaters would still get a 50% discount for a half hour lesson from me. I think that's a fair trade off.

[mdvask8r]

Sounds like a really sweet deal all around! I agree, $10-$15/skater/class is fair. Will they pay for the series of classes in advance? You don't want to be stuck teaching 5 skaters one week for $50, then only 1 skater the next week & you only get $10 for your time.
Let us know how it goes!

[sk8tmum]

Normal hourly rate divided by number of skaters is what we've been charged in this sort of circumstance. But, agreed to in advance so that if you didn't show up, you still paid.

Worked out well. The kids worked together and learned together and were on all on the same track, and could practice together effectively.

Me, if I found out that a coach normally charged $10/half hour for a semi-private, but, charged me the same amount for a lesson with more than 2 skaters (maybe I'm misunderstanding your initial post?) I would be a bit, umm, baffled. But, that's because we're used to published fees for coaches and knowing exactly what everyone gets charged by every coach, and I know from what I've read on the posts here that the Canadian private skating club system works differently re: coaches and ice fees and all that.

[jskater49]

I'm seeking some advice on what to charge for a group dance class that I've been asked to develop and instruct. I would be the only coach for this class (as I'm the only dance instructor at this rink). This class would not be offered through the rink, like a LTS program or anything, but rather by myself as a specialty class more or less.

I was approached earlier today by several parents whose children are interested in learning dance; however, the rink I'm coaching at is limited to three hours of ice on the particular day that I'd be able to teach this class. I'm booked solid for those three hours and cannot take on any more private dancers until summer, so some parents are hoping that I'd teach a group dance lesson for a half hour.

Currently, the parents are looking to see how many skaters would be interested in participating and would let me know next week so we can figure out a group rate. Until I hear back on an approximate number, I'm trying to figure out what to charge each skater for the half hour class. I'd just like to have an idea of cost when the time comes.

My private lesson rate is $40/hour (and my semi-private lesson rate is $10/skater per half hour). I was considering charging each skater $10/half hour, which means they'd be getting a deal for a half hour lesson without me losing money. Opinions?

For those who have participated in something like this (with a private coach, not through a rink program, like LTS or anything), what did you pay? What is the most you'd be willing to pay for a half hour dance group lesson?

I likely will not charge any less than $10/half hour to each skater.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!


When I've done this, we split the coaches fee. So if she charged $40 an hour and there were 4 of us - we payed $10 each...if there were 3 we all payed more to make it $40 (I'm not doing the math now) and if there were 5 then we payed less..but the coach got her usual fee. The coaches at our club get their hourly rate when they teach a power or moves class..except for Learn to skate...there's a set pay rate for that.

joelle

[fsk8r]

At my rink one of the coaches does this sort of thing. He's worked out the parents of the kids falling out the top end of LTS don't always want to pay for privates but the kids need somewhere to go. The rink 15min rate (it's a set rate for all coaches at the rink) works out to be about the same as your proposed $10 per half hour per skater, and it turns out ot be the equivalent of a 30min group class (although the parents pay for those by the term).
He works it that he takes a 15min fee from each skater in his little groups. If he has 2 skaters, he's ok and makes his normal fee, if more show up he's in profit. He's got two of these little groups (and yes they're annoying and get in the way but the rest of us are lumping it) both with nominally 4 skaters in it. One of the groups he normally gets 4 skaters, so he's getting above normal rate for it. The other he normally numbers 3 skaters. But if for whatever reason the other skaters don't show up they don't pay for whay the child misses. I think from what I see, he normally ends up ahead as there are more weeks with more than the 2 minimum than there are weeks with 1. So the parents think they're onto a winner (because they're getting 30mins coaching for the price of 15) and the coach is really onto a winner as he's getting paid for an hour and doing 30mins work.

I'd have loved to have group dance lessons being able to use the full rink, so go for the idea! And where is this really quiet seasonal rink... I'd love to be able to skate on freestyle ice where I don't have to trip over other people because there are so many of us. Because it's Christmas, every morning we've got about 90% of the rink population showing up for freestyle. I shouldn't complain because I'm part of the 90% who wouldn't normally be there!

[CoachPA]

Sounds like a really sweet deal all around! I agree, $10-$15/skater/class is fair. Will they pay for the series of classes in advance? You don't want to be stuck teaching 5 skaters one week for $50, then only 1 skater the next week & you only get $10 for your time.
Let us know how it goes!

That's what I'm trying to figure out and one of my main concerns (the number of kids showing up/not showing up week-to-week). I kind of want to be guaranteed that I'm making at least what I'd make for a half hour lesson ($20 if I do $10/skater) so that I'm not losing out. Perhaps setting a minimum of two kids per group lesson would be a good idea?

[sk8tmum]

That's what I'm trying to figure out and one of my main concerns (the number of kids showing up/not showing up week-to-week). I kind of want to be guaranteed that I'm making at least what I'd make for a half hour lesson ($20 if I do $10/skater) so that I'm not losing out. Perhaps setting a minimum of two kids per group lesson would be a good idea?

What if 5 kids show up? Will you still charge them $10/skater? That's my "parent" hat that I'm wearing ... maybe the "rule" should be that you are paid XXX$, divided among the skaters and have everyone agree to it. That way, if a parent decides to be random about bringing their kid, the other parents who have to pay more as a result will be encouraged to resolve the non-attendance issue. Or, sell "tickets" ahead of time, and they redeem their "tickets" every lesson they show up - ? That way, you're not out of pocket even if, say, Sally decides to never come again. Without mutual obligation on both sides, you could end up losing out if the kids and the parents lose interest for whatever reason.

Another (probably annoying thought): are all of these kids working on the same dances? If some are doing the Dutch Waltz and some are on the Killian, it will be quite challenging.

[CoachPA]

Another (probably annoying thought): are all of these kids working on the same dances? If some are doing the Dutch Waltz and some are on the Killian, it will be quite challenging.

Right now these kids have no dance experience and those that do are about three lessons in to learning the Dutch Waltz, so they're all relatively the same level.

As for the inital money issue, I may wait until this weekend to see how many skaters I've got interested and then go from there. I'm not sure if their parents will suggest how much they'll be willing to pay individually for this group class or if they'll let me put my fee out there first. Either way, I'd like to at least clear my half hour lesson rate, although if I can get more than that, I'm all for it, especially since these skaters are getting a deal either way. And, of course I will listen to any suggestions these parents put forth, but ultimately I have to be the one making the final decision when it comes to what to charge.

[Query]

Since I'm not a real coach, I don't know that much, but, from volunteer experience, group lessons are a lot harder to teach. You have preparation time. You sort of babysit, provide entertainment, a semblance of discipline, and try very hard to give everyone as much individual attention as you can in an environment where that is difficult. When someone else (e.g., a rink) organizes it, and recruits the students, teachers generally earn less than their private rates, but the reverse is often true when the instructor organizes it.

$40/hour would be very cheap by DC area standards - I think inexperienced figure skating coaches here charge $60, and the rest charge about $70 - 80. But DC is a major city. Where are you located? Someone told me a while ago group lessons arranged by rinks gave coaches $45-50, but you are making the arrangements here.

Charging people based on the number that show for a given session could create sources of friction between the parents. A lot of people drop out of series of group lessons as they go on, so take that into account. It will probably die out no matter what you do within a few weeks or months. You could try to advertise to get more. (Some group of instructors here call themeselves the __ Skating Academy, where __ varies. Sort of lends respectability.) Or you could charge for the series in advance (or give a discount when paid that way) to encourage them to come a little longer, like the other person suggested.

It's great there are places that can give group ice dance lessons, and make a go of it. When rinks try, and pay the coaches their standard group rate, most lose money at it, and stop.

I hope it's fun while it lasts.

BTW, the other freestyle session people may not be real happy, with a bunch of kids doing Dutch Waltz patterns on "their" FS ice. Oh well. It would help if you encourage the kids not to be too agressive about right of way.

[CoachPA]

Since I'm not a real coach, I don't know that much, but, from volunteer experience, group lessons are a lot harder to teach. You have preparation time. You sort of babysit, provide entertainment, a semblance of discipline, and try very hard to give everyone as much individual attention as you can in an environment where that is difficult. When someone else (e.g., a rink) organizes it, and recruits the students, teachers generally earn less than their private rates, but the reverse is often true when the instructor organizes it.

I've taught group and private lessons for just over 8 years, so I'm aware of what comes with these groups at times in terms of dealing with large groups of skaters. (Although with this class, I'm guessing I'll probably have 6-7 skaters at most, and I doubt if I'll have that many even.)

With what I'd be doing with this dance class though, there's much less preparation time (getting together my dance music CDs perhaps), so that's not so much an issue there.

And, since I'd be organizing it, I'm able to set my own rate, so I'm pretty much guaranteed to make my private rate at minimum.

$40/hour would be very cheap by DC area standards - I think inexperienced figure skating coaches here charge $60, and the rest charge about $70 - 80. But DC is a major city. Where are you located? Someone told me a while ago group lessons arranged by rinks gave coaches $45-50, but you are making the arrangements here.

I'm located in western Pennsylvania. The highest coaches we have at my regular rink charge $72/hour, but that's for a two-time Olympic medalist coach that has coached National-level competitors. Average at that rink is about $40-60/hour. (By the way, I plan to go up in rate once I pass my BA Exam and get my second USFS Gold Medal, which will hopefully be within this year.)

At the rink where I'll be teaching this particular dance class though, instructors are extremely cheap! Most are at $30/hour, so I'm the highest charging instructor there--and no, I will not drop my rate at this rink. Taking into account experience, skating/coaching accomplisments, etc., I know what I'm worth (despite the fact that some coaches at my regular rink are recommending I increase my rate).

It's great there are places that can give group ice dance lessons, and make a go of it. When rinks try, and pay the coaches their standard group rate, most lose money at it, and stop.

I'm hoping this won't be the case since the parents and skaters approached me themselves and I will be responsible for coordinating and developing this class. Only time will tell, I'm sure...;)

[Mrs Redboots]

Ours charge one lesson fee, regardless of the number of skaters - it is up to the skaters (or their parents, if necessary, but my experience is with adults) to sort out who pays what when to whom to keep the books even. As long as the coach gets a lesson fee, he doesn't care whose pocket it comes out of from!

And when they are not actively teaching (this is on dance club), they hire themselves out for 50p a dance!

[twokidsskatemom]

Ot but wow, wish you lived here lol
I think 10.00 per half is very reasonable.I run a camp in the summer and charge 20.00 a class drop in rate for the dance.That does include ice time.Classes are 30 or 45 minutes.
Good luck!

[mdvask8r]

As Query mentioned, teaching a class/dividing your attention among a group is much more work than teaching a solo private lesson. I'm not talking about prep time -- I mean the actual effort you must put forth during the class to get the concepts across to many different learning styles and personalities. You should charge more (total) for the group than you do for a private. If you make $40/hr for private lessons, you should net minimum $45/hour for the group. Your proposed rate of $10/skater/30min class is VERY reasonable.

[CoachPA]

As Query mentioned, teaching a class/dividing your attention among a group is much more work than teaching a solo private lesson. I'm not talking about prep time -- I mean the actual effort you must put forth during the class to get the concepts across to many different learning styles and personalities. You should charge more (total) for the group than you do for a private. If you make $40/hr for private lessons, you should net minimum $45/hour for the group. Your proposed rate of $10/skater/30min class is VERY reasonable.

Thanks, I understand that, and I feel like I should be making (total) more than a one-on-one private lesson, so I'm hoping at $10/skater/half hour will get me to at least $30-40/half hour after all the skaters are paid for.

Also, when you said very reasonable, do you mean I really should consider charging more? Perhaps you'd suggest I say each class is worth $50 and divide that amount by the number of skaters attending?

[RachelSk8er]

I think the group class idea for beginning ice dancers is great...really, with the preliminaries, it's mostly a matter of learning the basics (progressives, swing rolls, etc) and doing drills up and down the ice, and A LOT of repetition to learn the steps. Having other skaters there really helps the kids work together to retain the steps and learn to skate on time to the music, too.

I think your rate sounds reasonable (or figure out how much you'd want overall for a group lesson like this and divide it among all the kids if it catches on and more show up--if you want to be making $40 and 6 kids are interested, charge a little less per kid). Even at $10, it's much less expensive than going for half an hour private. And in the end, you'll end up with more private students as some of them stick to dance and need more individual attention as they get past the preliminaries (score!)

Two of my friends and I started dance at the same time, we had all been skating for a long time and were just picking it up to meet our synchro team's outside skating requirement (so as far as "dance basics" and things like counting music and doing the right steps, we already had a lot of experience). Our coach would take all 3 of us and just charge her normal lesson rate split between us, BUT we'd do 45 min so really it didn't work out much differently for her than each of us getting 15 min private lessons. It mainly saved her from repeating the same thing 3 times and we got through the first few levels really quickly.

[sk8lady]

One of our coaches does this, and the drop-in fee is $20 per 1-hour session, but that includes ice. The six week session is $100.00. She has coached nationals competitors so if the class is fairly small it's very worthwhile--if a ton of people show up who all want to learn the Dutch Waltz it can be pretty frustrating!

[phoenix]

Okay, I'm going to go against the current a bit here. This is my 2 cents.....

I've been coaching ice dance privates and groups for about 9 years.

In a group setting, each person automatically gets much less attention than in a private. Teaching a group class that is at the very beginning level doesn't require much advance prep. The way I look at this type of class is that it's a chance for the skaters to try out dance in a "light" way without the big commitment and higher cost of setting up privates with a coach----BUT the goal of the class is to get skaters hooked on dance so that after a round or two of the group class, they WILL set up the private lessons with a coach--hopefully you!

So with that perspective, It's my opinion that the group class should cost LESS than the private (per person), because otherwise it makes no sense to not just take a private lesson and get a WHOLE lot more personalized information and attention. I pay my coach $80/hr for my lessons. So would I pay him $80 for a 1 hour class with 5 other skaters? No way.

If you're pretty certain that you'll get 6 skaters or so, cut your rate so they're getting more of a break in price, and look at your time teaching the class as an investment in getting more privates in the future. I do think it's a very good idea to have them pay for the whole session up front (just like regular group classes) so you get paid whether they come or not. I pay $10/hr for an off ice dance class--to me, $10 for a 1/2 hour group class is a lot. And if you charge $8 per student, and you get 6 skaters, you're still making way more than your private rate anyway. ($48 for 30 minutes vs. $40 for 60 minutes)

[slusher]

I learned ice dance in a group way back when, it was okay for the forward dances. I paid $5 for a group 15 minute lesson with three other ladies. Hmm, so the coach was making $20/15, knowing his rate, he was making a fortune over his hourly rate. But $5 seemed reasonable to at least learn the patterns and what a progressive was and a chassee, and that mysterious concept that the music playing had something to do with our skating :)

Generally around here a "group" is three skaters, with the coach's rate divided by 3. Bigger groups don't work and are not the value as Phoenix very well explained.

[jenlyon60]

There is precedence for teaching ice dance in a group environment. I know of a very successful program in the DC area that does that, and has had multiple teams medal at Lake Placid and Junior Nationals.

[Sylvia]

There is precedence for teaching ice dance in a group environment. I know of a very successful program in the DC area that does that, and has had multiple teams medal at Lake Placid and Junior Nationals.
In case anyone is interested, here is the website of the Wheaton Ice Skating Academy (WISA): http://www.wisa.us/

[Query]

In case anyone is interested, here is the website of the Wheaton Ice Skating Academy (WISA): http://www.wisa.us/

I've watched them. They look like they are an incredible amount of fun.

But a very different type of group from what the O.P. described:
1. They practice many days a week, a few hours/day if you include on and off ice training.
2. They reject most applicants and kick a lot of kids out, if they don't become and remain serious competitive skaters. They work the kids pretty hard.
3. They offer a pretty good economic deal, which probably netted the chief instructors little or no profit at first, though they then have to take private lessons. They view as partly a "scholarship program".
4. The couple in charge of it were both Russian national champions.

But they did start by recruiting kids from group lessons classes.

I took a week-long 4 hour/week on and off-ice adult ice dance class from the same people over the summer. Well attended, lots of fun.

Were I the O.P. and a legit coach, I would say yes for now, and keep the price reasonable - partly to keep the skaters used to the idea of taking lessons for me, and who knows, it might go somewhere. With figure skating dropping in popularity, it helps to be known. It's only half an hour.