Can you Pass Tests if your Sit Spin isn't low enough?

[katz in boots]

I am working towards a test for around April/May 2009. I have my doubts about being able to pass because at this stage none of my elements are at passing standard. It's going to take a lot of work.

One thing I know is that my sit spin is definitely not low enough. I don't think I can get my butt lower than my skating knee. Obviously I will continue working at it, but at my age and size, I don't know if it is physically possible.

So if all your other elements are rock solid, is it possible to pass tests without getting a sit spin that low? Have you seen anyone do it (in recent history) ? Or am I wasting my time?

[dbny]

So if all your other elements are rock solid, is it possible to pass tests without getting a sit spin that low? Have you seen anyone do it (in recent history) ? Or am I wasting my time?

It depends on your skating, the test, and the judges. I've seen skaters pass adult track tests with a sit spin that was barely more than a bent skating knee.

[katz in boots]

.... I've seen skaters pass adult track tests with a sit spin that was barely more than a bent skating knee.

LOL, I'm not that bad:lol: We don't have an adult track here though, we have to take the same tests as the kids. I wonder if they adjust their standard at all for adults :roll:

[Thin-Ice]

I'm not sure where you're testing, but where I am (northern California), as long as you attempt the element and it is a recognizable attempt and everything else is fine.. you could pass on the strength of your presentation scores... as long as that is the only element that's not up to par. That happens with both kids and adults. I managed to pass my Silver FS despite blowing the camel (one revolution instead of the three required)... and I was passed on the basis of presentation. I still think of the whole thing as a gift.. but I don't want to return it!:lol:

[sk8lady]

What do you mean when you say you don't have an adult track? Does your club refuse to offer the adult tests? That seems strange--if they're offering freestyle tests anyway they would use the same judges--that's what they do here.

The requirement for adults is only that the sit spin be "recognizable" so you wouldn't need to be that low. (I'm guess that most adults are like me and it's not a question of getting down, it's a question of getting back up!) :D

[renatele]

What do you mean when you say you don't have an adult track? Does your club refuse to offer the adult tests? That seems strange--if they're offering freestyle tests anyway they would use the same judges--that's what they do here.

The OP is probably not from US :)

[RachelSk8er]

I'm not sure where you're testing, but where I am (northern California), as long as you attempt the element and it is a recognizable attempt and everything else is fine.. you could pass on the strength of your presentation scores... as long as that is the only element that's not up to par. That happens with both kids and adults. I managed to pass my Silver FS despite blowing the camel (one revolution instead of the three required)... and I was passed on the basis of presentation. I still think of the whole thing as a gift.. but I don't want to return it!:lol:


I'm pretty sure in the US at least, with a freestyle test, you need to have every element passable. I failed my silver free the first time too, because my body decided it didn't want to do a camel spin that day in my program and on the retry, I only got 1 rev in my program, did a nice "practice" one w/my coach before my official retry, but then blew it again on the retry and only got 2 revs. Everything else in my program was fine (even my camel sit...just not the camel). One judge did pass me (former AN competitor/wife of one of the other adults from my club) because she knows I can do one just fine, but the other two weren't as forgiving. But who knows when it comes to testing...half the time it's a coin toss. I had one silver dance I failed a few times--did horribly the first test (so bad I started laughing during the solo) and 1 passed me, did well the following two tests, actually pretty darn good on the 3rd try and none passed me, didn't do it quite as well as the 3rd try the 4th time and all 3 passed me over the passing average.

As for the sit spin, if it has enough revolutions in a recognizable attempt at a sit spin, I'm sure you'll be ok. Even with kids, they don't all get super low on a lower level freestyle test.

[samba]

My sit spins can be pretty bad most of the time, but I managed a good one on the day of my test both in elements and free programme so its worth a try. As for the UK, I cant say I have ever seen any special treatment being given at any of the free tests I have taken for being a wrinkly.

At my last test, one of the test examiners said that my programme was wonderful but could have been a little bit faster, I didnt like to tell her that this is as fast as it is ever going to get but she passed me anyway.

[Mrs Redboots]

What do you mean when you say you don't have an adult track? Does your club refuse to offer the adult tests?
These are only available in the USA. The OP is from Australia where, as in all the other countries represented on this forum, you test standard track or not at all, whether you are 6 or 76!

In reply to the original question - I think it depends on the judge. Some will pass you if the rest of your elements are well passable and your sit-spin is acceptable, but not quite low enough; others won't. All I can say is - if your coach thinks you might scrape a pass, have a go, as you've nothing to lose.

[coskater64]

I would imagine if you do a solid program and show you have the skills you would pass. I have a rather high sit spin and due to injury have had to relearn the spin, I am in my 40's but with a lot of hard work I have learned how to get my sit spin lower. I use a big ball against a wall and do one legged squats it took several months but it helped me build the strength to get the sit spin lower.

I would also suggest you get a nice fast spin with good speed and make it look easy, that might distract if you aren't low enough.

Good luck and keep up the hard work.:lol:

[Thin-Ice]

I'm pretty sure in the US at least, with a freestyle test, you need to have every element passable. I failed my silver free the first time too, because my body decided it didn't want to do a camel spin that day in my program and on the retry, I only got 1 rev in my program, did a nice "practice" one w/my coach before my official retry, but then blew it again on the retry and only got 2 revs. Everything else in my program was fine (even my camel sit...just not the camel). One judge did pass me (former AN competitor/wife of one of the other adults from my club) because she knows I can do one just fine, but the other two weren't as forgiving. But who knows when it comes to testing...half the time it's a coin toss. I had one silver dance I failed a few times--did horribly the first test (so bad I started laughing during the solo) and 1 passed me, did well the following two tests, actually pretty darn good on the 3rd try and none passed me, didn't do it quite as well as the 3rd try the 4th time and all 3 passed me over the passing average.

As for the sit spin, if it has enough revolutions in a recognizable attempt at a sit spin, I'm sure you'll be ok. Even with kids, they don't all get super low on a lower level freestyle test.

Well, as a judge in northern California, my experience has been our Gold Test judges -- who are usually the Judge in Charge on tests -- keep reminding us "if just one element is not passable, the test MAY pass on the presentation mark". They say this a couple of times after a test that has a strong presentation. But you're right, it does depend on the panel.

[CoachPA]

As for the sit spin, if it has enough revolutions in a recognizable attempt at a sit spin, I'm sure you'll be ok. Even with kids, they don't all get super low on a lower level freestyle test.

I believe that "recognizable sit position" is the key for passing a sit spin regardless of whether a skater is taking a standard test or Adult Track test. I don't have my rulebook in the room with me, but I'm pretty sure that "recognizable sit position" is how the book describes the passing standard for a sit (position-wise). I can check into this later, or someone else who may have immediate access to the rulebook can confirm/correct.

There's always revolutions, too, so if you're feeling uncertain about the quality of your position, perhaps work on getting way more than the minimum revolutions required for the spin.

In reply to the original question - I think it depends on the judge. Some will pass you if the rest of your elements are well passable and your sit-spin is acceptable, but not quite low enough; others won't.

I totally agree. I've seen tests go out that range from the Preliminary level to the Intermediate level in which the judges have failed a sit spin (at any level) that was any higher than this sit spin (http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/images/sit_spin_pnk_s.jpg) whereas some will pass a spin (usually at the Intermediate level and lower) that more closely resembles this sit spin (http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/images/sit_spin_js_s.jpg). Personally, I think both are in a recognizable sit position, so much of what passes and does not pass may depend on the judges' personal preference.

Also, I'm curious since you're doing standard track, what level the test you'll be taking is comparable to in USFS terms. Is the test closer to Preliminary or higher, as that may affect the expectations for a passable sit position? I'd think the standard would be a little higher for an Intermediate level sit spin/back sit than it would be for a beginner level sit spin.

[icedancer2]

This is a very good question and I think it is related to the fact that here in the US at least, the testing structure (under 6.0), does't quite reflect what is going on with the IJS (International Judging System now used for competition).

In evaluating the sit spin in competition (under IJS), the technical specialist has to decide whether or not a spin is actually a sit spin or an upright spin and so they have determined that a sit spin is very low with the butt being at the level of the bent knee (or something like that - the wording is different but you guys know what I'm talking about). A very high "sit spin" that some of you are describing might not be called a sit-spin but would be called an upright spin and wouldn't get the same point value as a proper sit-spin.

But since the tests are still judged in the 6.0 system there is a lot more leeway. When I am judging a test with a sitspin I might make a comment like, "sit spin needs to be lower" - and especially on a test that is Juvenile or higher because that is how the spin will be judged in competition. Otherwise I would probably pass it if it looked reasonably like a sit spin and there were enough revolutions. And especially if all of the other elements in the test were fine.

Just my 2 cents. I believe that at some point the testing structure may come up to the level of the competition standards (although that is a subject that has been batted around for what seems like decades now in terms of jump requirements for tests vs. competition but I digress) and maybe we will someday judge tests under an IJS-like system, but I'm not holding my breath.

:giveup:

[RachelSk8er]

In evaluating the sit spin in competition (under IJS), the technical specialist has to decide whether or not a spin is actually a sit spin or an upright spin and so they have determined that a sit spin is very low with the butt being at the level of the bent knee (or something like that - the wording is different but you guys know what I'm talking about). A very high "sit spin" that some of you are describing might not be called a sit-spin but would be called an upright spin and wouldn't get the same point value as a proper sit-spin.

:giveup:

They've told us at PSA seminars I've been to (mostly focused on synchro but we spin there, too) that for it to count as a sit spin and not an upright, the thigh of the skating leg must at least be parallel to the ice.

I know from talking to adult skaters in Canada where they are judged under CoP at all levels at some competitions that there is some sort of room for an adult-not-as-low-as-standard sit spin to still be counted as a sit spin. (If anyone was at the committee meeting at last US ANs this issue of IJS for all levels and what to do at lower levels when some things normally wouldn't be counted came up.)

[fsk8r]

I am working towards a test for around April/May 2009. I have my doubts about being able to pass because at this stage none of my elements are at passing standard. It's going to take a lot of work.

One thing I know is that my sit spin is definitely not low enough. I don't think I can get my butt lower than my skating knee. Obviously I will continue working at it, but at my age and size, I don't know if it is physically possible.

So if all your other elements are rock solid, is it possible to pass tests without getting a sit spin that low? Have you seen anyone do it (in recent history) ? Or am I wasting my time?

I've heard rumour in the UK that judges may pass you on the sit spin (it's generally what holds most adults up in our test system) if they think you're sufficiently old that you won't be showing up any time soon to test the next level. It's a sort of sympathy pass. If they think you are young enough or able enough to be able to do it right, then you'll be failed and made to retry it to demonstrate it properly.
I've come to the conclusion that if you're 6 and look real cute you pass on a high sit spin, if you're 76 and look ancient you pass because they don't expect you back next test session with the next tortuous element. The rest of us have to get it good and proper.
I've heard of one lady failing a synchro test (back in the days of synchro test) and the comment from the judge afterwards, was that she'd have passed her had she known she was an adult. The lady said she valued the retest more because she knew she got that fair and square.
Personally I think I agree with this lady, I want to be able to get the test because I'm good enough for it and not because I'm considered old (unless they're planning on introducing adult track and drop the standards officially).
And if it's any consolation, the sit spin is holding me up from the next test. Although currently I think I'm going to get that into the sitting position BEFORE I work out how to do the backspin.

Good luck with the test. It might be worth chatting to people around the rink to see what stories come out from what slips past the judges. It might be that the passing sit spin standard isn't that low, or it may be that you can get away with passing if something is above standard and the sit spin is just below, so it all averages out.

[jazzpants]

Katz: How often does your skating club have test session? If it's like every month or even every other month and you're not in any particular hurry to pass a test to be eligible for an event, may I suggest that you sit in on a test session to watch and watch the test session, especially the skaters of the test level that you are going to? Watch the sit spin part of it especially and see what happens. (i.e. find out from that skater if s/he has passed or not.)

I'm also from the same area as Thin-Ice, though not the same skating club and probably not the same skating judges. I will say from my own Adult Bronze FS test experience (which is the second level tests of the Adult Skating Track) that the judges did make a comment that my sit spin needs to be lower, but it was a recognizable sit spin. I also didn't land the loop clean, but the rest of my program was clean and my flow was very good. I barely passed from all three judges based on the presentation marks!!! :bow: :bow: :bow:

Since I'm also in NYC, I will also say that I've heard from numerous sources that if you test at certain skating clubs and rinks that they are more lenient... and certain skating clubs are really tough to the point where they make it extremely hard for adults to pass. Since you're in Australia, that's another kettle of fish altogether. This is why I suggested that you go and sit in on those test session.

[CoachPA]

They've told us at PSA seminars I've been to (mostly focused on synchro but we spin there, too) that for it to count as a sit spin and not an upright, the thigh of the skating leg must at least be parallel to the ice.

Exactly, and that's what I'd consider to be an ideal sit spin, though rarely do the judges get that ideal sit spin, especially at the Juvenile and lower level.

[Terri C]

They've told us at PSA seminars I've been to (mostly focused on synchro but we spin there, too) that for it to count as a sit spin and not an upright, the thigh of the skating leg must at least be parallel to the ice.


This is what my primary coach of soon to be 10 years tells me all the time, but after watching AN on icenetwork, very few Bronze ladies get to that. Then again the Bronze III ladies that do, usually make it to the final round.
Now when I passed my Bronze free last spring, it was commented by the judges that my sit needed to get lower.
For getting it lower, I started working out on a Bosu ball with two footed squats, then progressed to one foot. Now I work on all my spin positions on the Bosu.

[jskater49]

Well I must say this has been enlightening for me. I don't know where I got this idea but I thought they were insisting adults butts be no higher than their bent knee. I knew that I will never be able to do that so I pretty much gave up the idea of even attempting the bronze freestyle. If they are easier than that on adults...I might consider the bronze fs. That is if I can ever learn to do a scratch spin....

j

[katz in boots]

Katz: How often does your skating club have test session? If it's like every month or even every other month and you're not in any particular hurry to pass a test to be eligible for an event, may I suggest that you sit in on a test session to watch and watch the test session, especially the skaters of the test level that you are going to? Watch the sit spin part of it especially and see what happens. (i.e. find out from that skater if s/he has passed or not.)

We get test sessions only when judges are here for competitions - twice a year. Some have passed Elementary 1 with a sit spin where their butt wasn't lower than their knee, but some have not, even though other elements were solid. Mind you, the one I'm particularly thinking of was quite young, so perhaps they might be kinder to a "wrinkly".

[Mrs Redboots]

I've heard rumour in the UK that judges may pass you on the sit spin (it's generally what holds most adults up in our test system) if they think you're sufficiently old that you won't be showing up any time soon to test the next level. It's a sort of sympathy pass. If they think you are young enough or able enough to be able to do it right, then you'll be failed and made to retry it to demonstrate it properly.

It does depend on the judge. Many of those who hung up their skates when they were in their 20s appear think that older adults are really clever and brave to be able to do it at all - the ones who still skate themselves, not so much! And still others appear to think that the standard is the standard, and you must meet it or they won't pass you.... but we all know who those judges are, and if they pass you, you know you've passed!

[NCSkater02]

That is if I can ever learn to do a scratch spin....

j

Ah, the main reason I don't test. I've been trying to learn a scratch for...oh....nearly five years now.

[sk8lady]

These are only available in the USA. The OP is from Australia where, as in all the other countries represented on this forum, you test standard track or not at all, whether you are 6 or 76!


My bad...I thought the OP had kids in the USFS Basic Skills for some reason!

BTW, the requirement for the thigh of the free leg being parallel to the bent knee of the skating leg is IJS only. At the PSA conference my coach specifically asked if this requirement is going to trickle down to the USFS Adult levels and was told no (since I was sitting next to her and said, "And are they going to expect me to get back UP, too?").

Possibly we should be lobbying IJS for an IJS adult track????

[CoachPA]

BTW, the requirement for the thigh of the free leg being parallel to the bent knee of the skating leg is IJS only.

Correct, but I can't help but wonder if some judges who judge IJS will still have the parellel thigh of the skating leg as their standard for a sit spin position.

It will be interesting to see what pans out over the next few years in regards to testing and IJS standards.

[CanadianAdult]

In Canada it's possible to pass freeskate tests without a sit spin for quite a few levels, if everything else is strong and then if you have a good camel/flying camel you can get further. For our elements portions of the test, there are 14 elements and it is possible to fail 2 of them, so you can fail sit spin and still get the test.

It catches up with you in competition though, because they definitely apply the parallel leg requirement for the sit, and if you're planning out three unique spins with different codes and can't do a sit, it makes your options limited.

[singerskates]

To get a lower sit spin, you can always go into the sit from a 1 footed lunge and then swing the free leg around. See, you're already down in the sit position when doing a lunge. That's how I first got a low sit spin. Another ways is to think about almost sitting on your skating heel and not too lean too far forwards in the sit.

Before the 2005 injury, I was low enough for CPC standards with the sit but then the injury messed everything up and I had to relearn everything (adjusting for the injuries I sustained and loss of strength). This year, I do have a sit that is at CPC (IJS or COP) standards in which I change to other sit positions on the same foot after at least 3 revs each. Wish I could do the same on the back sit position though because then I could really rake in the points. I probably have something between a Level 1 or 2 sitspin right now.

Has anyone tried changing edges in a forward sit spin? Just how do you do it? I'd love to add that to my sit as well.

[slusher]

Has anyone tried changing edges in a forward sit spin? Just how do you do it? I'd love to add that to my sit as well.

Practice loop figures. A lot.

[ibreakhearts66]

Has anyone tried changing edges in a forward sit spin? Just how do you do it? I'd love to add that to my sit as well.

The way I got my change of edge forward sit was to do it holding on to my leg. I grab my leg, and kind of steer myself onto the outside edge. It took a bit of trial and error, but now I can do it pretty consistently. I grab my leg like I would if I were going to bring my head down to my knee, but I don't lower my upper body. I then lean slightly into the circle and change edges. It really feels like I'm using my free leg to steer onto that edge. Now I can do it without holding on to my leg, but I still prefer grabbing my calf. This keeps my circles nice and small, too. For me, and for the other skater at my rink who can do an outside edge forward sit, it's tricky to do it without holding onto your leg, because as you lean into the circle to get the outside edge, you have to move your free leg out to the right (for CCW skater) to keep your balance. It's easier to control this if you have a bit of help from your arms.

And as Slusher said, loop figures will help tons too.

You can also work on changing edges in a forward upright spin to figure out where you need to be on your blade.