Odd Jump Take-Off Technique

[katz in boots]

I am not a coach, but today was helping a girl from our skate school. She has started doing waltz jumps, but I noticed she has an odd take-off technique.

Instead of rolling up and jumping off the bottom pick, she somehow jumps off the flat of the blade, and kicks her skating foot backwards when she jumps. It makes quite a scrape on the ice, rather than the clean edge ending in a neat little toe-pick hole. Her bunny hop take offs do the same thing.

I have never seen anything like it before and had no idea what to tell her to correct this. I told her she needs to talk to her coach about it. I am curious to know for my own information though. Any ideas?

[Kim to the Max]

I am not a coach, but today was helping a girl from our skate school. She has started doing waltz jumps, but I noticed she has an odd take-off technique.

Instead of rolling up and jumping off the bottom pick, she somehow jumps off the flat of the blade, and kicks her skating foot backwards when she jumps. It makes quite a scrape on the ice, rather than the clean edge ending in a neat little toe-pick hole. Her bunny hop take offs do the same thing.

I have never seen anything like it before and had no idea what to tell her to correct this. I told her she needs to talk to her coach about it. I am curious to know for my own information though. Any ideas?

I don't do this for my waltz jump or my bunny hops, however, I do something similar on my axel. It quite frustrates coach. For my, part of the problem is jumping outside of my circle rather than with/into the circle with the axel, if I really focus on jumping into the circle (not jumping around, but not outside of the circle), that usually makes it better. For me, it's a bad habit that I learned as a kid and now when I am back, I still have that bad habit :roll:

[dbny]

It sounds like roller technique, and it's a good way to land flat on your a$$ doing it on ice, especially on the bunny hop.

[CoachPA]

How old is this girl? Sometimes the younger ones (like 5-6 years old) don't get the concept that in order to leave the ice on a jump, you must bend then straighten the legs, which means the toepick is the last part of the blade to leave the ice for a jump.

[katz in boots]

How old is this girl? Sometimes the younger ones (like 5-6 years old) don't get the concept that in order to leave the ice on a jump, you must bend then straighten the legs, which means the toepick is the last part of the blade to leave the ice for a jump.

She's be around 14, probably skating for 1 year or so. She & her friend have similar faults most of the time, except this, and her friend is the one who won't bend her knees. They have only recently started having private lessons, I suspect their waltz jumps are self-taught though as they aren't at that level in skate school.

How would you go about getting her out of this peculiar habit?

[Clarice]

I think I'd work the jumps off ice in training shoes, or maybe even ballet shoes at first. I'd have her march in place, emphasizing how the foot rolls up to the toe before it leaves the floor. I used to do this exercise in beginning ballet, and also in marching band, believe it or not. In band we called it "4 stage marching" - on count one, the foot rolls up so just the toes are touching the floor, on 2 you lift the knee and come up into "chair position", on 3 you return the toes to the floor, and on 4 you roll the foot back down flat. Then move on to two-foot jumps in place, emphasizing proper foot action and making sure that the toes are pointed when she's in the air. Eventually you can try her other jumps, stressing toe point.

[CoachPA]

How would you go about getting her out of this peculiar habit?

I'd start by literally breaking down this jump, focusing especially so on the take-off (from a standstill, of course).

Ask the skater the following questions. (It's okay if she doesn't know the answers to any of these; that's where your role comes in).

1. What edge should this jump take-off on?
You may need to give her choices (inside, outside, or none). Have her watch you do a waltz jump (in as slow motion as you can) then answer. Show her over and over until she sees that foward outside edge.

2. What is the last part of the blade to leave the ice?
Provide more choices if necessary (such as heel, ball [of the foot], middle, toepick, the whole blade, etc.). Again, you may need to perform a waltz jump slowly over and over until she sees that toepick leaving the ice last.

3. What does my lower body have to do in order to jump?
Boy, the answers I've heard when I've asked this question! Most of the time, kids will tell me that you must bend. Do just that--bend and say, "Okay, I'm bending, but I'm still not jumping. What else do my legs have to do?" Sometimes they'll move on to say something like "pull the arms in" or simply "jump", so have skaters who believes jumping comes from bending alone do a jump (straight up) from two feet. They should feel their knees bend and then straighten. Have them watch you bend and straighten as you do a two-foot jump [straight up].

You may be surprised at some of her answers, but as far-fetched as they may be, at the very least they'll clue you in to how she's thinking and what you can do to correct or clarify her logic and tweak your teaching techniques.

Now begin to breakdown the take-off.

Take-off (edge): Emphasize that the take-off happens from an outside edge (and make sure she knows what it feels like to skate on inside edges, outside edges, and flats if you believe that's part of the culprit). Next draw out a slight curve for her to follow ending the outside edge by drawing a point at which the toepick will leave the ice. When practicing, she must follow the edge all the way to the toepick mark before jumping, so be sure to make this edge proportionate to the skater's height. Forcing her to follow this edge should get her off the flat since she will need to push and maintain a glide/edge.

[B]Take-off (legs): In a nutshell, the skating knee should be bent over the skating foot's toes before straightening to allow the skater to take-off correctly from the skating foot's toepick. The free leg, which moves behind the body in a slightly bent position as the skater steps onto the foorward outside edge, must move past the skating leg in order for the skater to achieve maximum reach/split during the actual jump.

Take-off (arms/shoulders): Lastly, cover the position of the arms during take-off. The arms should start in front of the body slightly rounded. The left shoulder, for the CCW skater, will lead, so the skater must know that he/she has to hold back on that right side. (Use the analogy of rolling a bowling ball, which is explained in Exercise 1 listed below.) Explain the position of the arms in relation to the legs: arms in front before pushing onto the forward outside edge; arms go back as the free leg goes back; arms move through as the free leg moves through. Much like the axel, it's all about timing, which can be tricky for some skaters learning this jump.

Supplement these explanations with the following exercises.

Exercise 1: Most skaters have gone bowling before, so asking them to mimic the motion of rolling a bowling ball can help make the connection of how the arms/shoulders work for the take-off. (Rolling a bowling ball requries one to hold back on the bowling ball with one side and lead with the other, much like the waltz jump take-off does.) Once you see that the skater has hit the correct shoulder position in this exercise, tell them to freeze. The left side should be slightly ahead, the right slightly behind. Explain that position is very similar to the take-off position of the arms and shoulders for the waltz jump.

Exercise 2: From a standstill, have the skater stand on that take-off curve (outside edge) you drew earlier. For the CCW skater, the left leg is on the take-off edge with the right foot behind in a T-position. Do not have the skater move much, but rather slide their left foot forward on the direction of the outside edge curve while keeping their left knee very bent. (The right foot can--and should--stay behind on the ice for balance.) They should eventually hit their toepick a bit, although this should only happen because the skater can no longer continue the outside edge, not because he/she is rising up on a locked knee. Make sure to coordinate the arms with the sliding of the skating knee (arms go from in front to back as the left foot moves forward).

Exercise 3: Once she's ready to jump, have her try to clean one of the red or blue lines. This will help her understand that her free leg must move past her skating leg in order to achieve a nice split-like position in the air. Emphasize reaching or stretching her legs as far as she can over the line.

Exercise 4: Once the skater is jumping correctly with the lower body, problems can sometimes develop with the upper body, mainly with the right shoulder coming around. To remedy that, have the CCW skater approach the jump with a glove in his/her right hand. He/she must keep the glove in their right hand until mid-air when he/she will switch the glove to the left hand. Upon landing, the skater will have the glove in the left hand, which will also be in front of him/her to check the landing of the jump and prevent continuing rotation in the upper body (as this makes it hard to hold a landing).

[Sessy]

I have never seen anything like it before and had no idea what to tell her to correct this. I told her she needs to talk to her coach about it. I am curious to know for my own information though. Any ideas?

I have. The girl I saw it on was trying to do waltz jumps before she had *any* control over her forward outside edge. Because she couldn't hold the edge, she rushed to get into the air, not letting the edge turn her at all, taking off a flat and holding her free foot almost under her butt.

[CoachPA]

I have. The girl I saw it on was trying to do waltz jumps before she had *any* control over her forward outside edge. Because she couldn't hold the edge, she rushed to get into the air, not letting the edge turn her at all, taking off a flat and holding her free foot almost under her butt.

I agree that the lack of the ability to maintain that outside edge is likely the main cause of this girl's waltz take-off issues.

Unless she's working on waltz jumps for a reason (such as needing a FS 1 element for an ISI program, since ISI Pre-Alpha through Delta requires one), I would limit the waltz jumps until she's mastered the necessary edges and skills to carry over to her jump techniques. And, even if this girl is working on a waltz jump to use as a required FS 1 element for a program, there are other FS 1 elements she could use, like the pivot or a two-foot spin.

They have only recently started having private lessons, I suspect their waltz jumps are self-taught though as they aren't at that level in skate school.

Do you know what level she is?

With ISI group lessons, skaters typically don't start understanding edges until the Gamma level and that's pretty much limited to outside three-turns. (I'm sure with some skaters their knowledge of outside edges in relation to three-turns is limited even more so to what foot starts in front for these turns, so they likely do not have a true understanding of edges.) Most skaters really aren't taught forward outside and inside edge until Delta.

[phoenix]

Keep in mind that if she has a coach, said coach may not appreciate you giving her student instruction. I have a student who skates a lot on public sessions, and has learned things from her friends, which causes me no end of grief because she always learns them wrong & then I have to fix the habit.

Every coach teaches things their own way, you need to be cautious about stepping on toes here.

[katz in boots]

Some really great suggestions here. Yes, I would agree she isn't yet confident holding the outside edge. Kids seem to rush into jumps & spins before they've learned basic skills really. One of my pet hobbyhorses is that our skate program teaches 3 turns before it teaches edges 8O

Keep in mind that if she has a coach, said coach may not appreciate you giving her student instruction. I have a student who skates a lot on public sessions, and has learned things from her friends, which causes me no end of grief because she always learns them wrong & then I have to fix the habit.

Every coach teaches things their own way, you need to be cautious about stepping on toes here.

Absolutely agree ! I hadn't intended to get involved, just spotted it and when she couldn't do it differently, told her she needs to talk to her coach about it. Was just asking for ideas for my own development as judge and postential coach.

[kayskate]

She may be trying to lift her skating foot to get a split position in the air. At least that's what I thought until I read she had been skating 1 yr. As a "beginner" I think she is just making a mistake and has poor technique. However, a more advanced skater will use appropriate technique to get in the air first then split the legs. This technique is described in the Petkevich book.

Kay