Random technique questions--lutz and brackets

[san]

Hi, all. I need some help on lutzes and brackets.

1) On the takeoff of a CCW lutz, after you reach back with the right arm, does the right arm then come around the body or is it betting to use a scooping motion (like on a flip)?

2) On forward outside brackets, should the hip of the free leg be in an open or in a closed position prior to the turn?

Any help is appreciated. My coach is telling me one thing, and my skating technique book says something different, and I can't get either skill to work well no matter what I do. 8O

[jp1andOnly]

On outside brackets its all about having the weight just where you need it (tuck that backside in) I have my freeleg more in and open position. The turn itself isnt really about the hips and such, more the shoulders/arms.

As for the lutz, I try not too scoop as it can lead to you dropping your shoulder. I try to think about reaching back, then when I just my right arm comes in to the middle of the body. I suppose there is a little scoop, but dont think as a scoop (otherwise you may thrown yourself off) Even on a flip, I dont do a scoop (perhaps the word scoop you are saying isnt quite the right word) I find the lutz and flip technique very similar.

Hi, all. I need some help on lutzes and brackets.

1) On the takeoff of a CCW lutz, after you reach back with the right arm, does the right arm then come around the body or is it betting to use a scooping motion (like on a flip)?

2) On forward outside brackets, should the hip of the free leg be in an open or in a closed position prior to the turn?

Any help is appreciated. My coach is telling me one thing, and my skating technique book says something different, and I can't get either skill to work well no matter what I do. 8O

[vesperholly]

Well, your coach can see your errors and a book can't ... I'd go with her advice.

[NoVa Sk8r]

I agree with vesper.
Oh, what skating book are you referencing?

When I started working on brackets a few years back, my former coach (in Virginia) told me certain things about the brackets. But then my coach here in NY told me *seemingly* contradictory things. It turned out that the 2 approaches were 2 different rivers flowing to the same ocean. And I recently passed that move (and test) with flying colors, so all turned out well. 8-)
For the brackets, I always think of pressing into the edge. Sometimes, if you pre-set the free hip, then it will end up where it is supposed to after the turn. In other words, if you think of the hip and place it before you turn, then you won't have to worry about it after the turn. (This was more of an issue with my RFI bracket.)

I hope that is what is happening to you. Good luck in any event. :)

[san]

Nova S8tr--The book I'm using is "Figure Skating Championship Technique", by John Misha Petkevich. When you say preset the hip, where are you placing it?

Vesperholly--I love to go with my coach's advice, except that it doesn't seem to be working, and I actually have better success with the book's advice. But like Nova said, there can be different approaches that are both correct.

jp--thanks for your input--that was helpful.

[patatty]

I And I recently passed that move (and test) with flying colors, so all turned out well. 8-) :)

Congratulations! I remember discussing this test with you last spring - I'm glad it all worked out!

[doubletoe]

I have that book and it seems to fall just short of having enough information to actually learn from. Sigh. . . I like it, though!

When I do forward outside brackets down the length of the rink, I sort of picture myself as a crab walking sideways. I keep my chest and pelvis facing the boards opposite me (east) even though I am traveling toward the end of the rink (south). To do that, I have to keep my hips open. Keeping the instep of the free foot in a T position at the heel of the skating foot helps keep that knee and hip opened out.

For the lutz, I'm sure there's more than one correct technique for the arms, but here's what I do on both the lutz and the flip: Once I pick, I pull myself back towards the picking foot and my hands sort of mirror what my feet are doing at the same time. Once I pick and start pulling back, I feel like I am backing into my right foot AND my right hand so that as my feet come together and I leave the ice, my right fist also connects with the palm of my left hand somewhere between my belly button and my right hip bone (they don't have to literally connect but it's a good image to have in mind). This keeps me over the right side by forcing me to keep my right shoulder back and minimizing my right arm movement. And yes, be sure not to dip the right hip or shoulder after you pick, both on the lutz or the flip.

[san]

Thank you so much, doubletoe--that was extremely helpful!! :bow:

Part of my problem, and the reason why I'm turning to the book (and here) for help, is that my coach looks at my pathetic bracket tracing, scratches her head, and says, "I don't know what's wrong." :roll:

[CoachPA]

Well, your coach can see your errors and a book can't ... I'd go with her advice.

I totally agree, but I'll give my input anyway.

1) On the takeoff of a CCW lutz, after you reach back with the right arm, does the right arm then come around the body or is it betting to use a scooping motion (like on a flip)?

I teach a "scooping" motion, or rather that the right arm should bend in from the elbow, so that the elbows are slightly pulled in toward the body. Sometimes if a skater thinks of bringing the right arm around the body, they'll be thrown off by a swinging motion and perhaps even overrotate the upper body getting him/her ahead of what the lower half is doing. Remember, the body needs to work together as a whole.

For the lutz, I'm sure there's more than one correct technique for the arms, but here's what I do on both the lutz and the flip: Once I pick, I pull myself back towards the picking foot and my hands sort of mirror what my feet are doing at the same time. Once I pick and start pulling back, I feel like I am backing into my right foot AND my right hand so that as my feet come together and I leave the ice, my right fist also connects with the palm of my left hand somewhere between my belly button and my right hip bone (they don't have to literally connect but it's a good image to have in mind). This keeps me over the right side by forcing me to keep my right shoulder back and minimizing my right arm movement. And yes, be sure not to dip the right hip or shoulder after you pick, both on the lutz or the flip.

Great tips!

I'd like to add that you should almost feel as though you're "pole vaulting" your body into the jump. Like I said earlier, the body needs to work together as a whole in order to achieve the necessary (or desired) height and rotation.

2) On forward outside brackets, should the hip of the free leg be in an open or in a closed position prior to the turn?

I teach a slightly open position because I think that it helps a skater keep his/her back against the circle going into bracket, which is what I'd focus on more so than the position of the free hip.

Achieving a strong outside edge can be done by keeping the back shoulder pulling back. You'll find you're able to hit that outside edge much easier, complete a bracket with a crisp, correct turn, and finish on a clean, solid inside edge.

How is your free foot motion on the bracket? That may be causing some of your problems with a "pathetic tracing". What is the problem? What exactly does your tracing resemble?

[NoVa Sk8r]

Nova S8tr--The book I'm using is "Figure Skating Championship Technique", by John Misha Petkevich. When you say preset the hip, where are you placing it?I like that book (the one with Boitano on the cover), but I think Petkevich is describing more of a bracket for *figures*. I presume you are doing brackets in the field, not bracket figures, right?

As for the hip, it depends on how deep of a circle you are using. How much you twist your hip does not really factor in on a shallow circle. The key point is to use the hip for a productive countertwist against the torso. (For a bracket *figure*, the hip should really be closed.) Also, he writes that you should place the free foot in front before the turn, but I was taught to keep the free foot by the side of the skating foot and then move it in front after the turn.
BTW, for my forward inside bracket, I tend to turn the free hip inward (closed).

[CoachPA]

Also, he writes that you should place the free foot in front before the turn, but I was taught to keep the free foot by the side of the skating foot and then move it in front after the turn.

I teach the free foot goes behind the skating foot (in a slightly open position) and then moves in front of the skating foot as you do the bracket. This helps with that change of edge (on forward outside from outside to inside).

Now on forward inside brackets, I teach foot in front before the bracket, which then moves behind the skating foot as you turn.

[doubletoe]

I teach a slightly open position because I think that it helps a skater keep his/her back against the circle going into bracket, which is what I'd focus on more so than the position of the free hip.

Great pointer! For a forward inside 3-turn, I always try to remember that my chest needs to be hugging the circle I'm on, but for a forward outside bracket, my back needs to be pressed against the circle, which means the back shoulder stays pulled back. On a lutz takeoff edge, the back is also pressing against the circle, so the right shoulder has to stay pulled back.

I like that book (the one with Boitano on the cover), but I think Petkevich is describing more of a bracket for *figures*. I presume you are doing brackets in the field, not bracket figures, right?
Good catch! There is definitely a different technique.

[san]

Yes, I am doing brackets in the field, good point about the figure brackets.

My forward outside bracket tracing looks like a backwards "7", if that makes any sense at all. The bracket sort of points sideways, and the inside edge tracing right before the turn is too long and deep. I can actually do inside brackets perfectly--don't know why, they just work.

Part of my problem may be free foot placement. My coach has me keeping the free foot behind the skating foot the entire bracket, but I wonder if it would be easier if I swing it through to the front, like CoachPA said.

[NoVa Sk8r]

My forward outside bracket tracing looks like a backwards "7", if that makes any sense at all. The bracket sort of points sideways, and the inside edge tracing right before the turn is too long and deep. I can actually do inside brackets perfectly--don't know why, they just work.I kind of understand this as I had a similar problem. But it only occurred on the LFO bracket (and the ensuing RBI bracket). The first part of that sequence (RBO/LBI) has always been clean as a whistle. And the reason is that I learned "brackets" on my left foot a long while ago, and learned them wrong. So I had to undo the incorrect technique. The other side I never worked on so it was never corrupted. :P

I think your problem has to do with:
1. Waiting too long: Do the bracket when you are parallel to the boards or really just slightly before that. If you are like me, you will tend to hesitate slightly before doing the bracket turn, so the turn will not occur at the top of the lobe. If you do it too late then you are effectively doing the bracket on the descening curve back to the "long axis" and your body will probably instinctively zigzag as it attempts to get back on the curve for the entry to the BI bracket.

2. Improper checking of the arms before/after the turn. (I think that one side of your body will always be weaker than the other). If your arms are not lined up properly, the bracket curve will do strange things. Kepp those arms across your body. A good exercise to help control the FO bracket is to do the FO bracket turn and then immediately do the back bracket. This will help you control the arms. (At least it helped me.)

[NoVa Sk8r]

Congratulations! I remember discussing this test with you last spring - I'm glad it all worked out!Oh, thanx. I still remember seeing you warming up those moves, which inspired me to get my buttocks in gear! So I had finally decided to sign up for the adult gold moves a month ago and just go for it. (My first test in 4 years or so 8O). I hadn't told my coach about the test, and when I mentioned to her later that I passed, she didn't believe me. Then I quickly showed her the test papers, and she thought I was playing a joke on her. :lol: How I got past the CW forward power circles, I have no idea. I think I swallowed hard a couple of times and maybe even yelled, "Geronimo!"

I do remember that the brackets felt pretty good. And at the end of the test, the judges all commented on how well they were skated. I'm not sure if that was in absolute terms or as "an adult skater"; would be good to know should I ever take intermediate moves. (Well, they commented on this after they asked how to pronounce my last name. :lol:) One judge even drew stars on the test sheet--I had never seen that before. The panel was also very excited to see an adult male test skater (which I guess is rare around here), and they were so encouraging.

After I had convinced my coach that I had indeed passed, she said, "OK, now we can work on really challenging exercises so that I can really teach you how to skate." 8O :P
Yes, I'm frightened. Sheesh, I just want to spin. 8-))

[vesperholly]

It sounds a bit like you're shortchanging the rotation of the turn. If you don't flip your foot all the way around, you can't get the little point to the bracket turn. I find swinging my foot to snap the turn helps tremendously. I'm not sure what Petkevich says.

I'd love to see a video of your brackets if you have it. I have a video of mine somewhere I can post if you're interested, it illustrates the swing.

[ibreakhearts66]

Yes, I am doing brackets in the field, good point about the figure brackets.

My forward outside bracket tracing looks like a backwards "7", if that makes any sense at all. The bracket sort of points sideways, and the inside edge tracing right before the turn is too long and deep. I can actually do inside brackets perfectly--don't know why, they just work.

Part of my problem may be free foot placement. My coach has me keeping the free foot behind the skating foot the entire bracket, but I wonder if it would be easier if I swing it through to the front, like CoachPA said.

I know exactly the tracing you're describing. It's a common error in a bracket tracing, and my coach explained why it happens and I...can't...remember. But the fact that you said your edge is too long and deep would make me guess that you are trying to force the turn, which probably throws off the hip/upper body alignment, and then throws off your tracing. So, swinging the free leg through (a scissor motion) might help a lot. I do a scissor motion in my brackets, and I'll try to describe exactly how I do it. If I were skating on a RFO edge, I would have my left leg slightly in front, my left arm checked across my body slightly (about even with my right shoulder), and my back to the circle. As I near the top of the circle, I cross rotate my upped body a bit (back to the left) and bring my free foot back behind my ankle. As I turn, my left (free leg) scissors forward and my arms check back to the right. None of this motion is too extreme. The free leg motion all happens below the knee, and the arms move just enough to check the turn.


It sounds a bit like you're shortchanging the rotation of the turn. If you don't flip your foot all the way around, you can't get the little point to the bracket turn. I find swinging my foot to snap the turn helps tremendously. I'm not sure what Petkevich says.

I'd love to see a video of your brackets if you have it. I have a video of mine somewhere I can post if you're interested, it illustrates the swing.

I'm interested!

[LWalsh]

for what it's worth here's my .02, I passed Int. MITF and did figures.

When you are going into the turn be sure that your upper body is facing the boards. It is key that both the entrance and exit your shoulders are square to the boards. Some people have trouble with this because it requires a fair amount of spinal twist (even more so when you get to higher level turns such as rockers and counters). Work on twisting.

Then be sure that as you enter the turn you are pressing down on the outside edge. When you actually turn regardless of whether or not you do the scissor (which I use) you need to release the pressure as you do the turn and then press back down on the inside edge when the turn is complete, all while keeping your shoulders square to the boards. Does you coach teach you to move your arms when you get back to the axis? There are different techniques on this. I personally beleive that less movement is better so no arm changing, but others feel differently.

Petkovich taught the scissor because it was a way to release the hips during a figure. I'm sure that book came out well before figures. But if you are having a hard time releasing the hip the scissor can really help. A bonus will be that the judges will likely recognoze this and be pleased that they are seeing someone with knowledge of figures (at least they commented to me on how my brackets were so figure-like).

While I love Petkovich remember that he was taught in a different era and techniques have evolved since then. Also while the book is a good supplement to expand your knowledge and understanding it can't replace a person who is looking at you. Did your coach do figures? That helps a lot.

Good luck with these. If you post a video we may be able to help more.

Lara

[san]

Thanks for all the input. I don't have a video of my brackets, but will try to make one. I'd love to see anyone else's videos as well.

I think a lot of my problem is not pressing over on the outside edge going into the turn--I think I'm anticipating the turn by flipping to the inside edge, and that's where I'm getting the backwards "7" tracing. I will work on all your suggestions tomorrow, plus I have a lesson as well, so I think all this will help. And yes, my coach did do figures (I did, too, way back when, but never made it up to brackets).

[vesperholly]

I took some video of brackets today, when I get home from work tonight, I'll post them. :)

[vesperholly]

LFO, RFO, LBI brackets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6VHqkpxUIg&feature=channel_page

[san]

Thank you so much, vesperholly. Wow, your brackets are great. That was helpful--your turns are really quick, much quicker than mine, which I'm sure is a big part of my problem.

At the rink today, instead of obsessing over hip placement like I have in the past, I concentrated on the back shoulder pressing back going into the bracket, and that seemed to help a lot. I still can't really press over on the FO edge as much as I need to, but it was better today than it's been.

I am also happy to report that I did the best lutz that I've done in a long time. So all in all, a good skate today. Thanks again for everyone's help! :bow:

[vesperholly]

You're welcome, and thank you. :)

I haven't done brackets in a while. What I noticed was that shoulder/arm placement and free foot placement played the biggest part in a good bracket. I'm glad you're finding more success!