LTS help! My kids won't stand up!

[Stormy]

So a new session of LTS started this past Saturday. The first hours I have good kids who can at least move, but the 2nd hour I have tots. And it's the hell hour. We have a new policy where we don't hand the crying kids back to their parents anymore, so there's a few who will just sit on the ice and scream. Sometimes we can distract them with toys and picking them up and trying to get them to march holding them. But sometimes they will just sit there and scream and nothing we do works. The criers I can usually deal with though it's not fun.

My main problem was a girl and boy, brother and sister. The girl sat on the ice and refused to even LOOK at me or even speak. I'd try to pick her up and she'd wiggle and fuss. I left her alone for a bit. The boy (in hockey skates), couldn't stand up. He'd do the all fours, then stretch his hands way up, and then try to put one foot in front to stand up and his foot slid all over the place and he'd sit back down. We did this several times. I'd pick him up and he just refused to stand on his own, like he had no leg muscles. Another helper took the girl so I was left with the boy. I carried him and picked him up for a good 20 minutes and by Sunday morning my upper back was very stiff and sore and still aches some today. He was heavy!

I'm just not sure what to do with this boy. He's old enough, probably 4 or 5 years old, to be able to stand on his own. No matter what I said or did, he wouldn't stand on his own and trying to get him to learn to stand up wasn't working either. I can't spend another lesson carrying him. Any advice, both for this boy and for the crying kids? :giveup:

[Skittl1321]

Do you have something they can hold? We tend not to let the kids push cones, but we had one 4 year old who did exactly what you said- just acted like he had no leg muscles, where he should have been able to stand with no problem, so we let him hold a rubbermade box, and would try to make him let go for increasing amounts of time (we got to 3 seconds by the 2nd class- once his Mom finally put him in figure skates, he could toe-pick push it around, with the hockey skates, he couldn't push it. Side note- i hate hockey skates on tots).

The boy in hockey skates also was never able to stand up on his own in hockey skates for the 8 weeks we had him. She put him in figure skates twice, on our urging (insisting?) and he was able to do it then (but never really wanted to), but the hockey skates just slip all over the place. The kids center of balance are usually too far back for them.

If they absolutely won't get up, can you play a game sitting on the ice with the others, at least for a few moments? We like duck duck goose- it's COLD and wet, but the kids love it, and they would be included, though still not standing up.

Another thing we do is set up plastic bowling pins, and then have the kids slide a hockey puck towards it to see if they can knock it over. For those who can stand up, it helps them with balance while bending, and for those who can't yet, it lets them do something.

Another instructor lets them take a few minutes to make "snow angels" but I'm very against letting kids kick their legs on the ice. I think it's a bad habit to teach, but they do love it. Can they stand against the wall? If they can holding onto the wall, our kids usually like to snowplow scrape snow, if they have been promised they can throw a snowball when they finish.

I really believe that as long as the kid is enjoying themselves, just sitting on the ice for a bit can be beneficial for them, as long as parents don't expect results from 1 session, especially for the youngest. It gets them used to being on the ice. We usually don't have any who sit for more than 3 sessions, and they aren't cryers unless you try to get them up, and even still, will often hold your hand while standing. But if yours are crying while sitting on the ice, and not scooting around or singing or whatever with you, then I honestly don't really get the policy of not handing them back to parents, so I'm of no help there. You could always go with the "ignore them" approach- but I'm more apt to do that in a classroom where they don't have knives attached to their feet. I'd just give them a few tries to join the group, play a sitting game, and then tell them if they want to join you, then they can hold your hand (or whatever), and then leave them (keeping an eye on them)

One last thought is could the parent or a sibling skate with them? For the boy I discussed above, when we finally told his Mom we would not be holding him for the half hour (there are 2 instructors, and he was essentially getting a private lesson) she sent out his brother, which helped a bit, if only to save our backs. He was willing to stand up with him, and maybe march a bit. (That's the one student I felt like I couldn't get anywhere with. It was very trying, and he was a HEAVY boy, so it was also backbreaking)


Good luck!

[tazsk8s]

Is there a "parent-tot" class available that you can switch him to? When we have a kid like that who is in the 4-5 year old age range, we usually suggest that. Some kids are more "ready" to be away from Mom or Dad than others at that age.

And as for your back hurting, been there done that. I had a Basic 1 a couple of years ago that included TWIN boys, both in hockey skates (which really are that much harder to deal with on non-skaters) and full gear, who couldn't stand up if their lives depended on it. These boys were built like small tanks to begin with, and all the hockey gear just made them that much heavier. I was stupid the first week and kept picking them up anyway and boy did I pay for it later. Skating director saw the whole thing and specifically told me NOT to stand them up anymore. Life would have been much easier if Dad had not insisted that they wear hockey skates and full gear, but of course he knew everything. :giveup:

[CoachPA]

once his Mom finally put him in figure skates, he could toe-pick push it around, with the hockey skates, he couldn't push it. Side note- i hate hockey skates on tots).

The boy in hockey skates also was never able to stand up on his own in hockey skates for the 8 weeks we had him. She put him in figure skates twice, on our urging (insisting?) and he was able to do it then (but never really wanted to), but the hockey skates just slip all over the place. The kids center of balance are usually too far back for them.

Yes, I also discourage hockey skates on Tots--and on most first-time skaters. Thankfully, our rink rental staff will usually just give parents figure skates, so except for the few that bring their own hockey skates, we don't have too many slippers-and-sliders.

[Isk8NYC]

Don't try to hold them up continuously. When I know they can do it, I'll just let them fall rather than become their on-ice couch. I let them down gently and say "That's all right. (that they fell) You have stand up by yourself now because I can't hold you up all the time. You're a big kid and I know you can do this."

If there's a bribe involved that you know about, use it! "Mom said you'd go to McDonald's later if you skate today. Let's work hard so you can go." Another tactic: "Your mother said you really want to skate. It's time to stand up now and work on that." Follow up with the parent after the class. "Jimmy was getting too comfortable sitting on the ice, but then he joined us halfway through the class." or fink him out for not cooperating.

Sometimes, a gentle reminder like that is all it takes. Once they realize that Mom can see they're not cooperating, and that you'll tattle on them, they could start behaving. Or, they could just have a fit about coming the next week. It's a crapshoot. You have to gauge the level of fear vs. plain old-fashioned brattiness.

I usually spin the lazy ones when they won't get up. I make them lay on their backs (wearing gloves/helmet/etc.) then I give them a quick spin on the ice like a compass needle and laugh, laugh, laugh. It usually gets them to giggle and breaks the ice, so to speak, so they cooperate a little more.

We always put the toys out as far away from reluctant skaters as possible, so they HAVE to skate to get there. I have a parent:child class where one of the little girls gets off the ice repeatedly during the lesson to take a break with mom. That's okay with me because she's very young (2 1/2) and I think she really does get tired. When we bring out the toys and balls though, she's back and raring to go!

I had one kid last session where he just wouldn't cooperate and the mother stood there (on skates herself) making excuses for his attitude. He clung to her and she couldn't skate very well. She just let him call the shots. The kid would refuse to get on the ice, so the mother would just come out by herself. He would watch. When the candyman came out with his bucket of candies, that kid would be on the ice before you knew he had even gotten out of his seat. Twice he stayed off the ice for the entire lesson except the after-class candy giveaway.

The biggest thing you really have to look out for is mild disabilities. I had a student last session with ADHD. She HATED to be looked at directly or touched, even to catch her when she was about to fall. Very common, from what I understand. So we did a lot of "You hold the bear's left paw, I'll hold his right, and we'll march together."

This session, I have one kid/parent pair that's a mystery to me. He's six years old and very reluctant. The mom can coax him onto the ice and through the activities, but he's so clingy, it's dangerous. I said something last week about how he "should be able to do..." something and added "Unless he has physical limits - are there any?" I expected a "No" in reply, but she then said "Oh yes, he has low muscle tone." and went on to describe some physical developmental delays.

Gee, think that should have been revealed before the fourth lesson? (The kid was getting frustrated) lol I believe her too, because the child repeatedly breaks wind on the ice. I have to step back because he makes my eyes water at times. I suspect neither of them is having much fun, but the mom's learning to skate a bit and the kid's getting more comfortable. He definitely likes the ball pickup activities.

When I have a beginner in hockey skates, I talk to the parents about using the figure skates for the first session. Our hockey and figure skating rentals look the same except for the blade, so I rarely get an argument. I just explain how the hockey skates require too much balance at the beginning and they'll get more value from the lessons if they use the figure skates for the first few lessons. They can try the hockey skates again at a public session and see how it goes.

[Isk8NYC]

The "feet sliding away" sounds like dull or loose skates. I keep a sharpening stone in my pocket and run it over the edges to sharpen the rentals a bit.

I'm usually the police officer who keeps the kids from getting off. "No, your lesson's not over - look over there - they're playing with ...." Any kid who has a meltdown, pushes, kicks or gets violent gets an immediate "rest time" either in a hockey box or with their parent. I usually tell them to get a drink of water and come back when they're ready because that behavior is too dangerous. That's just good teaching technique; catering to those students will just net you complaints from the parents whose kids are behaving and NOT getting a good lesson. The SD might want to reconsider that policy.

BTW, there always one kid in a beginner class who doesn't like this instructor or that instructor. They end up ignoring the one they don't like. Don't take it personally.

[Virtualsk8r]

Stormy - a couple of things: NEVER pick up a child when they are struggling or you are in an awkward position, in fact, I never pick up children. Your back is too precious and injury is a high probability...

My own dd sat on the ice for the first couple of weeks of LTS (ok so she was 2) and then just stood up and moved. It's been my experience that some kids will tend to sit on the ice for the entire lesson or two - and then decide to get moving. Be patient with them (and tell the parents too

No matter how hard you work at engaging some kids - they will never be happy in the class, so if you have done your best, then accept it. Going overboard to keep one child happy and their parents - at the detriment of the other skaters is not a good tactic because the other parents see what is going on and will not return for more lessons if their child doesn't receive equal treatment.

When all else fails -- try bubbles!! They've never failed for me. Kids love to just chase or pop them, even if they are sitting on the ice. Let them crawl or move on their knees to catch them. At least they are moving. Make your own with dish soap or buy some at the $$store. Good luck!

[CoachPA]

Don't try to hold them up continuously. When I know they can do it, I'll just let them fall rather than become their on-ice couch. I let them down gently and say "That's all right. (that they fell) You have stand up by yourself now because I can't hold you up all the time. You're a big kid and I know you can do this."

Exactly. Whenever I see a kids getting those jelly legs while skating with me even when I know these kids can skate on their own, that's it. I firmly remind them that if they don't make some muscles in their legs, they're going to fall down and have to practice getting up on their own. If they still won't stand, I let them down gently. Once they see that you aren't going to literally hold them up for an entire class, they'll either start helping you help them or they'll fall and see that you mean business.

If there's a bribe involved that you know about, use it! "Mom said you'd go to McDonald's later if you skate today. Let's work hard so you can go." Another tactic: "Your mother said you really want to skate. It's time to stand up now and work on that." Follow up with the parent after the class. "Jimmy was getting too comfortable sitting on the ice, but then he joined us halfway through the class." or fink him out for not cooperating.

I agree. One of the most common things I hear besides "how much longer?" is "I want Mommy." I've found that simply telling them, "Yes, I know, but Mommy really wants to see you skate. Can you show Mommy how well you can skate by yourself?" will usually work. Often times, they'll look to see if their parents are watching and then give it a go. Even if you only get a few bobbling marches, at least the kids are skating.

BTW, there always one kid in a beginner class who doesn't like this instructor or that instructor. They end up ignoring the one they don't like. Don't take it personally.

Thankfully, at my rink's Tot class, there are several instructors and helpers. Usually kids will get attached to a certain instructor and cooperate better with him/her. Sometimes if I'm working with a child who is refusing to skate or pretending they can't do something, like swizzles, for instance, I'll go near the Tot's favorite (or usual) instructor and say, "Show how you can swizzle!" If the kid still won't do it, their usual instructor will often say something like, "Oh, I [I]know you can do better swizzles than those!" or "[Skater's name] can do back swizzles, too!" The kids now see that I'm aware that they're expected to do more.


When all else fails -- try bubbles!! They've never failed for me. Kids love to just chase or pop them, even if they are sitting on the ice. Let them crawl or move on their knees to catch them. At least they are moving. Make your own with dish soap or buy some at the $$store. Good luck!

My rink's Tot class uses bubbles, which the kids love, plastic rings that the kids pick up and place in a bucket, or orange cones to make a snake (or swizzle around), and get to play with Play-Skool plastic hockey sticks and pucks during the last five minutes of class.

Bubbles are great because the kids will use two hands to pop them and if the bubble-blower keeps moving, the kids will have to skate toward the bubbles in order to get 'em before they pop on the ice.

Hockey works great for both since the kids need two hands to hold the stick. Young boys especially like this, and will often skate and play on their own if you tell them that their favorite hockey player skates on his own. They get a kick out of me asking who their favorite player is and if that player holds on to his instructor's hand. :lol:

[Stormy]

Thank you all for the advice!!

Some things I should have mentioned before, his hockey skates are his own, not rentals, otherwise I'd have the parent switch them to figure skates just to help him stand. I also hate hockey skates on tots. The blades are sharp, he just won't keep his foot in the right place when I try to have him get up. He'll put in there and then it slides forward a moment later and he sits down. We don't have parent-tot classes unfortunately that he could try and there's no cones or anything they can push around. I tried having him toss toys and go get them and he crawled around to get them, although I felt bad for him, he was wearing corduroy pants and he was soaked. As was I, from sitting and kneeling on the ice with him. :) Usually if I tell pick up a tot and tell them to stand like they were in sneakers, they just stand there fine. This kid was happy and he'd talk to me, he just wouldn't stand up at all the whole time....like he had no leg muscles.

I think this Saturday we'll just work on trying to get up, no more carrying him around. I've carried plenty of tots in my day and my back has never hurt like it did yesterday.

[Isk8NYC]

You're not really "carrying" him, right? That could put you at fault in terms of liability should someone knock you down while you have him in the air. I'll bet you mean "assisting" him with his feet on the ice.

Even when people bring their own hockey skates, I have them use the rental figure skates for the first few lessons. The kid's not going to outgrow them in one session, so graduating to them can be a "reward" (for the hockey bigots) when he actually masters marching and gliding. I "sell" the rentals a bit since it makes the lessons more productive in the beginning. It really makes sense; don't be afraid to approach the parents about it, or ask the director to take a look.

The skates COULD be very loose or too big, which makes even just standing tricky. The "sliding away" sounds like a problem.

If you're sure the skates are sharp, make sure he's keeping his weight over the bent knee. I have them kneel on the ice, bring up one knee and put both hands on it, then keep their CHIN over it. Usually, by pulling the other side's jacket shoulder up a bit, they can get up without sliding out. Lots of kids can't do the knee bend to get up with both hands are on the ice, so even one hand on the "up" knee suffices.

The first lessons with young beginners should always include many, many "sit down/get up" practices. I start them off-ice before the first lesson, then continue it on the ice for most of the first lesson or two. It's important that they learn to get up quickly because in a public skating situation, laying on the ice will get them hurt.

Get a box that's at least chest-height and have him collect the toys and put them in the box. He can't do that without standing up, so he'll get practice that way. I wouldn't use the hockey boxes because you'll have to leave him alone to retrieve the toys.

Try drawing an obstacle course with markers. Somehow, the visuals appeal to little boys moreso than little girls, IME.

[Stormy]

Oh, no, I'm defintiely not carrying him!! I'd never ever do that. Assisting is definitely the right word! I'm behind him with my arms under his. Of course, with him not standing, and me hunched over, I'm carrying all his weight. He and I will do lots of stand up practice this week!

[Clarice]

I always grab them by the back of the collar, like where the hood is attached to their jackets. Much easier on my back!

[FlyAndCrash]

Have you tried holding the "standing" foot while he tries to completely stand up? That sometimes help if the child can't keep the foot from sliding out while they are getting up. After a while, they become more aware of how their foot/weight needs to be positioned and can get up by themselves.

[CoachPA]

Have you tried holding the "standing" foot while he tries to completely stand up? That sometimes help if the child can't keep the foot from sliding out while they are getting up. After a while, they become more aware of how their foot/weight needs to be positioned and can get up by themselves.

Or if the kid's having trouble with his gloves slipping on the ice when he/she tries to push up to a standing position, place your hand flat on the ice and him/her push off your gloved hand. The skater will think you're helping him/her get up but you'll actually teach them to get up own his/her own.

[Skittl1321]

Or if the kid's having trouble with his gloves slipping on the ice when he/she tries to push up to a standing position, place your hand flat on the ice and him/her push off your gloved hand. The skater will think you're helping him/her get up but you'll actually teach them to get up own his/her own.

I used to use this- but had to stop. Some kids took so long to get up, that my hand melted a hand shaped hole into the ice, which would then cause a signifigant bump when skated over. And everyone knew who caused the hole- because it was not a toe-pick hole but MY HAND.

We have really soft ice.... but you're right- it definetly gives the kids more traction!

[slusher]

I've been teaching a lot of tot groups lately, and although this doesn't answer your question, I'm wondering like heck why parents are putting their kids into these programs? Some are ready for it, at age 2, but some of the 4 year olds, yikes! Our club does a refund policy at three weeks if the kids just aren't ready, and anyone who is crying on the ice after three weeks is not ready.

However, for my sitting skaters, we play with foam puzzles (http://content.onestepahead.com/assets/images/product/detail/12663.jpg), once it's all put together or at least some of it, it makes a secure surface to stand on. Sometimes kids will stand on the mat in the middle of the ice and never leave it, but they're standing, and more importantly, not crying.

[CoachPA]

We have really soft ice.... but you're right- it definetly gives the kids more traction!

I'll say! I can totally picture a giantic hand-hole in the ice! :lol:

[AshBugg44]

This session, I have one kid/parent pair that's a mystery to me. He's six years old and very reluctant. The mom can coax him onto the ice and through the activities, but he's so clingy, it's dangerous. I said something last week about how he "should be able to do..." something and added "Unless he has physical limits - are there any?" I expected a "No" in reply, but she then said "Oh yes, he has low muscle tone." and went on to describe some physical developmental delays.

Gee, think that should have been revealed before the fourth lesson? (The kid was getting frustrated) lol I believe her too, because the child repeatedly breaks wind on the ice. I have to step back because he makes my eyes water at times. I suspect neither of them is having much fun, but the mom's learning to skate a bit and the kid's getting more comfortable. He definitely likes the ball pickup activities.

Off the topic, but I can't stand it when parents don't let me know about their child's disabilities, especially when it's something major. I once had a first time 3 year old with autism (which I picked up on because I'm very familiar with autism) and the parent didn't let us know until half-way through the session!

[AshBugg44]

Have you tried holding the "standing" foot while he tries to completely stand up? That sometimes help if the child can't keep the foot from sliding out while they are getting up. After a while, they become more aware of how their foot/weight needs to be positioned and can get up by themselves.

I do that too. I make them still stand up on their own and remove their hands from myself when they try to use me from support, but I hold one foot still so that it helps them learn how to stand up, if they are having trouble with the foot constantly slipping.

[dbny]

I'm with Isk8NYC on not holding them up and no hockey skates. Instead of putting your arms under the tot's, try standing next to him holding one hand at his waist level, and putting your other hand behind his back to prevent a backwards fall. Grabbing the back of the coat is the most I will do to support a tot's weight, and that is just to help them balance, not a constant support. Re the hockey skates, talk to the parents about renting until the kid can stand up and move a little. I've only run into one set of really obstinate parents in that regard. The mom was the problem, and was perfectly willing to watch her little guy sob through weeks of frustration while blaming the staff. The dad just went along with it quietly. They bribed the poor kid, but even that wasn't enough. They shoved him out onto the ice and the dad often went with him. I haven't seen them in a long time, so I suppose nature took its course and the kid will never again put on ice skates of any kind.

[JazzySkate]

Draw an Obstacle Course: curvey and straight lines, a "U" upside down for a tunnel for dips, a "Stop" sign for stops (or pretend stops) a swirly circle for turning around in place, Smiley faces, Snowmen or Snowlady(!)

Pretend you're on "The Polar Express." Stand in front, single file. Pick an engineer and conductor. "Train" screeches to a stop if anyone falls, they give the Conductor his "ticket" to get back on. They try so hard not to fall. Have the Conductor "swing his pretend lantern" to start the train. Let everyone pull their "whistle cord" and go "Whoo! Whoo!" Guide them on straight and two-foot curves, like train tracks and have them march. Draw a RR Crossing (circle w/an X and RR on either side within the circle). Draw a U upside down-it's a tunnel and they dip. If they feel comfortable doing so, they can move their arms like train wheels. Works every time.

[Isk8NYC]

Thread drift: The ice gets cut right with only minutes to spare before the classes begin. I wish I had more time to draw out obstacle courses, but I often have kids/parents waiting while I lay out my artwork.

[blue111moon]

I never hold kids up. It teaches the kid nothing other than it's easy to let someone else do it for them.

If the kid won't stand or try to stand then I let them sit on the cold ice. Heartless, maybe, but I have a class to teach and there are other kids who are trying. I can't afford to spend a lot of time with one at the expense of the group. If I have a helper, I may stick the helper with the child to see if encourgement works but the helper isn't supposed to lift or carry the child.

With kids who won't try, I've been known to take them back to Mom and Dad and suggest that they try next session because the child just isn't ready yet.

[CoachPA]

I've been teaching a lot of tot groups lately, and although this doesn't answer your question, I'm wondering like heck why parents are putting their kids into these programs? Some are ready for it, at age 2, but some of the 4 year olds, yikes! Our club does a refund policy at three weeks if the kids just aren't ready, and anyone who is crying on the ice after three weeks is not ready.

I'm with you on that one! The worst thing about teaching LTS is working with kids who simply do not want to be there.

With kids who won't try, I've been known to take them back to Mom and Dad and suggest that they try next session because the child just isn't ready yet.

I wish I could do that, but unlike at slusher's rink, our skaters do not get refunded if they drop out after starting a session and I think many parents would rather watch their kid at least be on the ice and absolutely miserable than lose out on their $80. :roll:

[Skittl1321]

I'm with you on that one! The worst thing about teaching LTS is working with kids who simply do not want to be there.



I wish I could do that, but unlike at slusher's rink, our skaters do not get refunded if they drop out after starting a session and I think many parents would rather watch their kid at least be on the ice and absolutely miserable than lose out on their $80. :roll:

AFAIK our rink only refunds tots (or possibly just holds the registration for the future). So a 3-year old we can suggest they try again next session. And 8-year old needs to stick it out, or just quit.

[slusher]

AFAIK our rink only refunds tots (or possibly just holds the registration for the future). So a 3-year old we can suggest they try again next session. And 8-year old needs to stick it out, or just quit.

Yes, we only refund tots and only on their first session they try. Our sessions are 10 weeks. We do end up with some that the parents persist in signing up for the second session, and I'm not happy with that as they're told very clearly that there's no refund the second time so there's a leeeetttllee bit of pressure on the coach to make it work. :frus: