Regional Differences: Junior Power Pulls

[Kelli]

I was browsing youtube yesterday (actually looking for Canadian Skills videos) and saw a number of skaters doing Junior moves. Some of them only did 3 sets of quick rockers on their power pulls. In my region, this would be absolutely unacceptable, to the point where skaters with any decent ice coverage or power are doing their 4th set of quick rockers very deep in the corner. Is this ok in your area?

I think this is actually a pretty significant difference in testing standard, as the 2nd and 4th set of rockers are the outside rockers that most skaters find more difficult. The judges don't expect any less speed, but skaters have to get into the pattern very quickly out of the corner and need to have tight edges and quick turns to fit the full set.

Has anyone noticed other regional testing differences?

[vesperholly]

I noticed that too! Judges here would fail you for that. You're supposed to do two of each.

I've seen the 8-step mohawk done with a crossover instead of a cross step after the mohawk.

[CoachPA]

I noticed that too! Judges here would fail you for that. You're supposed to do two of each.

I've seen the 8-step mohawk done with a crossover instead of a cross step after the mohawk.

Yes, where I'm from, skating only three sets for the Junior powerpulls would not pass.

I've also seen the 8-step mohawk done with a crossover, but that's usually because a skater is doing the step incorrectly (or rushing). We emphasize the actual cross step following the mohawk and a crossover would definitely fail that particular element.

[icedancer2]

I'm pretty sure that those Junior Power Pulls that you are describing would not pass in my area.

I've also seen some Novice Moves test elements on youtube that would not pass here...

[aussieskater]

I've also seen the 8-step mohawk done with a crossover, but that's usually because a skater is doing the step incorrectly (or rushing). We emphasize the actual cross step following the mohawk and a crossover would definitely fail that particular element.

(differences in terminology across the seas...) What's a cross step and how does it differ from a crossover?

[vesperholly]

I've also seen the 8-step mohawk done with a crossover, but that's usually because a skater is doing the step incorrectly (or rushing). We emphasize the actual cross step following the mohawk and a crossover would definitely fail that particular element.

Crossover:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_mr13IcbJk

After the mohawk, it should be LBI edge (lift right foot), RBO edge (lift left foot), cross step (set left foot down over right foot). In this video, the skater leaves the left foot on the ice when she steps down on the RBO. I was taught that was incorrect.

These are the correct steps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7xAqRNIgBw

though she's doing the pattern in a figure eight instead of a single circle.

[renatele]

Crossover:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_mr13IcbJk

After the mohawk, it should be LBI edge (lift right foot), RBO edge (lift left foot), cross step (set left foot down over right foot). In this video, the skater leaves the left foot on the ice when she steps down on the RBO. I was taught that was incorrect.


:lol: :lol: yep, that step in the video is incorrect - the coach I had at the time wasn't very experienced with MITF, and this error crept-in somewhere along the way. I do it correctly now ;)

[phoenix]

These are the correct steps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7xAqRNIgBw

though she's doing the pattern in a figure eight instead of a single circle.

Did you look through any of her other videos (she's a gorgeous skater!)? She's doing several things that aren't currently in the moves structure----I've read they're re-working moves (again), and that they're combining some elements, like making the Juv. 8 step into a figure 8 pattern (saves time stopping & starting). I'm betting these are some of the new elements they're considering!

**Love how they are using an obviously HIGH level dancer to demonstrate! Those senior steps look nigh impossible--even she struggles with them.

[Skittl1321]

Crossover:

These are the correct steps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7xAqRNIgBw

though she's doing the pattern in a figure eight instead of a single circle.

Isn't changing it to a figure 8 one of the proposed changes coming up, since last years proposed changes (coin flip) didn't pass? The idea being that a figure 8 eliminates the time for the stop and start.

For pattern differences- I do my 5 step mohawk differently from what most people on the board expected. I held the extension on step 3 in front of me instead of behind. I think the free foot is optional, so it shouldn't have affected the test (and it didn't- I passed)- but many board members were really surprised that I did it that way. I don't know if I was actually taught that, or if I just started doing it, because I don't remember "learning" the move. And my current coach, although fantastic at MITF, doesn't really know the nuances of the test structure, so she might not have known to correct it (if it's not just what everyone around here does...)

[icedancer2]

For pattern differences- I do my 5 step mohawk differently from what most people on the board expected. I held the extension on step 3 in front of me instead of behind. I think the free foot is optional, so it shouldn't have affected the test (and it didn't- I passed)- but many board members were really surprised that I did it that way. I don't know if I was actually taught that, or if I just started doing it, because I don't remember "learning" the move. And my current coach, although fantastic at MITF, doesn't really know the nuances of the test structure, so she might not have known to correct it (if it's not just what everyone around here does...)

I also did it this way - it is totally optional - and this is how one might do it if they are an icedancer (except for the Westminster Waltz I don't think there is another dance where one would do that brush-back) AND I think that actually it is harder because the brush-back helps the rotation...

BUT I had one (trial) judge tell me that she didn't like it that way at all and didn't see any reason to do it - they were really quite opionated!! Being that I am a judge, I would have passed me... (and yes, it passed).

[Skittl1321]

I also did it this way - it is totally optional - and this is how one might do it if they are an icedancer

Ah- that might explain it. My current coach was a high-test dancer when she was younger!

[vesperholly]

:lol: :lol: yep, that step in the video is incorrect - the coach I had at the time wasn't very experienced with MITF, and this error crept-in somewhere along the way. I do it correctly now ;)
And the rest of the steps look quite good! :)

Did you look through any of her other videos (she's a gorgeous skater!)? She's doing several things that aren't currently in the moves structure----I've read they're re-working moves (again), and that they're combining some elements, like making the Juv. 8 step into a figure 8 pattern (saves time stopping & starting). I'm betting these are some of the new elements they're considering!
If that's the new Senior quickstep pattern, kill me now. The spirals look much easier since they took out the quick mohawks.

I kind of like the changes to Novice - the first two patterns are killer, and so much stroking is ludicrous. But twizzles? Meh. Take dance.

[CoachPA]

I also did it this way - it is totally optional - and this is how one might do it if they are an icedancer (except for the Westminster Waltz I don't think there is another dance where one would do that brush-back) AND I think that actually it is harder because the brush-back helps the rotation...

I teach a "push-behind" extension on the third step of the sequence, which I assume is the "brush-back" you're talking about. Like you said, that helps with rotation because it trains skaters to keep their backs against the circle, putting them on a nice BO edge and helping them to maintain a outside edge when the step forward for the fourth (step) extension.

Where I'm from (Pennsylvania), everyone teaches a back extension, so the forward extension must be yet another regional difference. To each their own.

[mdvask8r]

Re the 5-step mohawk -- my coach (an ice dancer & freestyler) also teaches the BO edge after the mohawk w/the free leg extended in front. I love the look of it and it really helps in getting the feet back together for the next step to FO. Keep it neat! Most in our area do the extension to the back. The judges all passed me on the move with very positive comments. As it says in the rule book, free leg position is optional.

[CoachPA]

Speaking of dance, there's quite a variation in this Dutch Waltz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81oGSIONg6Y&feature=related) and the way I teach the dance to my skaters, which appears about 6 second into the dance.

Notice how in the video, the skaters do a progressive, a LFO edge (stroke), and follow that with another progressive before rounding the corner with another progressive. While the skaters are doing the correct edges (progressive, LFO, RFI, progressive), all the coaches--including myself--teach that part of the dance as progressive, LFO (stroke), RFI (stroke), progressive. I've never seen it done this way before, but I guess as long as the skater skates the correct edges, which they are, the steps are correct. Again, it's all about individual interpretation.

I've also heard of skaters (though not in my region) whose LFO and RFI edges toward the end of the end pattern (heading into the repeat) are a progressive rather than strokes, which is what is taught in my region. The skaters in the example video do the progressive here as well. Still, they are on the correct edges with the correct timing (1,2,3-4,5,6).

[aussieskater]

Speaking of dance, there's quite a variation in this Dutch Waltz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81oGSIONg6Y&feature=related) and the way I teach the dance to my skaters, which appears about 6 second into the dance.

Notice how in the video, the skaters do a progressive, a LFO edge (stroke), and follow that with another progressive before rounding the corner with another progressive. While the skaters are doing the correct edges (progressive, LFO, RFI, progressive), all the coaches--including myself--teach that part of the dance as progressive, LFO (stroke), RFI (stroke), progressive. I've never seen it done this way before, but I guess as long as the skater skates the correct edges, which they are, the steps are correct. Again, it's all about individual interpretation.

I've also heard of skaters (though not in my region) whose LFO and RFI edges toward the end of the end pattern (heading into the repeat) are a progressive rather than strokes, which is what is taught in my region. The skaters in the example video do the progressive here as well. Still, they are on the correct edges with the correct timing (1,2,3-4,5,6).

Regional differences indeed - your link shows how the dance is taught here, and any candidate not doing the progressives in a test would probably be failed for incorrect steps. The only thing which might save them is that the Dutch is the first test, and candidates aren't expected to have perfection at that level. Here's the link from our rulebook, showing that the official steps in Australia are not strokes, they are in fact runs and progressives (page 10 of the document):

http://www.isa.org.au/Documents/Rulebook/ISA%20Rulebook%20-%20V-8%20-%20Appendix%20D%20-%20Introductory%20Dance%20Patterns.pdf

On a separate related note: I never really read the steps direct from the rule book before ( :oops: ), and I suddenly noticed that steps 6 to 8 form a "run", but steps 9 to 11 form a "progressive" ... I was always taught that these were the same thing??? What is the difference (if any) between a forward run and a forward progressive? The skaters in your link appear to be doing the same steps both times?

[CoachPA]

On a separate related note: I never really read the steps direct from the rule book before ( :oops: ), and I suddenly noticed that steps 6 to 8 form a "run", but steps 9 to 11 form a "progressive" ... I was always taught that these were the same thing??? What is the difference (if any) between a forward run and a forward progressive? The skaters in your link appear to be doing the same steps both times?

Here's a past thread (http://skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=26944&highlight=progressive+run) regarding runs vs. progressives.

[RachelSk8er]

On the subject of the power pull/quick rockers--I've seen people do 3, I've seen people do 4 (at the same rink, same test session, and the test passed). I'm pretty sure the rulebook states 3-4 (I'm at work and don't have it in front of me otherwise I'd check). I normally do 4 and have plenty of room to fit them in but I don't have a ton of speed.

[jskater49]

Speaking of dance, there's quite a variation in this Dutch Waltz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81oGSIONg6Y&feature=related) and the way I teach the dance to my skaters, which appears about 6 second into the dance.

Notice how in the video, the skaters do a progressive, a LFO edge (stroke), and follow that with another progressive before rounding the corner with another progressive. While the skaters are doing the correct edges (progressive, LFO, RFI, progressive), all the coaches--including myself--teach that part of the dance as progressive, LFO (stroke), RFI (stroke), progressive. I've never seen it done this way before, but I guess as long as the skater skates the correct edges, which they are, the steps are correct. Again, it's all about individual interpretation.

I've also heard of skaters (though not in my region) whose LFO and RFI edges toward the end of the end pattern (heading into the repeat) are a progressive rather than strokes, which is what is taught in my region. The skaters in the example video do the progressive here as well. Still, they are on the correct edges with the correct timing (1,2,3-4,5,6).

I was taught to stroke but I've seen the so-called "progressive" around here too. I say "so-called" because everyone I've seen do it that way does a crossover. I think it would make it easier because it curves you round more than the strokes do.

Joelle

[CoachPA]

I was taught to stroke but I've seen the so-called "progressive" around here too. I say "so-called" because everyone I've seen do it that way does a crossover. I think it would make it easier because it curves you round more than the strokes do.

Joelle

Same here. My young, or beginner, skaters just don't seem to grasp the difference between a crossover, in which the free foot literally sets down crossed over the skating foot, and progressives in which the free foot progresses across the ice while crossing (on the ice).

I've found that the judges don't really make much note of this error though as the Dutch Waltz is more or less an "encouragement dance." I think us coaches pick on this more than the judges do with the beginning dances.

[icedancer2]

I've found that the judges don't really make much note of this error though as the Dutch Waltz is more or less an "encouragement dance." I think us coaches pick on this more than the judges do with the beginning dances.

I have heard a LOT of discussion at various rinks in different parts of the country about the subject of those "corner steps" (for lack of a better term) - in the Dutch Waltz. It's a good thing it's a Preliminary - but it's funny that it warrants so much discussion!!

I heard that Jerod Swallow said once that if the Dutch Waltz were a Gold Dance no one would pass it, because actually it is NOT an easy dance! Good thing it's at the Preliminary level!

(and BTW, the skaters in the video do it like we do in my current area and in fact one of the skaters in the video is from my area - and both of the skaters are adult competitors in Championship Dance - and I believe the guy has been the Championship Dance champion for several years now!).

I also think it depends on the size of the rink. Here in Portland we have our social dance sessions in a mall rink - it is shorter and definitely not as wide as a normal NHL rink - so our patterns are definitely a bit truncated to fit into our rink - doing the Dutch Waltz on a 200 ft rink length with a "normal" width is definitely different than doing it in our small rink or even NHL-sized rink, in terms of the depth of lobe, etc., and can also affect how one might choose to do those end steps.

There is quite a heated discussion going on about forward progressives over at the icedancers@yahoogroups site if anyone is interested...

Now I have to go check out those Junior Power Pulls and see who is right...

[Kelli]

On the subject of the power pull/quick rockers--I've seen people do 3, I've seen people do 4 (at the same rink, same test session, and the test passed). I'm pretty sure the rulebook states 3-4 (I'm at work and don't have it in front of me otherwise I'd check). I normally do 4 and have plenty of room to fit them in but I don't have a ton of speed.

I do 4 sets, and the last set is close enough to the wall that I sometimes have to rush the setup or veer slightly off pattern. A minor touchdown on the last set of rockers on the left foot caused me to fail this test last spring (coupled with a fall on the reskate of just the left foot). Three sets of rockers in my region would not pass. Sigh.

[coskater64]

At the Broadmoor they do 4 sets 75 miles north we do 3 sets, it all depends, with 4 sets they are deeper and slower, with 3 sets they are very fast and a bit shallower. I do 3 sets I still get within 5 feet of the wall, please note this and I pulled it off the Jr moves test sheets:

The skater will perform a sequence of three power pulls
followed by two quick twisting rockers. This sequence is then
repeated consecutively down the entire diagonal of the arena.
It is then perfomed on the oppostie diagonal of the arena on
the other foot. There should be a total of 3-4 sequences per
foot. Introductory and end steps are optional.


So all of you saying it would fail, that is not true according to the test page. It is a personal preference. As a tall skater 5'9" 3 lobes is very reasonable for my height, I tried 4 lobes and it didn't keep an even cadence and it ended about >1' from the wall. The primary focus is power and the secondary focus is quickness so it would seem being able to build the power would be key to this move, then easy quick turns.

Take it for what its worth.
:halo::halo:

[RachelSk8er]

Rink size is also a factor here. In my area we have three different sized rinks--some are NHL, at least one is Olympic, and there are a few which are NHL width (85') but slightly shorter (about 185' versus 200'). That makes a HUGE difference. (My usual rink is NHL; my summer rinks are both NHL; I skate once a week at another rink with 2 surfaces, one smaller than NHL and the other Olympic but our session is on the Olympic rink; sometimes for nostalgic purposes I'll go to the rink I pretty much grew up in, which is also the smaller size, hence why I don't skate there any more). I can fit 4 patterns in no problem on the Olympic rink, usually on the NHL if I start close enough to the wall, but there is NO WAY I'd get 4 in on the smaller rink. Luckily I don't skate on the small rink more than a few times a year.

But no one regardless of where you live should be failed for only doing 3 sets of power pull/turns if the rulebook states 3-4.

[CoachPA]

So all of you saying it would fail, that is not true according to the test page. It is a personal preference.

True. Perhaps its more about what judges, coaches, or skaters have come to expect for a particular region/rink.