Is an inside Axel judged the same?

[luckeylasvegas]

Ok, this may be long.....
DD has been struggling to land her Axel for a long while now. She has Osgood Schlater in her left knee and can't get the lift she needs jumping off her left leg. Her coach showed her an inside Axel today which she landed no problem after 3 tries :frus:. My question is, can she compete in ISI FS5 or Pre Pre with an inside Axel or are the judges going to want to see a traditional Axel? Everything else she does spins, footwork ect. are FS5 or higher she can even land her 2 sal, 2 flip and 2 loop most of the time. I am soooo tired of this one jump holding her back.

[Skittl1321]

I'm thinking that in ISI it would be judged as a seperate, uncaptured skill.

The axel is described as:
Axel Jump The takeoff must be from the forward outside edge of one foot. The skater must rotate one and one-half times in the direction of the curve of the takeoff edge and must land on the backward outside edge of the opposite foot.

And an inside axel doesn't do that. So I don't think it qualifies.

Can she rotate the other way so that she takes off on the right leg (of course, that might be disqualified as being a FS 9 move)?


For USFS- an inside axel should be considered an "axel-type" jump.

[dbny]

Has she been to a pediatric orthopedist for her O-S? I'm surprised she's allowed to jump at all until it's totally resolved.

[luckeylasvegas]

Has she been to a pediatric orthopedist for her O-S? I'm surprised she's allowed to jump at all until it's totally resolved.

Yes, she has seen a pediatric orthopedic surgeon and is in therapy 2 x's a week. We do limit the amount of jumping she does and focus on her moves and spins. He said that she's not going to do any damage to her knee and that it's more of an agrivation to her. So she does what she can while wearing a brace and the tells her coach when she's had enough.

[Isk8NYC]

She could do an showcase or interpretive program since there are no requirements in those events. I know it's not the same, but it keeps her involved while she waits for the knee issue to be resolved.

She'll definitely lose points for omitting the required element - an regular axel.

I don't know that she'd gain extra points for the inside axel because I'm not certain that that jump IS uncaptured. (My handbook is packed - can you check?) The Inside Axel is at the end of the footwork sequence for FS 9. As a result, she might get a penalty for including a higher-level element in her FS5 program.

The ISI or the competition director might be able to grant an exception, but I don't think they will. At least you'll get a clarification of the consequences if you ask them.


Alternately, if the placements don't matter to her/you/coach/etc., just set up the program with the inside axel and take the penalty or insert a waltz jump which has no penalty.

A lot of work goes into creating a program: music selection, choreography, costume, etc. If you "dumb down" that element in the program, the axel can just be added when her knee is better. She'll have an advantage because she'll already know the choreography and other elements. Just a suggestion.

Check the entry forms for the USFSA competitions; I've seen some that say "No axel/double jumps" on more than one event. That would be perfect for her. (I assume she's passed the Pre-Prel Freestyle test.)

[techskater]

For USFS- an inside axel should be considered an "axel-type" jump.

No, an inside Axel does not count as an "Axel-type" jump under IJS rules - Axel-type jumps include Axels, Double Axels, Triple Axels and 1-foot (taking off from the fwd outside edge and landing on the same foot on an inside edge) of each of the previous three listed. My coach is a TS who knows these rules inside out and I skate with several Intermediate-Seniors who have an inside Axel as a warm up exercise AND who use it or have used it in footwork sequences and as an attention gaining connecting step/program opener and having seen their protocols, are not using up a jump box, nor does my aforementioned coach ever give them a warning about using it when she critiques for the kids. The only issue with the inside Axel using up a jump box is if the pre-rotation is too much and it ends up being a loop (which WILL be called as a jump pass).

[Skittl1321]

No, an inside Axel does not count as an "Axel-type" jump under IJS rules - Axel-type jumps include Axels, Double Axels, Triple Axels and 1-foot

Sorry, I was thinking it would be judged as 6.0- since her skater doesn't have an axel yet, and the OP was inquiring about Pre-Pre, I've never seen a competition that judges these under IJS. So while I knew there were no point values assigned to inside axels in IJS, I thought that if well balanced program in 6.0 required axel type, that this was axel-type. Then again, since low levels don't have freeskate/short program, they usually do not have any sort of required elements, just restrictions. So while it may allow axel-type jumps, unless the competition is doing a "short program" and a "freeskate" as two events (like Badger state games, for example) she doesn't HAVE to do an axel, even if other competitiors do.

To the OP- I hadn't thought of this anyway, but do your ISI competitions allow skaters to skate up? The only ones I've seen you have to have passed the test of the level you are competing at. So if she doesn't have the axel yet, she couldn't compete ISI 5 anyhow, because she needs it for the test.


I agree with Isk8NYC that limited and interp events would be a great idea, as she won't have to worry about what other skaters are doing. Another thing to do would be to really concentrate on getting through MITF tests- a great accomplishment, without having to jump.


Techskater- as for filling jump boxes- if the skater isn't do triples (Zayak rule) does it really matter if it gets called as something else? Since this skater is intending it as a jump, and not a footwork connector.

[Isk8NYC]

To the OP- I hadn't thought of this anyway, but do your ISI competitions allow skaters to skate up? The only ones I've seen you have to have passed the test of the level you are competing at. So if she doesn't have the axel yet, she couldn't compete ISI 5 anyhow, because she needs it for the test.You're so smart. I didn't even notice that she said the daughter has NEVER had an axel. You're right: How could she have passed the FS5 test in that case? It's the "big element" that always keeps kids in FS4. Very smart to draw that conclusion.

Everyone's supposed to take and pass the ISI tests to determine the levels, but I have seen a few ISI competitions (like Lake Placid) that offer USFSA "equivalent" crossovers. I think you're right: Pre-Prel is a FS4 equivalent, not FS5.

[luckeylasvegas]

Here everyone who skates prepre has their Axel. And no my DD has not tested out of FS5 because of it (it's the only thing keeping her out of fs6). She can compete in FS4 and no-test, she is just having a hard time right now being passed up by all the girls that she used to skate with as well as some that were well behind her. I'm pretty sure that when this knee problem passes she will catch right up. Right now she is working on her pre-juv moves. I guess I'm (were) just going to have to be paitent. It's so hard to see your child sidelined due to an injury.

[Skittl1321]

It's so hard to see your child sidelined due to an injury.

It is- I totally agree with you, but she's still skating, she's not sidelined yet! If the competition announcement does not say an axel is required for pre-pre, just that it is allowed, then she can definetly still skate pre-pre. She is just going to have to have strong enough skills in other areas to make up that deficit if all the other skaters have it.

I understand the feeling of being passed by skaters who you used to be better than. I'm an adult, so of course I get passed by kids all the time. Skaters who I take lessons with pass me up in an incredibly short amount of time on jumps, but it takes them a lot longer to pass me on moves, and in some cases my spins are better too. Everyone has strengths- don't use the level number to define her. Look at each skill.

Is there a synchro team at her level? If her footwork is strong, that's somewhere, other than Interp or Dance, she could excel without jumps.

[Ellyn]

Here everyone who skates prepre has their Axel.

Here, most skaters who skate prepre include axels, but not all. It's probably less common among the older kids who started later, whereas the 6- to 9-year-olds are more likely to hang out in No Test until they get it.

And those who do attempt them in their programs don't always succeed and/or land them underrotated, or they might have problems with other elements.

I would say that it's perfectly possible to place well in prepre without an axel IF the overall quality of the basic skating, the other single jumps, and the spins are all pretty good for that level. Including an extra element that the other kids don't have such as inside axel would only be another plus.

The same could be true at Preliminary level if the skater has good other skills for that level, especially if she also has a few doubles. At that level, the US well-balanced program requirements do require an axel/waltz jump-type jump, but that requirement could easily be fulfilled with a waltz jump, perhaps in combo or sequence with some other jump(s).

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/Notest-PrejuvSinglesFSElements.pdf

At prejuvenile level at least an attempt at an axel will be expected. And at juvenile level it would be required to pass the test, and many of the competitions would be under IJS. But that would be thinking far ahead for the skater mentioned in the original post.