There is no more "Against the Book"

[jskater49]

So this weekend our competition referee told me they had so many parents complaining about their precious children not getting first place when they were the only one in their group they no longer are allowed to give you anything but a gold medal if you are the only one in your group.

This is a very recent rule so your past gold's "against the book" probably mean something but hate to spoil it for you but thought you should know.

I think that is as stupid new rule myself. I've gotten enough 3rd places against the book but it made the 1st place meaningful. Now it's just stupd. Almost embarrassing to get a gold in some cases (like my spins)

j

[CoachPA]

I was wondering if the ISI had changed this recently! I judged at an ISI competition yesterday where several skaters would have technically been skating "against the book." I noticed, however, that none of the other judges were marking anything down on their judges sheets, which also did not have the standard point range listed. Good to know!

[Skate@Delaware]

Well, this sort of bites! As the only one in my "group" I skate against the book. I don't want to be arbitrarily given something just for showing up. I want it to mean something more than tha!

going to stew about this for a while and talk to my coach.

[CoachPA]

Well, this sort of bites! As the only one in my "group" I skate against the book. I don't want to be arbitrarily given something just for showing up. I want it to mean something more than tha!

Exactly. There are still standards for each element that need to be met. Skating "against the book", I feel, at least gave skaters who didn't have a chance to compete against other skaters the chance to compete against themselves and receive [the judges] feedback through their placement, so to speak. Automatically placing a skater first simply because he/she showed up...I don't know. I think whoever changed this rule needs to remember that sometimes just "showing up" isn't enough.

[Skittl1321]

I was wondering if the ISI had changed this recently! I judged at an ISI competition yesterday where several skaters would have technically been skating "against the book." I noticed, however, that none of the other judges were marking anything down on their judges sheets, which also did not have the standard point range listed. Good to know!

I haven't seen anything from ISI that this rule changed- and I thought Jskater was running a USFS competition this weekend.

I am only a bronze level ISI judge, and have only done one competition- but with judges who have done it for years and years. They told me that for low levels and little kids, unless there is a huge error, or an element omission, just to mark them as first. For adults and upper levels (which I can't judge), they recommended actually scoring them against the book. So maybe the judges you were scoring with prescribed to this theory? IIRC there were no points ranges for skaters against the book- we scored a percentage of elements hit- 100%, 80% etc.

[CoachPA]

I haven't seen anything from ISI that this rule changed- and I thought Jskater was running a USFS competition this weekend.

Ahhh, good point! J, was this competition US FS or ISI?

I am only a bronze level ISI judge, and have only done one competition- but with judges who have done it for years and years. They told me that for low levels and little kids, unless there is a huge error, or an element omission, just to mark them as first. For adults and upper levels (which I can't judge), they recommended actually scoring them against the book. So maybe the judges you were scoring with prescribed to this theory? IIRC there were no points ranges for skaters against the book- we scored a percentage of elements hit- 100%, 80% etc.

I recently got my gold level judging certification and have judged at several ISI competitions over the past three years, all of which have a slightly different way of judging skaters who are "against the book." For the most part, we score as you mentioned: first place for skaters who do not have major errors and who do not omit an element.

Higher level skaters we tend to place based on the ISI test standards, so if they're having a difficult time achieving the minimum number of revolutions in a spin or seriously under-rotate a double jump, for instance, we deduct off the standard point range listed on the judges sheet.

[twokidsskatemom]

this is a new usfsa rule, not an ISI rule. Was changed at gov council this past May.

[CoachPA]

this is a new usfsa rule, not an ISI rule. Was changed at gov council this past May.

Thanks for clearing that up! I hadn't heard anything through the ISI about this, and I must have overlooked the change in the governing council information I received from the US FS a while back.

[Mel On Ice]

Hm. I've never done a USFSA "against the book" event. Competitions I've been to will try to combine the event to make it a real competition (bronze I/II, ask me to skate up to silver) or refund my entry fee before they'd let me skate against myself.

[Skittl1321]

So what is the official stance for USFS competitions now that you can't skate against the book? Is the event canceled if it cannot be combined?

I know I'd be pretty irritated if I paid all that money for a competition, and then found out I would be doing an exhibition, since the judges more or less wouldn't be paying attention to what I did at all.

[jskater49]

Yes it was a USFS competition.

We have small competitions and can't afford to give refunds if there's only one in your group.

There was one Bronze adult skater and just me for pre bronze FS --If I'd known about the rule I'd have asked the referee to combine us. I'd rather get a second then a stupid gold for showing up. Although I'm sure it' be no great accomplishment for the bronze skater to beat me :/

j

[vesperholly]

Some of the dance events at Adult Sectionals last year were against the book. I thought it was pretty lame and I'm glad I've never had to do it. Competitions in my area have always canceled or combined events with one entry, rather than run them against the book.

[RachelSk8er]

I actually think I'd rather see 6.0 events against the book. At least for gold and masters skaters (IF IJS is used) they'll get a score, and that score can be used as a concrete basis of what needs improvement. You really don't get that under 6.0. I know judges are crazy busy at some of these competitions, but maybe for skaters competing as the only one in their category, a quick critique would be helpful. After all, those who aren't competing against anyone are still paying the same entry fees as everyone else. I know some of the judges will gladly give a critique if you personally take the initiative and ask them, but not everyone will do that on their own.

[sk8lady]

I've never been in an "against the book" event. Our local events generally offer a choice of skating as an exhibition or a refund if no one else enters the event.
I'd rather do that than skate against no one and STILL come in last!!

[twokidsskatemom]

So what is the official stance for USFS competitions now that you can't skate against the book? Is the event canceled if it cannot be combined?

I know I'd be pretty irritated if I paid all that money for a competition, and then found out I would be doing an exhibition, since the judges more or less wouldn't be paying attention to what I did at all.
I think its either move up one level,refund or a critque.Who it effects the most would be adults,and boys.We move up a level when we can but even then my son might be alone.We lucked out his last USFSA comp, he had two other boys even though he was 7 and they were 11, almost 12.
If you do a critque, you do get to talk to the judges.

[jskater49]

I think its either move up one level,refund or a critque.Who it effects the most would be adults,and boys.We move up a level when we can but even then my son might be alone.We lucked out his last USFSA comp, he had two other boys even though he was 7 and they were 11, almost 12.
If you do a critque, you do get to talk to the judges.

There is no "official stance" from USFS - We had a very small competition and lots of kids skated by themselves and we gave them a gold medal. We could not afford to give refunds. Around here we have lots of small competitions and it used to be quite common to skate against the book.

yes you and your coach go find a place to talk to the judges. I think in the future we are going to have to offer that or an exhibition for the higher levels. I'm okay with giving the little kids a gold medal for showing up...but it's really pretty meaningless to the older kids who know better.

j

[AshBugg44]

Double post sorry

[AshBugg44]

I haven't seen anything from ISI that this rule changed- and I thought Jskater was running a USFS competition this weekend.

I am only a bronze level ISI judge, and have only done one competition- but with judges who have done it for years and years. They told me that for low levels and little kids, unless there is a huge error, or an element omission, just to mark them as first. For adults and upper levels (which I can't judge), they recommended actually scoring them against the book. So maybe the judges you were scoring with prescribed to this theory? IIRC there were no points ranges for skaters against the book- we scored a percentage of elements hit- 100%, 80% etc.

That's basically how it works....In ISI you have to score 80% to get first against the book.

If I was judging an Alpha skater again him/herself, as long as they attempt al the elements, they're gonna get first. Now if they left out, let's say, their crossovers, they wouldn't.

In FS 5, if they attempt an axel that's really a waltz jump/back spin, I'm not going to give them credit for "attempting" the element.

[blue111moon]

In my club Open, we've never allowed a competitor to skate against the book.

If there's only one entry in a category, then we offer the skater the choice between skating up into the next highest level (which a lot of the old/higher competitiors choose to do for the experience), skating for a judges' critique, skating an exhibition (with a partial refund) or withdrawing with a refund.

If it's possible we'll combine groups, like Adult Pre-Bronze/Bronze FS or Novice/Junior/Senior Showcase.

Most people are okay with the options that allow them skate.

ETA: I think I remember one case where a boy skated alone in aTest Track event where the judges put him second, because in their opinion, he would not have passed the test and they wanted him to know that. So in that event, yes, he was skating "against the book."

[looplover]

I've had to skate against the book a bunch of times in ISI. I never really felt like I won.

I'd rather have to do it in USFSA though than have the event cancelled, that would be a shame after working so hard and potentially traveling/rearranging schedules. I know of one competition in FL that cancelled an event and the adult skater had really worked hard to train. I considered going down to that one this year, but didn't because if they cancelled it would have screwed up my vacation time at work.

[jskater49]

I've had to skate against the book a bunch of times in ISI. I never really felt like I won.

I'd rather have to do it in USFSA though than have the event cancelled, that would be a shame after working so hard and potentially traveling/rearranging schedules. I know of one competition in FL that cancelled an event and the adult skater had really worked hard to train. I considered going down to that one this year, but didn't because if they cancelled it would have screwed up my vacation time at work.


I figure the more experience I get skating in front of judges...the better. I've had lots of events cancelled because I was the only one and I found that very disappointing.

j

[Skittl1321]

I figure the more experience I get skating in front of judges...the better. I've had lots of events cancelled because I was the only one and I found that very disappointing.

j

But are you really skating in front of judges if they aren't judging you? If there isn't a book to score against, it seems like your program becomes an ice-side coffee break.

[jskater49]

But are you really skating in front of judges if they aren't judging you? If there isn't a book to score against, it seems like your program becomes an ice-side coffee break.

I looked right at the judges and they were watching me and one of them even commented to me afterwards how much better I was at keepting my head up. Like I've said, around here we and the judges are used to one person groups and the judges watch...and they watched, even though they had to give everyone first place.

To me, just the experience of skating in front of people is good. I guess it's what you are used to. If you aren't used to skating in a group alone, you may not like the idea of it. If you are used to it, you are rather annoyed when they cancel for that reason.

j

[doubletoe]

Around here, single skaters are also given the option to (1) combine with another group if those in the other group agree to it, (2) do an exhibition and get a critique from the judges, or (3) get a refund. There have been two times I've been the only skater and each time I got a *really* thorough critique because the judges felt bad for me, LOL! That was well worth the entry fee! :D

[CoachPA]

But are you really skating in front of judges if they aren't judging you? If there isn't a book to score against, it seems like your program becomes an ice-side coffee break.

When I judge any skater, regardless of whether he/she skating against other skaters or the book, I always give my undivided attention to that skater. To give off the impression that a skater's performance does not matter or is secondary to a skater competing against other skaters seems just outright...well, rude.

I'm sure there are some judges who feel that "against the book" skaters don't care about being judged; however, I find this hard to believe when you consider how much practice a skater put into his/her program, the fact that they still paid an entry fee to compete and got competition-ready, etc. Every skater deserves the right to respectful judges who can give him/her a few minutes of their time.

[jenlyon60]

For me, it depends on the event. If it's a single skater in a showcase or artistic or interp type event, I'll watch but I won't necessarily take notes.

If it's a more technical event, for example a free-skating event, I'll generally take some notes as to what elements were skated and anything that stands out (good or bad) about the execution/performance/etc.

One never knows when you might be asked to do a critique of that solo skater.

[Skittl1321]

When I judge any skater, regardless of whether he/she skating against other skaters or the book, I always give my undivided attention to that skater. To give off the impression that a skater's performance does not matter or is secondary to a skater competing against other skaters seems just outright...well, rude.


I have no doubt that judges watch against the book programs- they have to figure out a placement for the skater against the book. The point is- if the skater is NOT against the book, since that isn't being done anymore, just in a group of their own, how much attention is really necessary? They aren't competting against anything- not another skater, not themselves to a set standard. How is that a competition? I think it was a silly decision of USFS.

What exactly do the judges need to judge with this new situation? Skater steps on ice- they get first place. I have absolutely no problem skating in a group of one against the book. But I just don't understand a competition, if you are in your own group, where you aren't even being scored against anything, but just given a first place. I would hope most competitions offer a short critique. Because instead you are paying a lot of money to be handed a gold medal. What makes this a competition and not an exhibition?

[Mrs Redboots]

I have no doubt that judges watch against the book programs- they have to figure out a placement for the skater against the book. The point is- if the skater is NOT against the book, since that isn't being done anymore, just in a group of their own, how much attention is really necessary? They aren't competting against anything- not another skater, not themselves to a set standard. How is that a competition? I think it was a silly decision of USFS.

Here, I have seen skaters skate alone in a class, and they do get marks from the judges. There's not normally any question but that they will take home a gold medal, or the relevant trophy, but the judges do still look and mark.

[CoachPA]

Here, I have seen skaters skate alone in a class, and they do get marks from the judges. There's not normally any question but that they will take home a gold medal, or the relevant trophy, but the judges do still look and mark.

Yeah, that's how we judge in my region as well.

[Skittl1321]

I promise I'm not trying to be difficult, I just think this is such a silly decision by USFS.

But- what are judges marking if they are just handing out a gold? In most low level competitions marks are not announced to the crowd, nor to the skater- just ordinals, if those are even displayed- so what exactly are they scoring for?

[jenlyon60]

Well, technically if the event is a 6.0 scored event, we have to put down some sort of number between 0.0 and 6.0, to make the accounting system happy, so that it kicks out a sheet with "1 1 1 1 1" or one ordinal each for however many judges there are for the event.

[twokidsskatemom]

I have no doubt that judges watch against the book programs- they have to figure out a placement for the skater against the book. The point is- if the skater is NOT against the book, since that isn't being done anymore, just in a group of their own, how much attention is really necessary? They aren't competting against anything- not another skater, not themselves to a set standard. How is that a competition? I think it was a silly decision of USFS.

What exactly do the judges need to judge with this new situation? Skater steps on ice- they get first place. I have absolutely no problem skating in a group of one against the book. But I just don't understand a competition, if you are in your own group, where you aren't even being scored against anything, but just given a first place. I would hope most competitions offer a short critique. Because instead you are paying a lot of money to be handed a gold medal. What makes this a competition and not an exhibition?
That is why you do a critque.At least you get to talk to the judges, see what they like. what they didnt,suggestions ect.Both my kids have done this, Ds due to being only boy and DD when she was younger .They do take notes, and even comment on outfits.

[jskater49]

I promise I'm not trying to be difficult, I just think this is such a silly decision by USFS.

But- what are judges marking if they are just handing out a gold? In most low level competitions marks are not announced to the crowd, nor to the skater- just ordinals, if those are even displayed- so what exactly are they scoring for?

I agree its' a ridiculis rule and it puts those of us trying to put on a small competition in a bind. If we have to cancel every event that has only one skater - that was quite a few events for us! I can see combining freeskate events. But how can you combine compulsaries or jumps or spins or dance? I have skated against bronze and silver skaters before and it's okay but it's pretty well known what the results are going to be.

I wish they would make it so you have "option" to skate against the book. So if it's a little 5 year old in basic 3 - give them a medal for showing up. But give me the option to skate against the book.

And I dont' particularly want to waste the judges time with a critique of my piddly pre-bronze program. I trust my coach to do that. Nor do I think a 10 year doing pre-pre jumps needs a critique.

HOnestly I don't know what we are going to do for our next competition.

j

j

[Ellyn]

Well, technically if the event is a 6.0 scored event, we have to put down some sort of number between 0.0 and 6.0, to make the accounting system happy, so that it kicks out a sheet with "1 1 1 1 1" or one ordinal each for however many judges there are for the event.

And if there are two skaters in an event with very different skill levels, the judges will have to put in numbers to get the system to kick out 1 1 1 1 1 and 2 2 2 2 2.

Which tells the skaters very little more than 1 1 1 1 1 does for an uncontested event. So depending on the size of the field and the range of skill level across it, small events under the ordinal system may not be much more than exercises in performing for an audience and collecting some medal even if there is more than one competitor.

Giving the actual scores would be useful if there were some kind of acknowledged standard so that skaters would know where they stood. E.g., the test-passing scores for test track events.

But for levels below preliminary/adult bronze, there aren't test scores to compare to or to give judges a common reference point to work from. So whatever numbers the judges gave wouldn't be very meaningful and would likely vary widely across the panel and therefore would not solve the problem.

[skaterJ]

Huh. In my second ever competition, I was "second out of one" and it was the best thing that could have happened. It really inspired me to work harder and overcome my fears (of falling, of being "on stage" etc.).

That's sad that parents aren't willing to allow their children to experience failure--those experiences are the ones that really help our character.