More than one coach?

[momof3chicks]

I noticed that a few of the skaters in our rink have more than one coach. Why would you do that, what would you look for, how would you know it is time?

My dd is working on pre-juv MIF and she just turned 8 earlier this month. She also technically landed her first axel yesterday, but she fell (she landed on her toe pick instead of her blade).

[sk8tmum]

specialists. We have a freeskate coach, a skills coach (Canadian, kind of like MIF) and a dance coach for each of the kids. Our freeskate coach does NOT teach the other disciplines; she is a high-level expert in freeskate. So, we need the other coaches. Some coaches teach all disciplines, some don't; some don't have the time (they are very busy) so parents will split up lessons to get more coaching time.

Cost can be a factor too. Our freeskate coach, b/c of who she is and her level of proficiency, is fairly expensive; we pay the skills and dance coaches at a lower rate b/c they are not as experienced and don't charge as much. Although our dance coach is booked solid every day, he can't charge as much as the freeskate coach due to competitive pressures on fees.

Plus ... it gives the kid a break and a new face/supporter/coach/perspective when they get a chance to work with someone different! Ours also work as a team, and communicate where they see new opportunities, weaknesses, ideas or medical/health issues and are able to brainstorm solutions and watch for challenges, which they might miss if there was only one pair of eyes.

[CoachPA]

I noticed that a few of the skaters in our rink have more than one coach. Why would you do that, what would you look for, how would you know it is time?

Some skaters become a part of "team coaching" for the very reasons that sk8tmum mentioned: specialization in a certain discipline and cost. Parents may also consider bringing in secondary coach due to a lack of available lesson with a skater's primary coach.

If you're looking to bring in a secondary coach who specializes in a particular discipline, such as dance or field moves, I'd recommend making sure that the potential coach's personality and coaching approach are compatible with your child. For instance, does the coach understand and share your skater's goals? Does he/she have the experience and knowledge to help your skater achieve those goals?

Answering those questions should give you a good starting point. From there, you can determine if the secondary coach (and your primary coach) is willing to participate in team coaching; if he/she has the available time to coach your child; their role in your child's skating; rates/fees, etc.

Adding a secondary coach is not for everyone. If you're considering making this switch, talk to your child's primary coach first. He/she should be able to guide you through the decision of when the right time is to add another coach and recommend some coaches if you both agree that additional coaches could be beneficial.

[dbny]

She also technically landed her first axel yesterday, but she fell (she landed on her toe pick instead of her blade).

FYI - all jumps are landed on the toepick, so that was correct. The toepick is also the last part of the blade to touch the ice on take off.

[sk8erord]

The rink I trained at did this, and it worked very well. My main coach for singles/pairs was Roger Bass, but I'd take spins from Yvonne Nicks, have some technical jump and pair work with Scott Wendland, and choreography from Diane (can't remember her last name, many skaters there had Phillip Mills do theirs). I'd even have the occasional lesson from Mr. Nicks. It was very effective. I agree 100% with this coaching method. Coaches who are jealous of their students and don't allow this are gimping their students. The coaches knew each other very well, knew each others' styles and strengths, and would recognize when their student could benefit from their experience and expertise.

I am coaching at a rink that is just building its program, and I'm stressing this with the director as a very important method to encourage. Fortunately, she agrees. Sometimes, a different way of approaching a challenge that a skater is facing, a different view point, or a different way of explaining it can make all the difference in the world. And some coaches may see things that others miss.

My first rink didn't do this, and it seriously hurt my progress, as my coach there was not as good at some aspects of coaching as she was at others - so I became very proficient in some areas, and very lacking in others.

[momof3chicks]

FYI - all jumps are landed on the toepick, so that was correct. The toepick is also the last part of the blade to touch the ice on take off.

Oh yes, that is why her coach felt like technically, she did it- she stayed on the toe pick though I guess and then fell. She probably surprised herself!

[Query]

Ask the main coach for advice. Most other coaches will have incompatible styles. They use different muscles, different alignment, different motions, different balance points, different timing, different skate fits, and so on, to accomplish similar things. (I tried too many coaches, and got very confused.) Your coach may be comfortable with certain other coaches - or may hate the whole idea.

BTW if you don't ask and the main coach complains to coaching organizations, your secondary coach could lose the right to coach.

[teresa]

I can see where working with more than one coach could be helpful. If one coach isn't making something clear maybe the other will. Still, I like working with just one. I've learned how my coach teaches and she's learned how I learn which makes things comfortable. I guess it's a personal thing and you need to try both to find out what is best for you.

teresa

[dbny]

Ask the main coach for advice. Most other coaches will have incompatible styles. They use different muscles, different alignment, different motions, different balance points, different timing, different skate fits, and so on, to accomplish similar things. (I tried too many coaches, and got very confused.) Your coach may be comfortable with certain other coaches - or may hate the whole idea.

BTW if you don't ask and the main coach complains to coaching organizations, your secondary coach could lose the right to coach.

This is not entirely true. Coaching styles most definitely differ, but for many elements, the balance point and muscles used are the same. Even timing is the same for things like MIF. For example, the waltz-8 is skated in three equal lobes. No matter how you count it, the timing must be the same.

It is simply a courtesy and good manners to ask one's coach if she or he minds your having lessons with another coach. It can, nevertheless, cause problems (mostly for the student), if you don't ask, and your coach is offended. It is the responsibility of every coach, when approached by a new student to first ask if that student already has a coach. If the student does have a coach, then the one being approached must contact the other coach simply to make sure there is no money owed. Even if the first coach does not like it, there is nothing he or she can do about it. Granted, there are some real loonies out there who can stir up a fuss, but as long as a coach has not solicited another coach's student, and no money is owed to the first coach, there is no official prohibition. On top of that, the official organizations are loathe to interfere and it really takes some very serious infractions of the coach's code of conduct to provoke any official response.

[emma]

I noticed that a few of the skaters in our rink have more than one coach. Why would you do that, what would you look for, how would you know it is time?

My dd is working on pre-juv MIF and she just turned 8 earlier this month. She also technically landed her first axel yesterday, but she fell (she landed on her toe pick instead of her blade).

My child has three coaches. We only used one for a long time but when we found out he would be unable to coach for a short while we added in two other coaches. Even when the primary coach returned we keep the other two. I highly reccommend having more than one coach. If for any reason one is away or at a competition the others know what your child needs to be working on. Also I use one coach mainly for jumps and spins another for moves and the primary coach for everything. I would never go back to just one coach. Oh, my child is an intermediate level skater now and we started with more than one coach at pre-juv level.

[momof3chicks]

My child has three coaches. We only used one for a long time but when we found out he would be unable to coach for a short while we added in two other coaches. Even when the primary coach returned we keep the other two. I highly reccommend having more than one coach. If for any reason one is away or at a competition the others know what your child needs to be working on. Also I use one coach mainly for jumps and spins another for moves and the primary coach for everything. I would never go back to just one coach. Oh, my child is an intermediate level skater now and we started with more than one coach at pre-juv level.

Thanks, I am not sure WHAT to look for in another coach. As a layman, I would say my dd needs more precision in her body position for jumps and spins. But what do I know? And how would I know WHO?

[CoachPA]

Thanks, I am not sure WHAT to look for in another coach. As a layman, I would say my dd needs more precision in her body position for jumps and spins. But what do I know? And how would I know WHO?

Ask your current coach for recommendations. He/she can guide you as to who may be a good fit for your daughter.

You can also watch prospective coaches during a freestyle session or when your daughter's skating. This gives you a chance to see how a coach coaches and his/her personality on the ice. You may also be able to rule out what qualities you like and don't like with a particular coach, how he/she interacts with other coaches and students, etc.

Lastly, perhaps you can speak to some parents at the rink whose children skate with a coach that you may be considering. Be careful with this though because doing so walks a fine line of having someone solicit his/her coach, which is unethical, and may provide you with a biased perspective. And, of course, you have to watch that rink rumors don't spread that you're looking to bring someone else in to your daughter's coaching relationship.

Definitely start with talking to your current coach first.

[sk8lady]

This is not entirely true.

It is simply a courtesy and good manners to ask one's coach if she or he minds your having lessons with another coach. It can, nevertheless, cause problems (mostly for the student), if you don't ask, and your coach is offended. It is the responsibility of every coach, when approached by a new student to first ask if that student already has a coach. If the student does have a coach, then the one being approached must contact the other coach simply to make sure there is no money owed. Even if the first coach does not like it, there is nothing he or she can do about it. Granted, there are some real loonies out there who can stir up a fuss, but as long as a coach has not solicited another coach's student, and no money is owed to the first coach, there is no official prohibition. On top of that, the official organizations are loathe to interfere and it really takes some very serious infractions of the coach's code of conduct to provoke any official response.

This is also not entirely correct. The PSA Code of Ethics requires that "Prior to acting as a coach the [PSA] member shall determine the nature and extent of any earlier teaching relationship with that skater and other members."
While it's certainly practical to contact a former coach of a new student to make sure they're not owed money (so that you don't wind up in the same situation) there's no requirement to do so; the requirement is that you determine whether there are other business relationships, past or present, with which you will be interfering if you start giving the student lessons--i.e., determine that you're not effectively soliciting someone else's student by giving them lessons behind the original coach's back.

While the PSA prefers that you attempt to settle this kind of matter between the coaches in a polite, professional manner, there are certainly official channels through which reports can be made (I got asked about this on my Registered exam).

I can't speak to how quick the PSA or USFS is to provide an "official response" but I don't think you need to be a "loonie" to be upset if another coach starts teaching your students without contacting you to make sure you know about it and are okay with it. We always do this within our club.

[sk8tmum]

Added into the other points: scheduling can be an issue as well. If your coach is at the arena on Tuesday, say, and your skater is the first skater in their group, then, the other coaches have to work around that schedule, and be able to ... so availability is a consideration. You also want to avoid the lesson/lesson/lesson scenario, in which a variety of coaches all use the same session or time to coach the skater: it gets overwhelming and tiring, and it can lead to scheduling conflicts.

What works for us is that the "secondary" coaches are organized by our primary coach. Yes, it is ethical the way it is organized, I'm not going to run thru the details of how the Skate Canada coaching ethics policy works, but, the long and short of it is that our primary coach has certain secondary coaches that she works with, and they are a team. If I wanted to use a different secondary coach, that's my choice, and I've done that in the past, however, for courtesy, I do tell the primary coach of the decision (and the reason, communication being important). But, it takes stress off of me knowing that these coaches are ones that my coach trusts and respects and believes are good coaches, with similar coaching philosophies to hers. Because I trust my own coach absolutely ... also, interestingly, she has different secondary coaches for different skaters based on the "fit" and the "need" of each skater - and it's a very happy and effective bunch of coaches who are really contributing to a good skating environment for a range of different skaters. We like it - ! But, it all comes down to trusting our primary coach and her professionalism - but, then again, the relationship has been going on for a long time with more than one kid ...

[sk8tmum]

Thanks, I am not sure WHAT to look for in another coach. As a layman, I would say my dd needs more precision in her body position for jumps and spins. But what do I know? And how would I know WHO?


Maybe some off-ice? Just to bring in a random point ... some off-ice training to build body/kinesthetic awareness and strength ... could help with this. What does your coach say your DD needs?

[Virtualsk8r]

Maybe some off-ice? Just to bring in a random point ... some off-ice training to build body/kinesthetic awareness and strength ... could help with this. What does your coach say your DD needs?


I agree! So often I have had skaters whose parents thought they knew what the poor child needed ....you can hear them yelling in the stands or motioning to the child - arms up arms up or don't slouch etc. and then give the poor kid a hard time at home, then the next lesson the skater says "my mother says I need to work on my arms, freeleg etc.." However, when it is explained to the parents that their child needs core strength and balance to actually work effectively on the ice, they don't seem to get it -- and the ballet, pilates or stretch classes at the rink are skipped.

A good primary coach will know how to work with the problems that occur in skaters as they develop. Kids grow different body parts at different times, and learning to hold up dangling arms, or pointing awkward freelegs - or even keeping the skating butt under control - is often just part of the learning curve. Minor changes or correction by a coach that really knows your child is what the skater needs -- not more of the same by a new coach.

Consistency and stability is the way to learn for most skaters. Splitting lessons among a bunch of 'experts' means that no one is responsible for the skater. It's hard to understand what makes a skater tick on just one lesson a week, however, if you have that student for half a hour six days a week - you begin to figure out what habits, abilities and struggles a skater has and learn what works or not.

[momof3chicks]

Maybe some off-ice? Just to bring in a random point ... some off-ice training to build body/kinesthetic awareness and strength ... could help with this. What does your coach say your DD needs?

She used to do a lot of it, but the times got really whacky at the rinks near us. And now her sister is skating too, so I am really struggling on schedules- but you are probably right about off ice.

[sk8tmum]

She used to do a lot of it, but the times got really whacky at the rinks near us. And now her sister is skating too, so I am really struggling on schedules- but you are probably right about off ice.

Can understand completely ... 3 on the ice. What we did: had the off-ice instructor give them a program to do at home. They do it at home; once a month we check in and she reviews the progress. Costs the same to hire her for a 30 min class once a month privately as it would to join the class. Great flexibility in time and all that ... and you can book the off-ice lady at a convenient time for you. Don't know if you have that option???? Your coach could maybe be able to point you at someone who could do it ... maybe ...

[momof3chicks]

Can understand completely ... 3 on the ice. What we did: had the off-ice instructor give them a program to do at home. They do it at home; once a month we check in and she reviews the progress. Costs the same to hire her for a 30 min class once a month privately as it would to join the class. Great flexibility in time and all that ... and you can book the off-ice lady at a convenient time for you. Don't know if you have that option???? Your coach could maybe be able to point you at someone who could do it ... maybe ...

That is a thought, it used to be that the off ice was at the time when one of them took LTS (the other is done) so it was perfect.

[heyjude]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum and relatively new to skating - but learning fast!

My kids (non-skaters at the time but one with a background in gymnastics) were spotted by a Russian dance coach almost two years ago and are now training most days of the week.

They currently have a number of coaches: one for jumps and spins; one for putting together competition programs; one for dance, off-ice and technical elements and an additional coach who takes them in a group squad.

This seems to make sense as each coach has different strengths. And it seems to be working because as far as my inexperienced eye can see they are being turned into beautiful little skaters!

[Query]

Coaching styles most definitely differ, but for many elements, the balance point and muscles used are the same.

Maybe it's just my relative inexperience, but I was kind of surprised to be taught that forward skating should be done balanced on the front, middle or back of the blade, depending on the coach. That in turn meant they taught body part alignment different - e.g., does the head balance over the ball, midfoot or closer to the heel.

Likewise, some coaches have taught me to initiate 3 turns swinging the upper body around, until it pulls the lower body with it. Others don't want the upper body to do much of anything - it should all be done by up-down-up motions of the skating knee. Others want both, in various proportions.

And yes, coaches have differed on which part of the blade one should rotate in spins and twizzles.

Again, the muscles they say to use to check turns (very hard for me) are near the core (abdominal/lower back), or come across the upper body, or go diagonally across the back from one to the other area, depending on the instructor.

Likewise head/neck/leg/body alignment differ on how to spin, even for the same very basic spins I have tried to learn.

Again, I have had a coach teach me that almost all crossovers and progressives should be initiated by counter-rotating the upper and lower body parts against eachother; other coaches taught the opposite, or a mixture of both, depending on circumstances.

Coaches have differed substantially on how much body tension should be used to maintain poses, and using which muscles.

I finally decided that one coach, one style, made more sense for me.

I recently watched the Skate America competition - everyone there were very high level skaters. Went back and tried analyze a little of their jump technique in slow motion. They created angular momentum for rotational jumps in what appeared to be radically different ways. Some appear to generate most of the angular momentum by swinging legs and other body parts through, starting with body parts quite far from body central axis, and closing in - getting almost nothing from the ice. Others got something significant from sticking a toe into the ice, and emphasized a stronger vertical push from the skating leg, and never had any body parts too far from the center, though of course all closed body parts somewhat into the center. One gal (the lady's winner) combined the otherwise distinct styles. (Perhaps they all use the same basic techniques, but in very different proportions.)

If all these relatively basic things can differ so much, I would hesitate to casually mix different teaching styles.

Perhaps a more advanced skater learns to combine the different techniques, or tries several until one works for them.