Skater Lists @ Competitions [Archive]

sk8er1964

10-22-2008, 10:25 PM

She's talking about posting who is in a particular group for an event in a competition. Some competitions give your competitor lists ahead of time, some don't.

Black Sheep, you are a II, right? The II/III event has 12 minutes available, and the I event has 11 minutes. Somewhere there is a three-five minute warm up. They way I see it is that the II/III event has three - possibly four - skaters. If it is three, then it is you, me and Techskater because you both are II's now, right? I'm a III.

It all doesn't matter anyway, since it is how you skate that is important, not who you compete with!

jskater49

10-23-2008, 07:28 AM

Oh. Well as a competition chair, I wouldn't do it because it's just extra work for me.

Black Sheep

10-23-2008, 09:09 AM

The way I see it is that the II/III event has three - possibly four - skaters. If it is three, then it is you, me and Techskater because you both are II's now, right? I'm a III.

Also Stacy, and that's it.

slusher

10-23-2008, 09:35 AM

Don't you have to post skating orders at the start of the competition?

Clarice

10-23-2008, 09:38 AM

Don't you have to post skating orders at the start of the competition?

Yes, but you don't have to post the groups prior to the start of the competition. We never do, partly, I think, just because it's extra work, but also because there can be changes right up to the last minute. It's less confusing to wait until the start of the competition to post groups so there won't be so many revisions.

Skittl1321

10-23-2008, 09:43 AM

I can see why competitions wouldn't post them because things change quite a bit until the last minute, but I don't really see how it violates a skater's privacy. Afterall- most competitions post results on their websites, and most people like, if not expect, that- so how is it any different?

One reason to post- for larger, higher level, competitions- is to bring in more spectators. I'd be more likely to go to a competition if I knew someone I wanted to see was skating there.

Rusty Blades

10-23-2008, 11:12 AM

I sure like to know the grouping, and well ahead of time at that! Last year we actually made changes to my program based on the competition.

Stormy

10-23-2008, 11:39 AM

I sure like to know the grouping, and well ahead of time at that! Last year we actually made changes to my program based on the competition.

I've done that as well. I know it's supposed to be how you skate and all that, but who I like knowing who I'm skating with and might adjust my program accordingly.

blue111moon

10-23-2008, 01:30 PM

The only real reason to post groups before a competition is if there are many flights within each level and skaters might need to know ahead of time which group they're in in order to schedule practice or an arrival time.

While it's nice that some competitions may post skater lists ahead of time, there's nothing in the rules that requires them to do so.

Mel On Ice

10-23-2008, 01:36 PM

I'm 39, so aren't I a II? I just realized I'm in Bronze ladies III.

jazzpants

10-23-2008, 01:49 PM

WOW!!! Thanks for reminding me to check the schedule and skater's group for my upcoming competition coming up. (Skate San Francisco...)

I'm 39, so aren't I a II? I just realized I'm in Bronze ladies III.
You are a II, Mell!!! In fact...*sigh* I'm skating with the thirty-something young'ums in the Bronze II FS... and I'm a year older than you!!! :giveup: (Well, at the very least I'm get a Bronze medal... my technical is JUST SO NOT READY!!! :frus: ) Why? B/c they count your age in Skate SF according to the deadline for entry date (I was 40!) vs. the date of the actually competition (which would have made me 41... my b-day is 3 days before the competition.) So I'm really a Group III skater in a Group II event! :twisted:

But the thing that's even MORE 8O for me is a HUGE reminder that we're in tough economic times!!! This year's turnout for Skate San Francisco has dropped by an entire day!!!! (i.e. the number of days has dropped from 3.5 to 2.5 days!!!) Seems there's not that many skaters/events going this year. (What's the turnout for Halloween Classic compared to this year, just out of curiosity?)

I guess I shouldn't complain b/c I don't have to worry about taking time off from work to compete. (BOTH my events are on Sunday!) But I am kinda bummed there's not that much of a turnout this year.

sk8_mom

10-24-2008, 06:22 AM

jskater49

10-24-2008, 08:01 AM

I don't understand about the last minute changes thing - most of the competitions we attend have a printed program booklet for sale - seems to me changes are locked in by the time the program is printed.

And yes, it would be a bit of extra work for a volunteer to have to upload a few pdf's, (everything is digital these days anyways) but the competitors would really like to see at least the entries in each flight (start orders we can wait for). This is just good customer service, and I think some competition committees lose sight of who their customers are, and why they are coming.

We pay alot to enter each competition, and over the years know which ones provide good value and which ones don't. We stay away from ones that don't do things like provide entry lists on line (or quick results).

With skating's popularity not exactly at an all time high, shouldn't we be trying to do everything possible to make it a good experience for the customer (ie the skater and the parents)????

Well here's another point of view from someone who has been working her behind off to make it a good experience for the skaters.

We are going to lose a LOT of money on this competition, but we decided to take the hit and not cancel for the skate of the skaters who have been working hard for this competition. The reason you pay a lot of money for competitions is because the ice is expensive. The judges are all out of state and we have to reimburse them 58 cents a mile now.

Now when you sign up for a competition you can see yourself as a customer who has the right to demand a lot of service from the club and complain and threaten never to come back because we haven't everything to your satisfaction.

or you could see it as we are all in this skating thing together. We want to provide the skaters with opportunities to compete and test and so we all just do the best we can and we are forgiving and understanding. So maybe it would be nice if in the midst of my full time job and getting ready to have my college kids home and cook and enjoy some time with them, and trying to do everything else to get this competition ready, if I would stay up a couple hours later, give up a couple hours sleep so that you can have your group lists. But you know what? I'm just not going to do that. And if that's going to make you mad and feel like you aren't being treated right, well maybe it's just as well you dont' come back next year.

(a very grumpy Competition/Test chair two weeks before the competition)

Rusty Blades

10-24-2008, 08:18 AM

(a very grumpy Competition/Test chair two weeks before the competition)

.
.
.
.

HUG!!!

skaternum

10-24-2008, 08:30 AM

So maybe it would be nice if in the midst of my full time job and getting ready to have my college kids home and cook and enjoy some time with them, and trying to do everything else to get this competition ready, if I would stay up a couple hours later, give up a couple hours sleep so that you can have your group lists. But you know what? I'm just not going to do that. And if that's going to make you mad and feel like you aren't being treated right, well maybe it's just as well you dont' come back next year.
Word!:bow:

sk8_mom

10-24-2008, 09:24 AM

Now when you sign up for a competition you can see yourself as a customer who has the right to demand a lot of service from the club and complain and threaten never to come back because we haven't everything to your satisfaction.

or you could see it as we are all in this skating thing together. We want to provide the skaters with opportunities to compete and test and so we all just do the best we can and we are forgiving and understanding. So maybe it would be nice if in the midst of my full time job and getting ready to have my college kids home and cook and enjoy some time with them, and trying to do everything else to get this competition ready, if I would stay up a couple hours later, give up a couple hours sleep so that you can have your group lists. But you know what? I'm just not going to do that. And if that's going to make you mad and feel like you aren't being treated right, well maybe it's just as well you dont' come back next year.

(a very grumpy Competition/Test chair two weeks before the competition)
Hey I know this sport is run by volunteers. Our family is committed to skating and are in it together (and yes I volunteer at our club and at local competitions). But there are a lot of other sports out there for parents and kids to choose when they get fed up with the costs and service of skating.

So go ahead, complain about how overworked you are, cut corners, don't do everything you can to make this a good experience for the skaters (because you sure sound like you're trying to do it all yourself, you probably don't have enough people to help, no one will do anything, its all on your shoulders, right??????) And those entry lists - they would take someone less than 30 min to upload, probably more like 10 min. Learn to delegate.

Then when your competition loses money and entries are down, you can blame the parents who complain.....in the meantime people look at what their kids are getting out of skating and decide its not worth it and switch to hockey, or gymnastics, or soccer or something else where they don't feel like they are inconviencing the organizers of an event.....and when enough parents do this, your competition will lose even more money and skating in general suffers.

And absolutely, we ARE the customers. And the job of the organizers of the competition is to provide a good experience for the customers. If you don't do that, then what is the point??????

But if all those customers would just go away, then maybe you could get some work done....

Mrs Redboots

10-24-2008, 09:55 AM

So go ahead, complain about how overworked you are, cut corners, don't do everything you can to make this a good experience for the skaters (because you sure sound like you're trying to do it all yourself, you probably don't have enough people to help, no one will do anything, its all on your shoulders, right??????) And those entry lists - they would take someone less than 30 min to upload, probably more like 10 min. Learn to delegate.

Excuse me, but that's totally not true - my husband did it for our club competition last year and it took him every spare moment of our holiday (and those skaters who were at the Mountain Cup last year will confirm this), and all day on my birthday.

I suggest that, if you think you can run a competition better than those people who already give all their free time for weeks to do so, that you volunteer to do so. And I just hope that (a) your committee and (b) your national association give you a heck of a lot less grief than most people have.

In this country, a lot of competitions are no longer happening because it is simply too expensive and too difficult.

sk8_mom

10-24-2008, 10:24 AM

Excuse me, but that's totally not true - my husband did it for our club competition last year and it took him every spare moment of our holiday (and those skaters who were at the Mountain Cup last year will confirm this), and all day on my birthday.

I suggest that, if you think you can run a competition better than those people who already give all their free time for weeks to do so, that you volunteer to do so. And I just hope that (a) your committee and (b) your national association give you a heck of a lot less grief than most people have.

Uploading a pdf file is as simple as dragging and dropping from one folder to another. I have no idea why it would take your husband all day or what his problems are, but that should not be the case. Am I sorry it happened on your birthday? Absolutely. Am I fed up with writing a cheque for $130CAD and not even being able to get basic information like who is in what flight? You bet. Especially when some competitions can manage to do this without any problems year after year, and then other competitions just can't seem to get their act together.

And as I said, I do volunteer. I totally appreciate all the time everyone gives to make skating work, but that does not mean that it is ok to jump all over a parent or a skater who dares to complain. That just chases people away from the sport.

blue111moon

10-24-2008, 10:47 AM

[QUOTE=sk8_mom;377477] And those entry lists - they would take someone less than 30 min to upload, probably more like 10 min. Learn to delegate.QUOTE]

That would be fine if there were someone to gelegate TO.

The fact is, 10% of the people do 90% of the work - and the people who complain the most, do the least.

And frankly, with all the stuff that has to be done to run a competition, posting the group lists online is way far done on the list. Sure it's nice, but it's not necessary, and when there are a limited number of hands to get things done, it's the necessary things that come first. Posting the groups online isn't required. Period.

And in more than 20 years of running a competition where we don't post the groups online ahead of time, I've never had someone say they won't come back because we didn't. And if that's all it takes to keep you away from my club's competition, I'll say thank you, stay away.

Debbie S

10-24-2008, 12:32 PM

<off-topic moved to a new thread - Isk8NYC>

Back on topic, I have volunteered for my club's summer competition for 2 years, and while we do publish the lists of competitors, I certainly respect those that don't. Running a competition takes a tremendous amount of work, and as a competitor, I'm much more interested in whether the event runs smoothly and if the ice is in good shape (and the temp of the rink, lol) than knowing who is in my group beforehand. As someone said above, it's not who you compete against, but how you skate. And usually you can predict who will be in your group b/c you tend to see the same people over and over. If you've got a program that showcases what you can do best, then there's really nothing you can change about your approach anyway.

Isk8NYC

10-24-2008, 08:34 PM

The ISI has a software package that handles most of the details from registration to groupings, to scores/results as well as various reports and lists.

Does the USFSA have something similar that might make the process a little easier for the volunteers?

Isk8NYC

10-24-2008, 10:09 PM

Just a note: I've pulled the off-topic posts into a new thread in the proper forum.

CLICK FOR NEW THREAD (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=27472)
(That should be big enough, I think! ;) )

Please continue the signature and politics discussion there. Thank you.

Mrs Redboots

10-25-2008, 08:49 AM

Uploading a pdf file is as simple as dragging and dropping from one folder to another.

I think you'll find that with the "new, improved" skate scoring software we are now required to use, considerably more work is involved than just dragging and dropping, and all the skaters' names have to be entered on the judges' sheets individually, and then you find the wrong sheet has come up first....

Judges sheets, results sheets.... etc etc etc. Frankly, the task is never-ending, and when you have to get your head round new, "improved" software into the bargain (which doesn't work nearly as well as the old stuff did!)....

Well, if you'd like to run a competition, please feel free.

Also, I don't know what ice costs where you live, but here, it's got to the point that unless you hold your competition during club ice, you simply can't afford it, not without an entry fee that's going to make too many skaters, or their parents, wince and say, "Thanks, but not this time!" And judges' expenses have just doubled (admittedly to something that is now about 1/4 way to covering what they actually spend, but even so, it means another £1.00 or so on the entry fee.... ) and, of course, the judges that live within walking-distance of the rink are busy that day.... and so it goes.

slusher

10-25-2008, 11:04 AM

I ran a club competition once for no-test kids. Once. When I posted the groups the week before I got such flack from parents about why their little Suzie had to skate against Sally. The groups were made up with the help of all coaches but I took the flack for it. The problem being, if there were 12 kids, we made four flights of three and simply separated the kids into what we though were the best groups, the bottom three in one group etc. That way, everyone was going to win a medal. We could have run two flights of six. Nope everyone wanted to be winning their group and if the top three girls were always dominated by Sally, well then it sucked to be in her group so no one wanted to.

However, that was close and personal and in a club setting. For big competitions, from friends of mine who work as organizers, it's a thankless job. Yes they could put out skater lists 30 days ahead of time but literally they are making changes up to the morning of the draw and during the competition. It comes down to skaters and coaches not filling out forms properly. Suzie passed a test and therefore needs to skate up, Sally's coach didn't realize that pre-pre didn't allow doubles anymore so has to move her and Sharon's mom bounced her cheque so they've left her off the list for now. And there's always one where Alex gets listed as a boy although she's a girl because the parents didn't tick off the little box that says male/female. And every change has to be approved by the chief referee, who never seems to complain, they're absolute pros at their volunteer job.

Isk8NYC

10-25-2008, 03:44 PM

IAnd there's always one where Alex gets listed as a boy although she's a girl because the parents didn't tick off the little box that says male/female. Too funny! (And I'm sure it's true.)

It's a lot of work to organize and put together things in advance. I've found with big volunteer projects that you get better at dividing the job into small pieces as you get experience.

Years ago, I belonged to a Club that had a "review session" with all their volunteers about a week after each event. (test session, show, competition, etc.) They would meet at someone's house for coffee & cake during the week and talk about what worked and what needed to change.

To this day, I use the question "Who would be good to do (some function)?"
By next year, you won't remember who pitched in this year and there are always people who just show up and help. We had one mom at our skating show a few years ago who had a nice way of keeping the groups together while they waited, freeing up the instructor. She does it every year now with pride!

But, it's not just Moms who can help out. A college-age sister pitched in by doing "bathroom runs" with 2 or 3 girls at a time, always returning them to the right place. The Dr. Dad who handled first aid better than anyone else KNEW if a kid was just nervous or was really hurt. The granny who can coax the deli into donating fruit snacks and water bottles for the judges' room, or make up a pot of minestrone soup to keep people warm.

The other half is ASKING those people to do it again the next year. By then, this year's event will be a distant memory. Make a list of names, add their phone numbers NOW and pull it out next year. A few phone calls can really help.

On another note, I am more than computer literate. If any of you competition directors get stuck on something computer-related, feel free to PM me for help.

Mrs Redboots

10-26-2008, 09:18 AM

Yes they could put out skater lists 30 days ahead of time You mean, your governing body gives formal sanction that far ahead? Ours doesn't.... takes them until the very last minute to check that everybody is a member in good and regular standing, and that their coaches are ditto, and that nobody's subscription has expired.... last competition I was at, the organiser was tearing her hair out as there were about three days to go and she had still heard nothing! And she really, really didn't want to have to tell someone on the day that they couldn't skate as their membership had lapsed.... (so Husband had to very quickly renew his!).

jenlyon60

10-26-2008, 12:05 PM

slusher

10-26-2008, 06:35 PM

The sections sanctions all the competitions for the upcoming year usually in the summer. It's hard to get judges so there's a sharing system as to what region gets a competition (and sanction) so it's done almost a year in advance. But generally, 90% of the entries are in about 30 days beforehand.

jenlyon60

10-27-2008, 04:43 AM

Definitely, 90% of the applications are mailed right at the deadline. Some that are "mailed at the deadline" somehow seem to show up a week later. Then there's the coaches who call and ask for last minute changes all during the time that the chief ref is trying to build a schedule. Then there's the changes that the chief ref may ask the comp chair to work with skaters/coaches on, because there's only 1 skater in an event or such.

And by the last week before the event, the competition was almost a full-time job.

jskater49

10-28-2008, 09:23 AM

[And by the last week before the event, the competition was almost a full-time job.[/QUOTE]

No kidding. And for those who keep wanting to say how much you are paying...well you aren't paying ME. You are paying for the judges expenses (not even THEIR time) and the ice.

What's going to happen is that fewer and fewer clubs are going to offer fun, non qualifying events because it's too expensive and not worth the hassle, certainly not worth being treated like an employee or servant.

j

TiggerTooSkates

10-28-2008, 09:44 PM

And by the last week before the event, the competition was almost a full-time job.

What's going to happen is that fewer and fewer clubs are going to offer fun, non qualifying events because it's too expensive and not worth the hassle, certainly not worth being treated like an employee or servant.

This attitude seems to be everywhere these days - I'd love to know where it's coming from. I see it on my unit at the hospital every day - and it burns me up. I admire ANYONE who puts up with this VOLUNTARILY (at least I get paid) to organize skating events. I would love to volunteer - but every time something's come up lately at my rink, I'm working!

HUGS and HATS OFF to those of you who take either your own love or your child's love (and the love of that child, too!) and volunteer to make all of these events happen.

Just a comment. 8-)

rlichtefeld

10-31-2008, 08:26 AM

Uploading a pdf file is as simple as dragging and dropping from one folder to another. I have no idea why it would take your husband all day or what his problems are, but that should not be the case. Am I sorry it happened on your birthday? Absolutely. Am I fed up with writing a cheque for $130CAD and not even being able to get basic information like who is in what flight? You bet. Especially when some competitions can manage to do this without any problems year after year, and then other competitions just can't seem to get their act together.

And as I said, I do volunteer. I totally appreciate all the time everyone gives to make skating work, but that does not mean that it is ok to jump all over a parent or a skater who dares to complain. That just chases people away from the sport.

Yes, with the right software, that you have to purchase, uploading a pdf file is pretty easy. As long as you have also purchased the pdf creation software.

However, the Accountant is the one who creates the group list and the start order which is also the groupings for the flights. And, the committee is not always given this info until the Accountant arrives at the event. So, the committee can post the listing of the skaters in each event (and we do), but the actual flights and start order have to wait for the Accountant.

Rob
Chair - Peach Open and Peach Classic - 2000-2008

rlichtefeld

10-31-2008, 08:30 AM

We're not even allowed to post the announcement/application for a competition (standard track, not Basic Skills) until we've received our sanction from USFS. Any info posted before that time must clearly state "PENDING SANCTION".

Since the Peach Open and Peach Classic are held Labor Day weekend, and the rules changes put in place by the USFS Governing Council are passed in May, and take effect Sept 1, we have to wait until Governing Council is over to make changes to our sanction application to submit it to the Regional Vice Chair.

Then, it takes some time for us to get it back. Which is why our app and info comes out so late. But, that is what we have to do. And, officially we can't advertise in another comp's program or even have anything other than a date on the website.

Rob
Chair - Peach Open and Peach Classic - 2000-2008

Rusty Blades

10-31-2008, 08:46 PM

I to work a full time job, keep a house on my own, and skate, so I take a day off here and there to help at local test days and it just seems to floor some of the coaches that I actually take a day off to volunteer. And tomorrow I take an all day clinic to become a Data Specialist so I guess that will be another job behind the scenes. I do what I can when I can because I appreciate the efforts others put in when I can't.

Swizzler

11-01-2008, 04:25 PM

Skittl1321

11-01-2008, 05:23 PM

Speaking of competitors' lists (we were, right?), it really bugs me that in many ISI competitions they will post the ages of the adult competitors. That, to me, is a real violation of privacy, even if it is just in a group e.g. "Adults 31 - 39" or whatever. Not that I lie about my age or anything :roll:, but some things are best kept private.

Don't USFS competitions essentially do the same thing? Not post actual age, but you definetly know what the decade is. I is 21-30, II is 31-40, V is 61+.