Age and knees :(

[Rusty Blades]

After two and a half years of skating and struggling so much, I really started to progress in August and backwards has become WAY stronger, so much so that my coach commented last week that my skating is noticeably more "aggressive".

As a 59 year old adult competitor, that's wonderful! BUT the last couple of weeks my knees have been really bothering me. I know I am getting way more 'down in the knees' than I used to and I think that is what is bothering them.

I am off to see my physiotherapist this afternoon but I was wondering, particularly from my fellow over-the-hill skaters, if there is anything you do off-ice to help your knees?

I would go NUTS if I had to quit skating!

[Bill_S]

Dear fellow knee sufferer,

I've been troubled recently by some knee pain in my left knee, and was about to mention it somewhere on the board. You beat me to it.

My knee was hurting like crazy after this morning's session. I took another Aleve to help the pain before I went to work.

I've been "blessed" with my mother's squarish joints that invite osteo arthritis. I have some toe joints that are completely useless. Five years ago the doctors wanted to replace them. I keep "forgetting" to go for the expensive surgery. Thankfully they aren't weight bearing joints, and skating doesn't require any toe joint flexing.

It makes me realize that if the arthritis becomes as severe at the knee as it is in my toes, I can kiss skating goodbye. Walking too. I remember meeting my uncle at an airport, and he could barely make it down the exit stairs from the plane, wincing in pain all the way.

It's what I've been dreading, but I'm afraid it might be the beginning of the end of skating for me.

How's that for a cheery reply?

If your own pain is tendon related, then I expect you should be OK with regular exercise and ice treatments combined with rest. Oh, yes, and an anti-inflammatory like Aleve, etc.

[fsk8r]

OK, I really don't want to be described as over-the-hill just yet (I'm still a spritely 30!) but I smashed my knee in a car accident a few years ago, so I kinda think the knee might have another 20 years on the rest of me. I find that every now and then, when I push the poor knee too much (been trying sit spins a bit too much lately) that I need to go back and actually do some balance exercises (as in stand on one leg, with eyes shut) to help strengthen the muscles around the knee. Squats are also meant to be good, but given that you've pushed the bending too much I'd try some balance work.
I also try and take cod liver oil as that's meant to help the flexibility and ward off arthritis (and given that breaks are meant to be precursors and I've got a family history, I'm not taking any risks). I'm not sure I really notice a difference when I stop taking the cod liver oil, as that generally only happens when I'm away from a rink, but I'm not inclined to stop to test the theory.

[fsk8r]

Dear fellow knee sufferer,

I've been troubled recently by some knee pain in my left knee, and was about to mention it somewhere on the board. You beat me to it.

My knee was hurting like crazy after this morning's session. I took another Aleve to help the pain before I went to work.

I've been "blessed" with my mother's squarish joints that invite osteo arthritis. I have some toe joints that are completely useless. Five years ago the doctors wanted to replace them. I keep "forgetting" to go for the expensive surgery. Thankfully they aren't weight bearing joints, and skating doesn't require any toe joint flexing.

It makes me realize that if the arthritis becomes as severe at the knee as it is in my toes, I can kiss skating goodbye. Walking too. I remember meeting my uncle at an airport, and he could barely make it down the exit stairs from the plane, wincing in pain all the way.

It's what I've been dreading, but I'm afraid it might be the beginning of the end of skating for me.

How's that for a cheery reply?

If your own pain is tendon related, then I expect you should be OK with regular exercise and ice treatments combined with rest. Oh, yes, and an anti-inflammatory like Aleve, etc.

I think they're recommending exercise these days for arthritis. I ready a recent newspaper article which showed that patients who performed exercises every day were better off than patients who had knee replacements. It was in the Daily Telegraph (UK paper) in the last month, so you might find it interesting to read.
And I'm swearing by cod liver oil because my grandmother has been on it for years and her arthritis hasn't got bad enough for a replacement joint yet and she's 93! (Admittedly she doesn't skate, but at 93 I don't think she's about to start).

[Rusty Blades]

It's what I've been dreading, but I'm afraid it might be the beginning of the end of skating for me.

Aren't you just a little ray of @%#$% sunshine Bill! :twisted:

It was smashing my knees into the boards 40 years ago that took me out of skating at 19. When I decided to 'make a come-back' I had this subconscious fear "I wonder how far my knees will let me go?" I have EVERYTHING crossed that THIS isn't the limit! I at least want my 3 jumps and to continue in Bronze Free competition for a few more years!

[Bill_S]

Aren't you just a little ray of @%#$% sunshine Bill! :twisted:



You caught that, eh? ;)

I also remember banging up my left knee ice skating. I went down on cobbly, melted/re-frozen pond ice and smacked one of the upraised cobbles with my knee. That part of my knee has always had a bumpy growth on the bone. It probably hasn't helped my situation.

In the future if my arthritis gets worse, I'll have to call my artistic program my "arthritic" program. :twisted:

Continuing to exercise with arthritis: while I'm only 58 years old, I do skate with considerably older folks at the roller rink. There are a number of them with replacement joints - knees, hips, etc. They keep on going - just a bit slower though. Exercise helps them remain forever young and funloving.

[sk8lady]

My husband takes Aleve and I take two Advil.

And a nice glass of wine at night makes the whole knee thing a lot less annoying.

[doubletoe]

Here's a recent thread on knee problems and solutions:

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=27192

In fact, that thread served as a good reminder for me to start doing my hamstring exercises again before my knee problems return. A week ago, I re-joined my old gym and am making myself do those hamstring curls and hamstring stabilizing exercises like I should have been doing all along. :roll:

[Rusty Blades]

RELIEF! My physiotherapist figures the knee pain is the kneecap grating on the tibula because my quadriceps are just beginning to develop to maintain the squat position, that plus a little tendinitis where the quadriceps pass over the kneecap. She said that it will probably take about 6 weeks to build up the quadriceps and I wont have any more discomfort. That’s good news - the knees are fine! :) She instructed me to ice them after practice and do some squat exercises.

Bill: Yes, I caught that!

[doubletoe]

RELIEF! My physiotherapist figures the knee pain is the kneecap grating on the tibula because my quadriceps are just beginning to develop to maintain the squat position, that plus a little tendinitis where the quadriceps pass over the kneecap. She said that it will probably take about 6 weeks to build up the quadriceps and I wont have any more discomfort. That’s good news - the knees are fine! :) She instructed me to ice them after practice and do some squat exercises.

Bill: Yes, I caught that!

In that case, you should definitely discuss hamstring exercises with your PT as well. Skating builds the quads (especially outer quads) but not the hamstrings. As a result, the quads pull harder on the knee joint and pull unevenly on the kneecap, causing misalignment and pain. The first PT I had was not a skater and didn't realize how little we use our hamstrings, so she had me doing quad exercises. My knees actually got worse from that, so I switched to a PT who was also a skater. The first thing she did was to measure my relative quad vs. hamstring strength, confirm that my hamstrings were too weak for my quads, and immediately stop the quad exercises. Instead, she gave me hamstring exercises and my knee started feeling better almost immediately. I'm not saying your quads *don't* need exercises, but you need to make sure the hamstrings get built up to stay in balance with them. Daisies just got diagnosed with the same problem and her knee is also already feeling better after just a week or two of hamstring exercises and stretches!

[ibreakhearts66]

I'm only 18, but my body certainly doesn't believe me.

Given what your physio has said, I would also work on building up the inner part of your quads. As doubletoe said, skating does a lot of work on the outer part, but not much for the inner. What you really want is those muscle you see on soccer players on the inside of the knee (http://sportsvideos.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/cristiano-ronaldo-3.jpg). Obviously it doesn't have to be quite so defined, but it will help keep your kneecap tracking properly.

Ask your physio for exercises, as I'm not sure what would be good for the muscle and knee friendly. I always found one-legged leg presses to be good as well as that machine that can be used for hamstring curls if you lie on your stomach and quad workouts when you sit straight up. You know, you sit upright with your knees bent and then straighten them against resistance? Those are good for working that muscle, but I fear they might be kind of harsh on a knee that's not tracking properly.

[AgnesNitt]

I had serious knee problems for years (horseback riding accident). It was so bad I couldn't even get up from the kneeler at mass without using arm leverage and a prayer. Then about two years ago my Jazzercise center started offering Personal Touch weight training which I've been doing twice a week. . The training really works around your whole body so that you don't end up over emphasizing one set of muscles ( this seems to happen with machine exercises). I'm now about a thousand per cent better as I've stengthened muscles throughout my legs and built up my abs. So serious long term moderate exercise can help.
Losing 50 pounds wouldn't hurt either. But that lies in dreamland probably.
Oh, yeah, nearly 60, skating 18 mos.

[Mrs Redboots]

I think they're recommending exercise these days for arthritis. I ready a recent newspaper article which showed that patients who performed exercises every day were better off than patients who had knee replacements. It was in the Daily Telegraph (UK paper) in the last month, so you might find it interesting to read.

My first coach told of an adult skater she'd taken years earlier, who'd been prescribed skating by his doctor (shades of Harriet in White Boots) as he was developing arthritis. As he progressed in skating, he was able to discard his walking-stick, and move freely. But then he had to give up for some reason, and within a month he was in a wheelchair!

And I'm swearing by cod liver oil because my grandmother has been on it for years and her arthritis hasn't got bad enough for a replacement joint yet and she's 93! (Admittedly she doesn't skate, but at 93 I don't think she's about to start).

Two words: Glucosamine Sulphate. My cousin, a GP, says it helps four out of five people who take it, but you have to take enough. We (Husband and self) who are not (yet) (diagnosed) arthritic take 1000 mg a day; my parents, who do have arthritis, take twice that. And we all notice when we don't take it!

[katz in boots]

Hi Rusty, glad to hear you have a positive diagnosis, but something that has been bothering me...

I know you have Proflex boots, as do I. Perhaps it is bad luck or 'co-incidence', but I have had a lot more problems with my knees since I started skating in these boots. While I like the extra freedom at the ankle, I do wonder whether the extra bend puts more pressure on the knees, particularly for adult skaters.

Just wondering....

[tidesong]

This is where I got so confused. Skating is supposed to build the quads up, but my hamstrings are alot, alot stronger than my quads (although yes my outer quads are also stronger than my inner quads).
Accordingly, back then my physio recommended quad exercises which I should be doing more than I actually do.

But it seems apart from just working the quads specially, I went running and I could feel my quads working and well after that my knees feel better. I don't know what to make of all this except that by logic if quads are so easy to build up then I should a-ok in no time... we'll see.

[Rusty Blades]

When I switched from conventional boots to the Proflex I immediately became aware of how accustomed I had become to riding against the tongue or the cuff of the boot in many circumstances - when I watch other (high level) skaters I see they do the same thing. Of course you can't do that in Proflex - your muscles have to support your full weight. It took a couple of weeks to build those muscles and now I don't even notice it.

Two weeks ago I had Elizabeth Manley coaching me for one session and she immediately said I was skating too upright and stiff, to get down in the knees, which immediately made a big improvement in my skating but within a few days of skating 'down in the knees' my knees were very sore. My therapist was correct though; I have continued skating with more knee-bend and 'soft knees' and already I am getting stronger in the quads and have much less discomfort in the knees. I think the quads are just a muscle group that aren't used to carrying one's full body weight in normal circumstances.

[RachelSk8er]

The quad/hamistring imbalance issue is a big problem among skaters (and many other athletes, too)...I'm *only* 27 but have had knee problems due to this for about 10 yrs now. Right now I'm working with a personal trainer to balance out muscle groups (aside from hamstrings/quads, I also have some core/back imbalance that causes some back pain). Some of the exercises he's doing have really been helping, although the day after I work with him, man am I SORE!! (In a good way though).

[Skittl1321]

Well for those that think the body falling apart is an "age" thing, I challenge them to talk to my doctor :) I'm only 26 and you'd be hard pressed to find a part of my body that doesn't have tendonitis, nerve damage, a previous break, or some other problem.

On topic:

In addition to the quad/hamstring imbalance, something else that can cause knee problems is an inner/outer quad imbalance. That was my problem and it had me off the ice for 12 weeks. (Original quote- 4 weeks- haha). My inner quad was practically non-existant, and the outer quad was messing up the tracking in my knee. Add patellar tendonitis to the mix, and even walking was painful.

Now it's almost gone. I actually have more problems with my desk job then with skating (if I stay away from things like power pulls that require a ton of up/down in the knees), but if my knees hurt from work (no opportunity to get up and stretch them out) then I know I'm in for a rough night.

My NP recommended Glucosamin with Chondroitin- but she's into all kinds of vitamins and supplements and stuff, so I'm wondering if it will actually help? It's a bit expensive, and she says it takes time before it starts working. Anyone have experience with that?

[Bill_S]

My NP recommended Glucosamin with Chondroitin- but she's into all kinds of vitamins and supplements and stuff, so I'm wondering if it will actually help? It's a bit expensive, and she says it takes time before it starts working. Anyone have experience with that?



Different people have different responses to the question about the effectiveness of Glucosamin with Chondroitin. When I was diagnosed with arthritis in my toes in 2001, I went into denial. I bought books that promised help, and most of them promoted Glucosamin.

For about two years I took hefty doses of it thinking it might help. It made no difference to me. Aleve (an anti-inflamatory) worked best, although it might have treated only the symptoms.

I quit taking Glucosamin after two years because I couldn't tell any difference with my existing arthritis. Other people have a very different tale to tell.

The medical research record about its effectiveness reaches no real conclusion either.

It's worth a try to see if it will work for you. Maybe you'll be one of the lucky ones.

Edit: Consumer Reports tested various brands of Glucosamin w/ Chrondroitin and found that the actual amount of ingredients in a tablet was often mis-represented. They favorably cited Puritan's Pride, a mail-order and online supplier, as a vendor that included the advertised quantities of ingredients. It was also cheaper too, especially when they ran their 3 for the price of 2 sales. You can Google them if you wish.

[Mrs Redboots]

It's well worth trying. My cousin, a doctor, has done some research, and he says that Glucosamine with Chondroitin doesn't do much, you might as well buy plain Glucosamine Sulphate. It helps about 4 people out of 5, but you have to take enough - at least 1,000 mg per day, if not double that amount.

I find I really notice if I don't take it for a week or so, as do my parents.

Obviously if one's knees are actively painful, an o-t-c painkiller will provide symptomatic relief, but the glucosamine helps, I find, keep the worst at bay.

[skaternum]

And a nice glass of wine at night makes the whole knee thing a lot less annoying.
:lol: It's posts like these that make me wish we could award rep points on this board!!

[skaternum]

I'm 43, and I've had 5 surgeries on my landing knee already. (4 scopes + 1 horribly nasty, old school, split-wide-open implant w/ osteotomy) I agree completely about the importance of a good quad to hamstring ratio. Until your muscles get strong enough, ice as soon after skating as possible.

I hope this will do it for you. Skating with knee problems is the pits!

[doubletoe]

I've read recent studies that say Glucosamine with MSM has been shown to be more effective than Glucosamine alone, but they don't mention Chondroitin. Unfortunately, Glucosamine didn't seem to do anything for me, but I have friends for whom it worked miracles, so it's worth a try for sure! Oh, ibuprofen does work for me, as does that glass of wine (at least in the short term), LOL!

[Isk8NYC]

The glucosamine, chondroitin, and MSM combination supplement pills make me horribly sick with stomach cramps.
It took me a day or two before I realized I wasn't really sick, the pills didn't agree with me.

Now, I use the liquid formula, but the drink itself is too sweet - like oversweetened Kool-Aid. I mix it half-and-half with unsweetened real juice, so it's more palatable.

I use Elations but there are other brands, like Joint Juice.

It's made my knees and ankles less "crunchy" and painful.

I also wear ski pants when it's really cold. Keeping my knees warm really helps as well.

[Morgail]

I've heard good things about Glucosamine with Chrondriton (which I'm sure I spelled wrong), but I haven't tried it myself.

I sympathize with the knee pain. I'm only 29, but my knees have loved to dislocate at random times ever since I was a kid. They crunch and crackle and make me sound like I'm 90 every time I go up stairs or squat. And they hurt when I work too long on dance (when I'm really thinking about being down in the knees) or on sit spins. Whenever they hurt, I do the exercises I got from my physical therapist the last time I dislocated a knee: shallow squats against the wall (with an exercise ball if you have one), leg raises in all directions, and working with a theraband. And I lay off the deep-knee work in skating for a bit.

[sk8pics]

I had some knee problems as a teenager as a result of a judo injury, but as long as I am diligent about doing leg curls and leg extensions, so all the relevant muscle groups stay strong, I have no problems.

Just a comment about painkillers. A friend of mine, about 51 years old, just had her knee replaced recently. She's had a really rough time of it. She was always very active and a runner. And she'd been having pain for quite some time and taking a lot of ibuprofen. So the ibuprofen masked some of the pain and so she could run more or whatever, and that caused even more damage to her knee. The doc has forbidden her to ever take it again, because she needs to know when it hurts so she can take appropriate action. BTW, her doc is in the same group as my orthopedic surgeon and they're a sports medicine group, and very focused on getting people back to their prior activities.

[doubletoe]

I had some knee problems as a teenager as a result of a judo injury, but as long as I am diligent about doing leg curls and leg extensions, so all the relevant muscle groups stay strong, I have no problems.

Just a comment about painkillers. A friend of mine, about 51 years old, just had her knee replaced recently. She's had a really rough time of it. She was always very active and a runner. And she'd been having pain for quite some time and taking a lot of ibuprofen. So the ibuprofen masked some of the pain and so she could run more or whatever, and that caused even more damage to her knee. The doc has forbidden her to ever take it again, because she needs to know when it hurts so she can take appropriate action. BTW, her doc is in the same group as my orthopedic surgeon and they're a sports medicine group, and very focused on getting people back to their prior activities.

ITA that people should not dose up on painkillers instead of treating the problem. However, ibuprofen and aspirin are not just analgesics (painkillers); they are actually anti-inflammatories, and inflammation should be kept down for lots of reasons. Taking an ibuprofen in *addition* to resting the knee (or whatever area is bothering you) can help nip it in the bud, as can icing.

[sk8pics]

ITA that people should not dose up on painkillers instead of treating the problem. However, ibuprofen and aspirin are not just analgesics (painkillers); they are actually anti-inflammatories, and inflammation should be kept down for lots of reasons. Taking an ibuprofen in *addition* to resting the knee (or whatever area is bothering you) can help nip it in the bud, as can icing.

True, but my orthopedist had told me that you need to be in the 600 mg range for true anti-inflammatory activity, and the normal OTC dose is only 400 mg. I think my point (and my friend's doc) is that you should seek the advice of your doctor if you're having to take relatively a lot of painkillers, and not just assume you can treat yourself forever when something is obviously wrong.

[black]

*Puts hand up* Another Cod liver oil user here. Only 27, but been physically active most of my life plus use a keyboard a lot. I take a spoonful everyday before breakfast and I swear it helps.

[doubletoe]

True, but my orthopedist had told me that you need to be in the 600 mg range for true anti-inflammatory activity, and the normal OTC dose is only 400 mg. I think my point (and my friend's doc) is that you should seek the advice of your doctor if you're having to take relatively a lot of painkillers, and not just assume you can treat yourself forever when something is obviously wrong.

I definitely wouldn't argue with that. :bow: