Coaching Question

[isakswings]

My daughter's coach and I have talked about who we would choose as a secondary coach, should dd's coach not be available for a lesson. Dd's coach is a senior in college this year and while she is planning on being available, there might be times when dd's coach is not available on a day we can take a lesson. I'm not sure how often this would happen, but I have been thinking about talking to dd's coach again to see how she would feel about dd having a couple of lessons with that coach so I could see how they(dd and the other coach) work together. I'd also like dd to feel comfortable with the other coach should we need to have some lessons with her. What do you think? Is this a good idea or not? Oh and as a side note, this coach is dd's coach's coach and has taken some of her(dd's coach) students before when she was unable to take them. Feedback?

[Pgh.Coach]

A bit of advice on "team coaching," which is what it sounds like you're considering.

Be open and honest with both coaches, current and any prospective coaches, about your expectations. Discuss additional lesson time/days, payment methods, etc. Never go behind any coach's back.

Make sure your current or head coach knows you are not trying to replace him/her and that the prospective coach is aware that he/she is responsible for focusing on certain disciplines (dance, MIF, freestyle), for instance. From what you've stated, this doesn't seem to be the case, but taking on additional coaches can sometimes lead to issues when the head coach feels that his/her boundaries and responsibilities are being overstepped. This is why it's important for any coaches working together with skaters have a good relationship on and off the ice.

Check the qualifications of any coach you may take on. This can be as simple as making certain that he/she is actually capable of teaching a particular level, something you need to be wary of as your daughter reaches a higher skating level.

And, as always, OK it with both coaches before making any changes, for ethical purposes and out of sheer courtesy.

Of course, there are pros and cons to team coaching that need to be considered.

On one hand, additional coaches are sometimes able to communicate in various ways to best help a skater reach his/her potential and taking different approaches to a skater's ability, strengths, and weaknesses and adapting technique to best suit different learning styles.

When it comes to time constraints, which I see is starting to become an issue for yourself, additional coaches can offer extra lesson time if they're schedules allow.

You have to be careful though in who you and your head coach decide to work with. I've seen instances where team coaching has failed because the secondary coach has bashed the head coach by telling a skater what he/she had been taught by the head coach was "wrong." While there are several approaches to coaching and endless outlets for learning, having readically conflicting teaching techniques or blatantly telling a skater that he/she was taught incorrectly can confuse the skater. Not to mention how highly unethical this practice is.

Also, watch not only who, but how many coaches you take on. There are some skaters at my rink who have 4 or 5 coaches: one primary (usually freestyle), another freestyle coach, a dance/moves coach, sometimes synchro for those who desire to enhance their synchro skills outside of team practices, and a dance partner who occasionally works with them before tests. To me, team coaching is a lot like that saying "Too many cooks spoil the broth." Although its not always the case--and I have yet to run into this issue--sometimes having too many coaches can be confusing for the skater, especially if the coaches have drastically different ways of teaching or personality conflicts arise between the coach(es) and skater.

Stil, if a skater and all coaches participating in a team coaching atmosphere have open communication and generally the same style of teaching (or rather teach the same techniques despite their coaching style, for instance), team coaching can be very beneficial to a skater.

In fact, I actually participate in team coaching where I am the head coach teaching all levels of MIF, freestyle, and some dance. Two of my students also work with two other coaches, one for freestyle (at 25 minutes/week each) and another for dance (30 minutes/week each). I teach these students regularly 1 hour/week doing whatever discipline I feel they need work on, be it dance, freestyle, or MIF. Basically, the other two coaches are "fill-ins" that give my skaters some extra time that I'm not able to. As one of their secondary coaches was my dance coach, we feel comfortable communicating with one another.

I highly recommend that your daughter take a few trial lessons with the secondary coach. Tell the secondary coach upfront that your daughter would like to do say, three weeks of lessons, on a trial basis. Any coach (granted he/she has the time) should understand your concern and be willing to comply with a few trial lessons. You wouldn't buy a car without test driving; what's so different about coaching, especially considering the amount of money you pay and the relationship your skater will form with this individual.

Surely your coach will have some input on who she recommends, but ultimately the decision is between you and your daughter and what's best for her skating goals, what you can afford, etc.

[isakswings]

A bit of advice on "team coaching," which is what it sounds like you're considering.

Be open and honest with both coaches, current and any prospective coaches, about your expectations. Discuss additional lesson time/days, payment methods, etc. Never go behind any coach's back.

Make sure your current or head coach knows you are not trying to replace him/her and that the prospective coach is aware that he/she is responsible for focusing on certain disciplines (dance, MIF, freestyle), for instance. From what you've stated, this doesn't seem to be the case, but taking on additional coaches can sometimes lead to issues when the head coach feels that his/her boundaries and responsibilities are being overstepped. This is why it's important for any coaches working together with skaters have a good relationship on and off the ice.

Check the qualifications of any coach you may take on. This can be as simple as making certain that he/she is actually capable of teaching a particular level, something you need to be wary of as your daughter reaches a higher skating level.

And, as always, OK it with both coaches before making any changes, for ethical purposes and out of sheer courtesy.

Of course, there are pros and cons to team coaching that need to be considered.

On one hand, additional coaches are sometimes able to communicate in various ways to best help a skater reach his/her potential and taking different approaches to a skater's ability, strengths, and weaknesses and adapting technique to best suit different learning styles.

When it comes to time constraints, which I see is starting to become an issue for yourself, additional coaches can offer extra lesson time if they're schedules allow.

You have to be careful though in who you and your head coach decide to work with. I've seen instances where team coaching has failed because the secondary coach has bashed the head coach by telling a skater what he/she had been taught by the head coach was "wrong." While there are several approaches to coaching and endless outlets for learning, having readically conflicting teaching techniques or blatantly telling a skater that he/she was taught incorrectly can confuse the skater. Not to mention how highly unethical this practice is.

Also, watch not only who, but how many coaches you take on. There are some skaters at my rink who have 4 or 5 coaches: one primary (usually freestyle), another freestyle coach, a dance/moves coach, sometimes synchro for those who desire to enhance their synchro skills outside of team practices, and a dance partner who occasionally works with them before tests. To me, team coaching is a lot like that saying "Too many cooks spoil the broth." Although its not always the case--and I have yet to run into this issue--sometimes having too many coaches can be confusing for the skater, especially if the coaches have drastically different ways of teaching or personality conflicts arise between the coach(es) and skater.

Stil, if a skater and all coaches participating in a team coaching atmosphere have open communication and generally the same style of teaching (or rather teach the same techniques despite their coaching style, for instance), team coaching can be very beneficial to a skater.

In fact, I actually participate in team coaching where I am the head coach teaching all levels of MIF, freestyle, and some dance. Two of my students also work with two other coaches, one for freestyle (at 25 minutes/week each) and another for dance (30 minutes/week each). I teach these students regularly 1 hour/week doing whatever discipline I feel they need work on, be it dance, freestyle, or MIF. Basically, the other two coaches are "fill-ins" that give my skaters some extra time that I'm not able to. As one of their secondary coaches was my dance coach, we feel comfortable communicating with one another.

I highly recommend that your daughter take a few trial lessons with the secondary coach. Tell the secondary coach upfront that your daughter would like to do say, three weeks of lessons, on a trial basis. Any coach (granted he/she has the time) should understand your concern and be willing to comply with a few trial lessons. You wouldn't buy a car without test driving; what's so different about coaching, especially considering the amount of money you pay and the relationship your skater will form with this individual.

Surely your coach will have some input on who she recommends, but ultimately the decision is between you and your daughter and what's best for her skating goals, what you can afford, etc.

Thank you! The secondary coach is actually my dd's coach, coach. They still have a good working relationship, so I feel quite confident that dd's coach would be fine with her coach being my dd's secondary coach. When I talked to dd's coach about this idea, her coach was one of the coaches she mentioned she would be comfortable working with dd.

Here is another ethical question. The secondary coach, coaches at a different rink from where dd usually skates at. She belongs to a different club too. Dd's coach belongs to both clubs. Is there any ethical issue with using a different coach from a different club?

[Pgh.Coach]

Here is another ethical question. The secondary coach, coaches at a different rink from where dd usually skates at. She belongs to a different club too. Dd's coach belongs to both clubs. Is there any ethical issue with using a different coach from a different club?

Not that I'm aware of. Your daughter's coach is fine with that, so I'm sure there's no issue there.

Most ethical issue regarding coaching stem from:
- financial obligations not being met
- unrealistic expectations about what a coach can do for a skater
- soliciting

I'm going to give you a link to the Professional Skater's Association (PSA) Parent Information site, which can probably answer a lot of your questions: http://www.skatepsa.com/Parent-Information-PSA.htm

[isakswings]

I'm going to give you a link to the Professional Skater's Association (PSA) Parent Information site, which can probably answer a lot of your questions: http://www.skatepsa.com/Parent-Information-PSA.htm

Thanks! :-)

[sk8lady]

I was always skeptical about team coaching until I started participating in it, both as a coach and as a student.
As a coach, I have one adult student whose freestyle level exceeds her MIF level substantially. I can coach her for MIF and spins, but have her working with someone else for jumps. She should really be taking with a more advanced coach but is not able to travel for lessons and no other local coach is available. I've had her work with another coach who is around occasionally on jumps which was a great help.

As a skater, my own coach had limited availability last year so I started working with another coach to fill in when I missed lessons. The additional pair of eyes, and different method of teaching, have been incredibly helpful and I've made substantially more progress than I have in a long time.

I can see where it might be confusing to a child to have two different methods suggested but it works great for me!

[isakswings]

I was always skeptical about team coaching until I started participating in it, both as a coach and as a student.
As a coach, I have one adult student whose freestyle level exceeds her MIF level substantially. I can coach her for MIF and spins, but have her working with someone else for jumps. She should really be taking with a more advanced coach but is not able to travel for lessons and no other local coach is available. I've had her work with another coach who is around occasionally on jumps which was a great help.

As a skater, my own coach had limited availability last year so I started working with another coach to fill in when I missed lessons. The additional pair of eyes, and different method of teaching, have been incredibly helpful and I've made substantially more progress than I have in a long time.

I can see where it might be confusing to a child to have two different methods suggested but it works great for me!


Thanks! I am hoping since this coach, coached my daughter's coach, that the way they teach elements might be similar. Does that make sense?

Thanks again!

[slusher]

The only person who arranges other coaches for your daughter is her own coach. It could be common courtesy to say "coach, when you are away we prefer to have lessons with Mrs. X and Mr. Y and we are not always thrilled with Miss Z" so that she knows who you like, but it's the coaches decision to make.

Thanks! I am hoping since this coach, coached my daughter's coach, that the way they teach elements might be similar. Does that make sense?

Not always. Techniques change and some coaches don't keep up with the latest.

[aussieskater]

Slusher, I hear what you're saying, but as a paying parent (and as a paying skater/student), if perhaps my DD doesn't get along with Miss Z, or if perhaps I know Miss Z to not be reliable about showing up, or whatever, then I'm not going to be willing to foot the bill for Miss Z, and I feel quite strongly that the primary coach needs to abide by that. (Mind you, I would think that most if not all coaches would abide by such a stated preference - it's sensible to put a student with a good fit after all!)

[isakswings]

The only person who arranges other coaches for your daughter is her own coach. It could be common courtesy to say "coach, when you are away we prefer to have lessons with Mrs. X and Mr. Y and we are not always thrilled with Miss Z" so that she knows who you like, but it's the coaches decision to make.



Not always. Techniques change and some coaches don't keep up with the latest.

Slusher, I hear what you're saying, but as a paying parent (and as a paying skater/student), if perhaps my DD doesn't get along with Miss Z, or if perhaps I know Miss Z to not be reliable about showing up, or whatever, then I'm not going to be willing to foot the bill for Miss Z, and I feel quite strongly that the primary coach needs to abide by that. (Mind you, I would think that most if not all coaches would abide by such a stated preference - it's sensible to put a student with a good fit after all!)

Thanks to both of you. I talked to dd's coach about a secondary coach, a few weeks ago. I asked her if she was unavailable, who she would suggest for dd to have lessons with. She told me 2 names one of which is her own coach and another coach from the same rink as her coach. I have heard very good things about her coach, so she is actually who I had in mind for dd's secondary coach. I kinda figured dd's coach would talk to the other coach about taking dd, so that doesn't bother me BUT I definately agree that as a parent, I have the final say in who teaches my daughter. I'm not TOO worried about it being a bad fit since I have seen this coach work with other kids and I like her style. Anyway, I appreciate the feedback everyone has given me! I don't want to step on anyone's toes! I don't think we will be needing a secondary coach too often, but I definately want a back up plan just in case dd's coach is unavailable.

[slusher]

The parent doesn't really get to decide secondary coaches, I'm sorry to say. The parent has the choice of choosing the base coach and that's it. If your base coach is unavailable THEY decide who is going to fill in for them and they have to call the other coach and arrange it. A parent doesn't do the arranging. Most coaches and parents have a good relationship and they won't stick you with Miss Z because that would cause too many problems, so be really really open with your base coach about how absences will work.

[Skittl1321]

The parent doesn't really get to decide secondary coaches, I'm sorry to say. The parent has the choice of choosing the base coach and that's it. If your base coach is unavailable THEY decide who is going to fill in for them and they have to call the other coach and arrange it. A parent doesn't do the arranging. Most coaches and parents have a good relationship and they won't stick you with Miss Z because that would cause too many problems, so be really really open with your base coach about how absences will work.

This totally depends on the rink/club. In many places you will have a coach, and should you want to take a lesson from the another coach (either for the heck of it, or because your coach is going to be absent) you just tell your primary coach that you will be taking the lesson from someone else (you tell your primary coach, because otherwise the secondary coach cannot give you the lesson due to PSA ethics). I know my coach certainly wouldn't arrange for me to take lessons with another coach/ nor tell me which coach to use when she is unavailable, that is completely left to me to figure out.

Honestly, I don't think a coach "owns" a skater. The skater (and their parent) should be able to make whatever decisions they want regarding secondary/tertiary/substitute coaches. Should the primary coach DISAGREE with them, they can always choose to drop the skater, but if my coach disallowed me from taking from someone else, they wouldn't be my primary coach anymore. A skater is not the coach's property. Most coaches have the best interest of their skaters at heart, however, so if they have a reason for not wanting them to work with another coach, I would hope they clealry communicate it.

IMO, if a skater/parent does not like a coach, I wouldn't take lessons from them. These lessons cost WAY too much to be taking from someone you don't care for.

[twokidsskatemom]

This totally depends on the rink/club. In many places you will have a coach, and should you want to take a lesson from the another coach (either for the heck of it, or because your coach is going to be absent) you just tell your primary coach that you will be taking the lesson from someone else (you tell your primary coach, because otherwise the secondary coach cannot give you the lesson due to PSA ethics). I know my coach certainly wouldn't arrange for me to take lessons with another coach/ nor tell me which coach to use when she is unavailable, that is completely left to me to figure out.

Honestly, I don't think a coach "owns" a skater. The skater (and their parent) should be able to make whatever decisions they want regarding secondary/tertiary/substitute coaches. Should the primary coach DISAGREE with them, they can always choose to drop the skater, but if my coach disallowed me from taking from someone else, they wouldn't be my primary coach anymore. A skater is not the coach's property. Most coaches have the best interest of their skaters at heart, however, so if they have a reason for not wanting them to work with another coach, I would hope they clealry communicate it.
Amen !!
As a parent I would talk to the primary coach re talking from another coach and be respectful if they had a legit reason for not wanting my skater to take from a different coach. But its my choice and I would drop a coach if they had real issues with the idea of bringing another coach in.

[isakswings]

This totally depends on the rink/club. In many places you will have a coach, and should you want to take a lesson from the another coach (either for the heck of it, or because your coach is going to be absent) you just tell your primary coach that you will be taking the lesson from someone else (you tell your primary coach, because otherwise the secondary coach cannot give you the lesson due to PSA ethics). I know my coach certainly wouldn't arrange for me to take lessons with another coach/ nor tell me which coach to use when she is unavailable, that is completely left to me to figure out.

Honestly, I don't think a coach "owns" a skater. The skater (and their parent) should be able to make whatever decisions they want regarding secondary/tertiary/substitute coaches. Should the primary coach DISAGREE with them, they can always choose to drop the skater, but if my coach disallowed me from taking from someone else, they wouldn't be my primary coach anymore. A skater is not the coach's property. Most coaches have the best interest of their skaters at heart, however, so if they have a reason for not wanting them to work with another coach, I would hope they clealry communicate it.

IMO, if a skater/parent does not like a coach, I wouldn't take lessons from them. These lessons cost WAY too much to be taking from someone you don't care for.


I agree. BTW, dd's coach and I have already discussed this. I brought it up because I know she has time constraints during the school year. I wanted to know who she would suggest and who she would be most comfortable with substituting when she is not available. Dd will be doing 3 competitions in the next few months and I want to make sure we can fit in as many lessons as possible. If dd's coach can only take her once a week right now, then I would like a secondary coach who can take her an additional day. I completely respect my daughter's coach, which is why I specifically asked HER what coach she would suggest when she is not available. I am perfectly fine with the coaches she suggested, but that said, I also feel strongly that if one of those coaches and my dd don't mesh well, that it absolutely is my right to tell dd's coach(diplomatically, of coarse!) that the match is not a good one for us. We have a good relationship with dd's coach and I honestly feel if any issues come up, she will do all she can to help to resolve those issues. I don't forsee any problems. I also wanted to add that dd's coach has already created her program, so what I need the second coach for is to help dd get btter at that program and to improve on other skills too. Make sense?

I DO appreciate all the feedback everyone has given. We are still very new to this sport so I don't know all the rules just yet.

[isakswings]

Amen !!
As a parent I would talk to the primary coach re talking from another coach and be respectful if they had a legit reason for not wanting my skater to take from a different coach. But its my choice and I would drop a coach if they had real issues with the idea of bringing another coach in.

Same here. Dd's coach was perfectly fine with the idea of having someone else fill in for her if she wasn't available for a lesson. I was made it clear to dd's coach that SHE is dd's primary coach and I have every intention of keeping her as such. BUT as a parent who wants to do all she can to help her daughter be prepared for competitions, I want to have a plan b in place. I've always been completely up front with dd's coach and nothing will change that. Last year, this was not an issue because dd was not competing. Her once a week lessons were more then fine. Anyway... thanks again for the feedback.

[aussieskater]

The parent doesn't really get to decide secondary coaches, I'm sorry to say. The parent has the choice of choosing the base coach and that's it. If your base coach is unavailable THEY decide who is going to fill in for them and they have to call the other coach and arrange it. A parent doesn't do the arranging. Most coaches and parents have a good relationship and they won't stick you with Miss Z because that would cause too many problems, so be really really open with your base coach about how absences will work.

Sorry Slusher, but no. I am the parent, and I will decide who teaches my child. Clearly, I'm going to take the input of the primary coach seriously, but if I'm uncomfortable with a coach, then no way is that coach going anywhere near my child. If the primary coach is uncomfortable with that, then the primary coach is not a good fit for our family.

This totally depends on the rink/club. In many places you will have a coach, and should you want to take a lesson from the another coach (either for the heck of it, or because your coach is going to be absent) you just tell your primary coach that you will be taking the lesson from someone else (you tell your primary coach, because otherwise the secondary coach cannot give you the lesson due to PSA ethics). I know my coach certainly wouldn't arrange for me to take lessons with another coach/ nor tell me which coach to use when she is unavailable, that is completely left to me to figure out.

Honestly, I don't think a coach "owns" a skater. The skater (and their parent) should be able to make whatever decisions they want regarding secondary/tertiary/substitute coaches.

(snip)

A skater is not the coach's property. Most coaches have the best interest of their skaters at heart, however, so if they have a reason for not wanting them to work with another coach, I would hope they clearly communicate it.

Skittl, what you describe is kind of the way it works down here, except that rather than just announcing that the skater is going to take extra/replacement lessons from someone else, the skater/parent is expected to check with the primary coach that primary coach has no problems with taking lessons from Coach X in primary coach's absence. Also, if asked (and most coaches usually are asked), primary coach will generally nominate one or two names as their preferred stand-in or extra coach.

I absolutely agree with you that a skater is not "owned" by a coach. When the coach pays the bills (:P), maybe the situation would be a little different, but while the skater (or their parents) pays the bills, the skater (or their parents) decides who will coach the skater, and how much the family can afford.

I am perfectly fine with the coaches she suggested, but that said, I also feel strongly that if one of those coaches and my dd don't mesh well, that it absolutely is my right to tell dd's coach(diplomatically, of coarse!) that the match is not a good one for us.

Agree completely.

[Mrs Redboots]

The parent doesn't really get to decide secondary coaches, I'm sorry to say. The parent has the choice of choosing the base coach and that's it. If your base coach is unavailable THEY decide who is going to fill in for them and they have to call the other coach and arrange it. A parent doesn't do the arranging. Most coaches and parents have a good relationship and they won't stick you with Miss Z because that would cause too many problems, so be really really open with your base coach about how absences will work.

Sorry, but I must join in the chorus of disagreement here! It is, ultimately the skaters' - or their parents' - decision.

Having said that, I am quite sure that, due to rink politics and so on, there are coaches who would have no qualms in dropping a student should they take lessons (either regularly or on an ad hoc basis) from a coach they (the original coach) disliked or had other issues with.

However, apart from that, the primary coach may suggest that their skater would work well with Coach A, or that Coach C might be the perfect person for an occasional "holiday" lesson. But at the end of the day it is for the parents or the skater - whoever pays the bills - to decide.

[isakswings]

Skittl, what you describe is kind of the way it works down here, except that rather than just announcing that the skater is going to take extra/replacement lessons from someone else, the skater/parent is expected to check with the primary coach that primary coach has no problems with taking lessons from Coach X in primary coach's absence. Also, if asked (and most coaches usually are asked), primary coach will generally nominate one or two names as their preferred stand-in or extra coach.

I absolutely agree with you that a skater is not "owned" by a coach. When the coach pays the bills (:P), maybe the situation would be a little different, but while the skater (or their parents) pays the bills, the skater (or their parents) decides who will coach the skater, and how much the family can afford.

Yup... I agree. Around here, it seems to work the same way as it does where you are. Our coach did as you said, she told me 2 names of coaches she would prefer we work with when she is unavailable. The fact is, this is my child and I can and will have a say when it comes to people who interact with her. I won't pay for a coach who I feel is not a good fit with my child. I want her coached and if it isn't a good fit, I can't imagine her learning much.

Anyway, as I said before, I appreciate everyone's opinions regarding this. Thanks!

[slusher]

I'm in Canada and in our area it is always the base coach that pre-arranges any secondary coaches. It completely cuts out the issue of soliciting. It's most of section 6 of the coach code of ethics.

[Query]

Thanks! I am hoping since this coach, coached my daughter's coach, that the way they teach elements might be similar. Does that make sense?

I've had too many coaches. Some move completely different ways. Take simple things, like gliding on one foot. Some coaches say to balance forward on the ball, some back near the heel, some in the center. Different body part alignment.

Different use of knees in strokes, turns and spins. Different use of torso/spinal muscles. Different times the upper body is rotated with or against the lower body. Different height by which the free foot is lifted, where it is held, different angle at which thrusts occur. Different trajectories on detailed hold positions on dance patterns. Different ways of thinking of things. Even with coaches within the same discipline.

I can't even imagine how judges can hope to agree on how to score people. Figure skating, like most forms of dance, is imperfectly defined. At first this drove me crazy. Now I stick to one coach.

Assuming you are happy with the current coach, missing a lesson is not so terrible, compared with having to dealing with a different style of motion. At the least, a coach with a style your current coach thinks is fairly compatible is probably better.

[isakswings]

Assuming you are happy with the current coach, missing a lesson is not so terrible, compared with having to dealing with a different style of motion. At the least, a coach with a style your current coach thinks is fairly compatible is probably better.

Thanks. I agree that I wouldn't want her to have too many coaches. Too many cooks in the kitchen is never a good thing. However, the main reason I am thinking of finding a secondary coach is because my daughter is starting to compete more. I want her to have more then one lesson a week when she is preparing for competitions. Her coach graduates from college in the spring, so this will only be an issue this year. Anyway... thanks for the feedback!