What is a Waltz 3?

[isakswings]

Dd just passed Freeskate/Freestyle 1(USFSA) and I was looking at the curriculum for Freestyle/freeskate 2 and a waltz 3 is on the the list. What is that? I've googled it trying to see what it is and can't find the answer. Thanks!

[Clarice]

It's a three turn done to a count - 3 counts on the entry edge, turn and 3 counts on the exit edge. Here's the official directions from the Basic Skills Instructor's Manual:

Waltz threes (RFO & LFO): While moving on a circle, the body positions during the turns will be held firmly in an extended free skating position. Note: The waltz threes will be done with an extended free leg throughout the turn. The entrance edge and the exit edge of the three-turn will be held three times the skater's height.

Interesting, it doesn't mention anything about timing. I was taught these to a count, and I think it helps.

[Pgh.Coach]

Well, there are three different types of waltz threes. These descriptions are taken from the U.S. Figure Skating rulebook.

American Waltz Type Three: A three-turn from an outside edge in which the free leg is extended and the toe and hip are well turned out and held over the tracing. The instep of the free foot is drawn close to the heel of the skating foot as the turn is made. After the turn onto an inside edge, the free foot is extended back of the tracing before being brough back beside the skating foot in time for the next step.

Eurpoean Waltz Type Three: A three-turn which begins as in [the American Waltz three] with the free leg extended over the tracing and left behind during the turn, and swings through after its completion in front of the tracing, before being brough back beside the skating foot in time for the next step.

Ravensburger Waltz Type Three: An inside three-turn which begins as in [the American Waltz three] with the free leg extended over the tracing and left behind during the turn, and swings through after its completion in front of the tracing, before being brought back beside the skating foot in time for the next step.

I'd suspect that at your daughter's level, the turn is similar to the American Waltz three. I'd ask your daughter's coach just to be sure.

[isakswings]

Well, there are three different types of waltz threes. These descriptions are taken from the U.S. Figure Skating rulebook.

American Waltz Type Three: A three-turn from an outside edge in which the free leg is extended and the toe and hip are well turned out and held over the tracing. The instep of the free foot is drawn close to the heel of the skating foot as the turn is made. After the turn onto an inside edge, the free foot is extended back of the tracing before being brough back beside the skating foot in time for the next step.

Eurpoean Waltz Type Three: A three-turn which begins as in [the American Waltz three] with the free leg extended over the tracing and left behind during the turn, and swings through after its completion in front of the tracing, before being brough back beside the skating foot in time for the next step.

Ravensburger Waltz Type Three: An inside three-turn which begins as in [the American Waltz three] with the free leg extended over the tracing and left behind during the turn, and swings through after its completion in front of the tracing, before being brought back beside the skating foot in time for the next step.

I'd suspect that at your daughter's level, the turn is similar to the American Waltz three. I'd ask your daughter's coach just to be sure.


Thank you! I'd suspect it is like the first also. So, this is a dance move? Or is it considered a foot work sequence? I'll have to ask her private coach to go over it with her before she starts her LTS class. Thank-you!

[Pgh.Coach]

Thank you! I'd suspect it is like the first also. So, this is a dance move? Or is it considered a foot work sequence? I'll have to ask her private coach to go over it with her before she starts her LTS class. Thank-you!

The threes I described are typically used in dance; however, you can create footwork sequences by stringing together any number of steps and turns, which can include a variety of three-turns.

[isakswings]

The threes I described are typically used in dance; however, you can create footwork sequences by stringing together any number of steps and turns, which can include a variety of three-turns.

Thanks again. What was funny about me hunting down a "waltz 3" to find out what it was last night, was that I was looking for a jump! LOL. Then as I looked further, I got to thinking that it might be a dance move or footwork of some kind. Thanks again for clearing that up for me. I appreciate it.

[Clarice]

Yes, it's a dance move, but for Basic Skills all they really want to do is see good control of the edges and the turn. Note that the Basic Skills manual says the free leg stays extended throughout the turn - that's different from the American Waltz where the foot is brought in as the turn is made then extended again. She'll need them for her Waltz Eight in Free Skate 3, which is a Move in the Field.

[isakswings]

Yes, it's a dance move, but for Basic Skills all they really want to do is see good control of the edges and the turn. Note that the Basic Skills manual says the free leg stays extended throughout the turn - that's different from the American Waltz where the foot is brought in as the turn is made then extended again. She'll need them for her Waltz Eight in Free Skate 3, which is a Move in the Field.

Thanks! Which level of MIF is that move in? I keep wondering when dd's coach will want her to start testing. I am guessing not for awhile, which is FINE with me. LOL!

[Kim to the Max]

Thanks! Which level of MIF is that move in? I keep wondering when dd's coach will want her to start testing. I am guessing not for awhile, which is FINE with me. LOL!

The Waltz-8 is on the pre-preliminary test, which is the first Moves in the Field test skaters take. The test also includes strokes (CW and CCW), basic edges (inside, outside, and left and right), and straight line spirals.

[isakswings]

The Waltz-8 is on the pre-preliminary test, which is the first Moves in the Field test skaters take. The test also includes strokes (CW and CCW), basic edges (inside, outside, and left and right), and straight line spirals.

Thanks! She's working on basic edges. Her coach started those with her last month and mentioned they were on the pre-pre test. She has pretty spirals that are getting better and better and higher. I need to tape her again because dd thinks her spirals aren't as good as they used to be, yet her form and position look so much better. Now if we can get her to stop looking at her leg!!! LOL

[Mrs Redboots]

There is the Waltz 8, which is one of the USFSA Moves in the Field; I believe it was also a compulsory figure in those days.

Then there is the Waltz 3, which is an exercise, usually done round the circle. You push off on to a (say) LFO edge which you hold for 3 beats, extending your free leg behind (don't forget to point your toe!) on the 1st beat, bringing it into the heel of the skating foot on the 2nd beat, and on the 3rd beat, turning a 3-turn. You then step down on to a RBO edge, which is held for 3 beats during which you have to concnetrate on your check, then you push from there on to the LFO edge, ideally without coming up on your toes as you do so (bending your knee deeply and lifting your free hip helps) and repeat, quite literally, ad nauseaum (you do get dizzy if you don't do this every session!). You then do it round the other way.

And if you want some real fun, you do it with a partner....

[isakswings]

There is the Waltz 8, which is one of the USFSA Moves in the Field; I believe it was also a compulsory figure in those days.

Then there is the Waltz 3, which is an exercise, usually done round the circle. You push off on to a (say) LFO edge which you hold for 3 beats, extending your free leg behind (don't forget to point your toe!) on the 1st beat, bringing it into the heel of the skating foot on the 2nd beat, and on the 3rd beat, turning a 3-turn. You then step down on to a RBO edge, which is held for 3 beats during which you have to concnetrate on your check, then you push from there on to the LFO edge, ideally without coming up on your toes as you do so (bending your knee deeply and lifting your free hip helps) and repeat, quite literally, ad nauseaum (you do get dizzy if you don't do this every session!). You then do it round the other way.

And if you want some real fun, you do it with a partner....

Thanks! DD's grace on the ice needs to be improved, so I am sure this will not be a very pretty move yet. LOL! Once she completes the freestyle classes, I think I will have her take the ice dancing classes. The rate she is going with LTS, she'll start those the end of Spring beginning of Summer. What will be nice about those classes is that people rarely take them. Dd's friend is just passed Dance 1 and she was the only one in that class. Our LTS classes are 40 for 6 weeks of lessons. Not to shabby for LTS, let alone what will basically be a private lesson! Anyway... Thanks!

[Sessy]

At my club they call a waltz 3 is an 8-shaped pattern of outside 3-turns (one half of the eight they're done on the left foot, one half on the right foot) which starts from the center of the 8 on the left foot, and where each edge is held for an equal amount of time. I think you call it the waltz 8 though in the USA, because it's indeed on that test of ours which is more or less the equivalent of your pre-pre.
Just to make the confusion complete, LOL.

[Clarice]

At my club they call a waltz 3 is an 8-shaped pattern of outside 3-turns (one half of the eight they're done on the left foot, one half on the right foot) which starts from the center of the 8 on the left foot, and where each edge is held for an equal amount of time. I think you call it the waltz 8 though in the USA, because it's indeed on that test of ours which is more or less the equivalent of your pre-pre.
Just to make the confusion complete, LOL.

No, that's a figures Three. A waltz 8 is a little more complicated. You do start in the center of the 8, then do a forward outside 3-turn as you described for the first 6 counts (first third of the circle), then step onto a back outside edge on the other foot and hold for 6 counts while shifting the arms, then change feet again by stepping onto a forward outside edge and holding for the final 6 counts. This brings you back to the center of the 8 so you can do the whole thing again starting with the other foot. A waltz 8 has more steps than what you described, and I suspect the 8 pattern is bigger than what you're doing (either that, or you're counting a lot slower!).

[dbny]

No, that's a figures Three. A waltz 8 is a little more complicated. You do start in the center of the 8, then do a forward outside 3-turn as you described for the first 6 counts (first third of the circle), then step onto a back outside edge on the other foot and hold for 6 counts while shifting the arms, then change feet again by stepping onto a forward outside edge and holding for the final 6 counts. This brings you back to the center of the 8 so you can do the whole thing again starting with the other foot. A waltz 8 has more steps than what you described, and I suspect the 8 pattern is bigger than what you're doing (either that, or you're counting a lot slower!).

The figures three and the waltz-8 are both figures patterns, and would be the same size if done in the figures context.

[Clarice]

The figures three, and the waltz-8 are both figures patterns, and would be the same size if done in the figures context.

Yes, I know that, so if you were counting 3-in, 3-out on the three-turn, the counts would be slower on the figures three than on the waltz 8.

ETA, that sounds a little defensive - I'm actually trying to agree with you. And I'm assuming that both patterns are being skated at the same speed, because that would make a difference, too. Sessy's right about things getting confusing! It's so much easier to demonstrate than describe.

[Sessy]

No, that's a figures Three. A waltz 8 is a little more complicated. You do start in the center of the 8, then do a forward outside 3-turn as you described for the first 6 counts (first third of the circle), then step onto a back outside edge on the other foot and hold for 6 counts while shifting the arms, then change feet again by stepping onto a forward outside edge and holding for the final 6 counts. This brings you back to the center of the 8 so you can do the whole thing again starting with the other foot. A waltz 8 has more steps than what you described, and I suspect the 8 pattern is bigger than what you're doing (either that, or you're counting a lot slower!).

We count to 3 and otherwise it's the same as you're describing. The whole pattern ends up being the size of a hockey circle... :o

[dbny]

We count to 3 and otherwise it's the same as you're describing. The whole pattern ends up being the size of a hockey circle... :o

Figures patterns are sized according to the skater's height, so few of them would be as large as a hockey circle. I believe that in the US the standard diameter is 3 times the skater's height, while in Europe it is twice the skater's height.

[Sessy]

Yeah but that one is on the MIF test in the Netherlands, not on figures. Or is that not what you mean?

[Clarice]

Here in the US, the waltz 8 is on the Pre-Preliminary and Adult Pre-Bronze MIF tests, and also on the Preliminary Figures test.

[Mrs Redboots]

Here in the US, the waltz 8 is on the Pre-Preliminary and Adult Pre-Bronze MIF tests, and also on the Preliminary Figures test.
I think they've changed the Adult Pre-Bronze test now, and have an exercise involving inside and outside 3-turns instead. Not quite power 3s, but you can see how it will "grow up" into power 3s when the time comes....

[dbny]

I think they've changed the Adult Pre-Bronze test now, and have an exercise involving inside and outside 3-turns instead. Not quite power 3s, but you can see how it will "grow up" into power 3s when the time comes....

They haven't removed the Waltz-8, just added the new three turn pattern. I don't really think it has much to do with the Prelim/Bronze power threes, except for the step to BI edge after the FO three.

[sk8lady]

Figures patterns are sized according to the skater's height, so few of them would be as large as a hockey circle. I believe that in the US the standard diameter is 3 times the skater's height, while in Europe it is twice the skater's height.

For the MIF test, I have never seen this done anywhere but on the hockey circle. I'm pretty short but I'm not sure it's three times my height!

[dbny]

For the MIF test, I have never seen this done anywhere but on the hockey circle. I'm pretty short but I'm not sure it's three times my height!

Whereas I have never seen it done on a hockey circle! Maybe this is a regional variation we've come across. Also, remember we are talking about diameter, not radius.

[Clarice]

I didn't do it on a hockey circle for the test, but I've practiced it that way. Starting in the center of the hockey circle, my scribed figure eight goes just beyond the circle. So the entire figure is a little bigger than the hockey circle, but each circle of the 8 is quite a bit smaller.

[dbny]

I didn't do it on a hockey circle for the test, but I've practiced it that way. Starting in the center of the hockey circle, my scribed figure eight goes just beyond the circle. So the entire figure is a little bigger than the hockey circle, but each circle of the 8 is quite a bit smaller.

I used to do it that way also, but I discovered a great way to teach it, which helps the skater portion the circle properly. Now I start on a blue line facing and behind one of the red dots. By aiming between the red dot and the blue line (the angle is what determines the size of the circle) the skater knows they are on the FO edge. The BO edge must start before getting back to the blue line (which is half the circle, ergo too far), and the last edge, the FO back to center, must start after the blue line. A lot of kids have trouble visualizing a circle on the ice and the landmarks really help.

[Isk8NYC]

I didn't do it on a hockey circle for the test, but I've practiced it that way. Starting in the center of the hockey circle, my scribed figure eight goes just beyond the circle. So the entire figure is a little bigger than the hockey circle, but each circle of the 8 is quite a bit smaller.
Smart - I was surprised to see a test session where the skaters didn't get to use the double circles. One student was a bit rattled by not working on the familiar circles.

I use a hockey line as the diameter of both circles, so it's easier to find the center again.

[Skittl1321]

Smart - I was surprised to see a test session where the skaters didn't get to use the double circles. One student was a bit rattled by not working on the familiar circles.

I use a hockey line as the diameter of both circles, so it's easier to find the center again.

My coach taught me to REALLY skid hard at the end of my stop getting to the waltz 8, so that I could use that mark on the ice as my center!

As for Waltz 3, I was essentially just taught that that was a 3 turn with a step onto the back outside edge , where each part is held for the same amount of time, and after the back outside edge you step forward into another 3 turn, and continue the pattern.

[dbny]

As for Waltz 3, I was essentially just taught that that was a 3 turn with a step onto the back outside edge , where each part is held for the same amount of time, and after the back outside edge you step forward into another 3 turn, and continue the pattern.

Same here. That's what waltz-3's are in my area.

[isakswings]

As for Waltz 3, I was essentially just taught that that was a 3 turn with a step onto the back outside edge , where each part is held for the same amount of time, and after the back outside edge you step forward into another 3 turn, and continue the pattern.

Same here. That's what waltz-3's are in my area.

Interesting. I wonder how they will teach dd this when she starts her LTS class next week? I'll have to watch and see how they teach it!

[Clarice]

Interesting. I wonder how they will teach dd this when she starts her LTS class next week? I'll have to watch and see how they teach it!

I'd be stunned if they did it any other way than what Skittl described. This is Basic Skills, after all.

[cazzie]

Part of daughter MIF. (Backward edges and some other stuff as well). Her free coaches were shaking their heads during group class this morning. WHen she asked what was wrong they told her "you're doing it just like an ice-dancer...."

Also said somethng about her backward edges being "too deep".

Is this a problem for her MIF test?

(Ignorant parent here - no idea what "doing it like an ice dancer" vs "doing it like a free skater" means or any of the above with too deep edges. Daughter didn't know either and isn't sure whether or not to be worried about this or whether its going to delay test papers going in).

[kimberley801]

Maybe someone already said this, but isn't a waltz three like walking through a waltz jump. Or at least a Waltz jump without the Jump???

[dbny]

Part of daughter MIF. (Backward edges and some other stuff as well). Her free coaches were shaking their heads during group class this morning. WHen she asked what was wrong they told her "you're doing it just like an ice-dancer...."

Also said somethng about her backward edges being "too deep".

Is this a problem for her MIF test?

(Ignorant parent here - no idea what "doing it like an ice dancer" vs "doing it like a free skater" means or any of the above with too deep edges. Daughter didn't know either and isn't sure whether or not to be worried about this or whether its going to delay test papers going in).

Which country do you live in and which test are you referring to? Deep edges are usually preferred over shallow ones, but it can depend on the particular move and the context. If she is doing the pre-preliminary edges on the line, then it's possible that the lobes were U shaped instead of semi-circles or that she is retrogressing. In either case, I would not describe the edges as "too deep", but it's a possiblity that this is the kind of thing that was meant.

Maybe someone already said this, but isn't a waltz three like walking through a waltz jump. Or at least a Waltz jump without the Jump???

Nope. Not in the US anyway. Perhaps you are confused because UK terminology for "waltz jump" is "three jump."

[Pgh.Coach]

Maybe someone already said this, but isn't a waltz three like walking through a waltz jump. Or at least a Waltz jump without the Jump???

Not exactly. I believe you're thinking of a "three jump", which is what skaters in some countries (not sure which ones, so perhaps our non-U.S. skaters can back me up here) call the waltz jump. This term is used interchangeably because a waltz jump is technically a three-turn in the air.

[Pgh.Coach]

Also said somethng about her backward edges being "too deep".

Is this a problem for her MIF test?

The "problem" is likely attributed to her retrogressing the edge as she approaches the axis (line). Sometimes edges that retrogress will look more like an upside down U or a heart (when doing three-turns) rather than a naturally curving lobe.

Lobes that retrogress, especially at the Pre-Preliminary level (assuming that's your daughter's skating level) are rarely caused by a skater's edge quality but rather by overrotating the shoulders/arms and upperbody too far outside the circle, which would happen on back outside edges, for instance.

Have her coach(es) explain--or better yet, demonstrate--to your daughter what is desired vs. what she is doing. Some children don't understand concepts like "retrogression", so perhaps using a more child-friendly term is what her coach(es) were trying to do when they described her edges as "too deep."

[dbny]

Hey, Pgh. Coach, looks like great minds think alike! I got there a few minutes before you - I must type faster :lol:,

[isakswings]

I'd be stunned if they did it any other way than what Skittl described. This is Basic Skills, after all.

I am hoping they keep it simple! I am sure they will. :-)

[aussieskater]

Not exactly. I believe you're thinking of a "three jump", which is what skaters in some countries (not sure which ones, so perhaps our non-U.S. skaters can back me up here) call the waltz jump. This term is used interchangeably because a waltz jump is technically a three-turn in the air.

Interesting. Down here, it seems that most skaters and coaches now tend to use the term "waltz jump" and "three jump" interchangeably, to refer to a jump which takes off forward on one foot and following a half-rotation, lands backwards on the other foot. So not a "three turn in the air". Some of our older coaches do differentiate, and use "waltz jump" to refer to the standard jump described above, and either "three jump" or (more commonly) "jumped three" to refer to a jump which is similar to the waltz jump, except that it takes off and lands on the same foot.

[Pgh.Coach]

Interesting. Down here, it seems that most skaters and coaches now tend to use the term "waltz jump" and "three jump" interchangeably, to refer to a jump which takes off forward on one foot and following a half-rotation, lands backwards on the other foot. So not a "three turn in the air".

Correct. I think what I meant to suggest is that a waltz jump is just making that half rotation you described rather than an actual three-turn, which occurs on the same foot throughout the turn.

[cazzie]

Asked dd about the U's and she said that is what she does sometimes - if she doesn't concentrate. Their old group MIF coach retired so she's getting used to to other coaches and doesn't always understand them - think kids and coaches both get used to each other?

Presume walz 3's like "an ice dancer" not too serious a problem?