Why can hockey skaters lace loosely?

[Query]

As near as I can tell, figure skaters need tight fits for two reasons:

1. To provide lateral support for the ankle. This is needed because skaters generate much larger lateral forces than walkers, runners, and people in most sports. Also because skaters jump while moving, though that is also true of gymnastics (barefoot – no support), ballet and similar performance dance (no ankle support) and some track and field events (shoes with some ankle support, but not as much).

2. We need to place that thin edge fairly precisely.

Both of these should apply to hockey too – in fact good hockey players do very aggressive sideways moves and jumps, and use very deep edges on thinner blades.

Yet I’ve noticed many very good hockey players barely lace their skates. Including some who appear to have fairly loose fits, so it isn’t that they get away with it from a very tight fit.

I have real troubles with edges and jumps if I don’t lace tight, and can generally tell when someone in figure skates on a public session is loosely laced, because they wobble or their foot leans way over. Why don't the hockey skaters?

Could figure bootmakers learn something from hockey skate makers, and find a way to make figure skates perform right while being more healthy by being less tight?

[Imo]

I lace my skates so that they're loose at the toes, just tight enough to be snug over the foot, and then very loose over the hooks - I like having room for deep knee bend and haven't had any ankle problems/injuries at all... I used to do up to double loop, although I pretty much stick to singles only now.

[icedancer2]

I lace my skates so that they're loose at the toes, just tight enough to be snug over the foot, and then very loose over the hooks - I like having room for deep knee bend and haven't had any ankle problems/injuries at all... I used to do up to double loop, although I pretty much stick to singles only now.

I do it this way, too - I don't jump but do dance and have no trouble getting deep edges - in fact, having the looseness at the tops helps me to bend more and get into my ankles. Otherwise I feel I am skating in a vise.

[TiggerTooSkates]

DH has played hockey off and on his whole life, and I asked him about this - since every time I watch him lace his skates, he uses a lace tightener!

He said he doesn't know how they skate with them that loose!

[sk8lady]

Most youth hockey players look for the strongest hockey dad they can find to lace their skates and pull them as tight as possible. It's amazing their feet don't go numb all the time.
There's more room in the forefoot in the hockey skates but the back tends to be pretty stiff. I lace my hockey skates a lot more loosely than my figure skates and they stay on fine. The back doesn't slip if they're loosely laced the way the figure skates (or at least my figure skates) do.

Since Nike bought Jackson and Bauer about two years ago a lot of the best features from figure skates are being incorporated into the high end hockey skates--like heat molding. It's interesting to watch the progression...

[Imo]

I do it this way, too - I don't jump but do dance and have no trouble getting deep edges - in fact, having the looseness at the tops helps me to bend more and get into my ankles. Otherwise I feel I am skating in a vise.

I also did a lot of ice dance (and am planning to get back into it after my baby arrives...) but I tied them the same for both dance and freestyle, pretty much. I just feel more in control of my edges when I can get the knee bend...

[blue111moon]

90% of the teenaged hockey players I see lace their skates loosely because:

- That's the way they tie their sneakers so they're used to it. Plus it's quicker than fussing to get the lacing "just right" the way the figure skaters do.

- They don't particularly care about edges and turns; they just want to go fast.

-they like them loose so they can bend their knees more.

-They skate mostly on inside edges because of the wide hockey stance.



One of the hockey coaches here holds a "how to lace" class for his high-school age players every season because he says the majority of the kids just shove their feet in and yank with no clue about what kind of support they need to avoid injuries.

[RachelSk8er]

I worked at a rink in HS and used to skate guard in hockey skates to avoid unnecessary wear and tear on my figure skates, and I played some intramural hockey in college (the rest of my family plays hockey, my dad played pro before I was born). I always had a hard time actually getting my skates as tight as I could get my figure skates, partially because hockey skates lace all the way up and don't have hooks like our skates do. And even when fit properly, they don't seem to fit as snug as figure skates to. Overall there is more room in the ankles, and I had PLENTY of room in the toes--mainly above my toes, and overall they just have a very different feeling. I ended up having the back (where it comes up) cut off on my skates because I just couldn't adjust to having that leather flap there.

You really don't need hockey skates to be as tight as figure skates. Since skaters bend forward when they skate and, if your skates are tight that would restrict you (they don't really bend like figure skates do) All you're really concerned with is speed, you're not really worried about quality edges, turns, and how you look doing it.

Skating on hockey skates is actually kind of fun. I'd get bored and start doing dance patterns, spins, edge jumps, different stuff off the MIF tests, etc.

[Morgail]

I've seen some hockey players (usually pre-teen, teen boys) with skates laced loosely and always wondered how they managed to not sprain their ankles. But then, this was always at public sessions when they were messing around with their friends. Maybe they lace them tightly for actual practice and games.

I can never get my skates laced tight enough at the beginning of a session, so I take advantage of that by doing dance and moves first since it's easier to get knee bend. Then I relace my skates and do freestyle.

[Query]

Hmm. The way IMO and Icedancer2 lace their skates, tight in the middle, loose at top and bottom, is exactly opposite what many skate books have advocated. Perhaps they control boots and edges using different parts of their feet than the bookwriters'.

In any event, figure skaters often have feet problems because of the extremely tight lacing and fit that they favor to gain that control. Yet many good hockey achieve strong control with looser fits and lacing than most figure skaters need, as do basketball and soccer players.

Does this imply a flaw in the way figure skates are designed? If better designed figure skates could be looser and still work well, wouldn't that be wonderful?

[sk8lady]

Does this imply a flaw in the way figure skates are designed? If better designed figure skates could be looser and still work well, wouldn't that be wonderful?

One of the problems is that a looser fit on figure skates would allow some play inside the boot, and when you're landing on your toepick, or taking off it, the boot slams into the toe. Very little is done on the toes in hockey (unless you're really good and can actually do a toe start without falling on your head!) so this isn't a problem.

What I really wonder about is whether it would be possible to utilize a figure skate without a heel. I'm not supposed to wear shoes with heels because of my neuromas, and the heel on my skating boot is MUCH higher than anything I wear in street shoes, so my feet tend to go numb after a while when skating. It's certainly possible to spin and even do edge jumps in hockey skates, so why have a heel on figure skates, other than for looks?

[Skittl1321]

What I really wonder about is whether it would be possible to utilize a figure skate without a heel. I'm not supposed to wear shoes with heels because of my neuromas, and the heel on my skating boot is MUCH higher than anything I wear in street shoes, so my feet tend to go numb after a while when skating. It's certainly possible to spin and even do edge jumps in hockey skates, so why have a heel on figure skates, other than for looks?

Because of the attached blade, I don't think a heel on figure skates functions the way it does on street shoes. First off, when wearing heels, I can feel a tilt to my foot. In ice skates, the foot feels flat. Second- I have horrible tendonitis, and like you cannot wear heels as street shoes, when I do I get such bad swelling that it takes days to recover, I have no problems with skates.

So while the heel looks much higher than any shoes I've owned in my lifetime, back when I used to be able to wear heels, the actual slant of the footbed is not equal to even my smallest heels.

[Imo]

Hmm. The way IMO and Icedancer2 lace their skates, tight in the middle, loose at top and bottom, is exactly opposite what many skate books have advocated...

I was taught (by my freestyle coach) right from the start to keep the laces over the hooks relatively loose so that I could gain deep kneebend and more control... also I wouldn't say they're tight in the middle, just enough to be secure and not let my feet slide around.

Yuka Sato also ties her skates very loosely at the top. I haven't really paid attention to others, but I did notice it on her.

[Query]

One of the problems is that a looser fit on figure skates would allow some play inside the boot, and when you're landing on your toepick, or taking off it, the boot slams into the toe. Very little is done on the toes in hockey (unless you're really good and can actually do a toe start without falling on your head!) so this isn't a problem.

There are very large sweet spot changes at both the front and rear of the hockey blade, which makes it easy to turn if you rock forward or back. I tried it, and it makes 3 turns much easier and faster with hockey skates than with figure skates. Isn't that the way hockey players are supposed do it?

I'm told good hockey and speed skaters roll through all or most of the blade for speed and power, so they use the front and rear of the blade more than we do. We can do that some (the extant varies by coach), but have to stop before reaching the toe pick, and the figure skating aesthetic is to keep the body weight line through the blade.

What I really wonder about is whether it would be possible to utilize a figure skate without a heel. I'm not supposed to wear shoes with heels because of my neuromas, and the heel on my skating boot is MUCH higher than anything I wear in street shoes, so my feet tend to go numb after a while when skating. It's certainly possible to spin and even do edge jumps in hockey skates, so why have a heel on figure skates, other than for looks?

I suspect looks are it - maybe when figure skating got started, people were still wearing dress boots that looked like riding boots, with the bottom shaped to hold onto a stirup.

I have some other theories which sort of make sense - though whenever I propose a theory, some skaters disagree.

Walking and running gaits typically start way out in front with a reached heal, and end way behind with a reached toe. Having a natural height heel lets you comfortably roll through that toe. Figure skating gaits generally keep the foot almost directly below or a little beside the body line. Reached toes occur only in the air for style, or in toe pick moves like certain jumps and spins. The high heel makes those much more difficult for those of us who aren't real flexible.

On the other hand, the figure skating standard that you shouldn't see or hear the toe pick touch during ordinary strokes, is helped by the raised heel, because it is harder to accidentally point the toe, and easier to push with the heel.

(Of course if the heels are too high, it hurts to point, and balance suffers.)

The differences in gait between walking or running and figure skating bring into some question the remarks of experts who don't skate. Skaters don't move naturally no matter what they wear.

The unstability of high spike heel shoes sprains ankles. But gliding skaters have the force of the ice holding them vertical, so that is less of a problem. So people with stability problems but high flexibility don't "feel" as if the heels are as high and unstable as they are.

One side effect of raised heel shoes is a major distortion of the foot shape due to weight shift. Some podiatrists have claimed this is the source of almost all foot health problems, because the foot isn't designed for it. But skates have rigid bottoms (probably because we can't safely bear our full weight along too narrow a strip of our bare feet), so the bottoms of our feet are more or less constrained to the shape of the bottoms of our boots+insoles, so the feet take whatever shape is thereby inposed, and most of the problems need not occur (except if the boots don't fit right).

Of course, for shoes and skates, the normal barefoot developement of foot muscles isn't needed and doesn't occur, which may lead to some foot health problems.

Another factor, at least for my Klingbeils, is that the apparent raised heel is larger than that of the footbed, so it isn't quite as extreme as it looks.

In any event, you could sand or scrape or plane off all or part of the heel on old boots you don't care about. You would need to keep the bottom matching the shape of plate mounting surfaces (though at a different slant), and change the hole positions. Since it changes the pitch of the foot, you would need to alter the shape of the inside of the boot to fit. I think it could be a fairly major undertaking. If you don't feel up to it, a really good bootfitter could help. I suggest you do a little at a time. If you go to far, glue in some leather or similar material to bring it back.

I tried using lower end skates with about 1/4" less heel. I liked the lower heels, but the lower end boots weren't stiff enough for me.

[sk8lady]

There are very large sweet spot changes at both the front and rear of the hockey blade, which makes it easy to turn if you rock forward or back. I tried it, and it makes 3 turns much easier and faster with hockey skates than with figure skates. Isn't that the way hockey players are supposed do it?



Well...I really don't see ANY hockey players who do 3 turns, period. My coaching experience is with youth hockey, where the turns are all (supposed to be) mohawks, which the coaches refer to as "pivots" (which always confuses the heck out of me!) or "transitions". The kids don't really do them correctly till they're at least Squirt age, if at all. Two of the local power skating coaches--one with figure skating as well as hockey background and one whose mother was a figure skating coach--do teach 3 turns but they're in the minority. The college and pro players, as far as I can tell from watching in the stands, use mohawks or step-over turns.

Overall, the hockey blade is substantially shorter than the figure blade (hockey rules actually forbid the use of "dangerous extensions" on the blade, i.e., figure skate blades!) so they're a lot less forgiving than the figure skate blade--if you don't time your 3 turns right, you just fall down rather than scraping the toepick. Same with spins--if you're a toepick scraper, you just fall down. It's helpful to practice certain things in hockey skates to get into the right spot on the blade--power pulls are a good example.

I like the idea of scraping the heel off an older pair of skates, though. Might let my engineer husband have at it! :)

[moojja]

What I really wonder about is whether it would be possible to utilize a figure skate without a heel. I'm not supposed to wear shoes with heels because of my neuromas, and the heel on my skating boot is MUCH higher than anything I wear in street shoes, so my feet tend to go numb after a while when skating. It's certainly possible to spin and even do edge jumps in hockey skates, so why have a heel on figure skates, other than for looks?

But hockey boots do have heels. If you look at the blade, it's higher towards the end, in effect raising up the heel.

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