Jump psychology

[fsk8r]

I've a competition in 6 days and for the last two weeks I've been bottling my flip jump. Before this, I could do a flip jump but I've never had one fast enough to do in a programme, but my coach has decided that I needed a bit of a push, so I've now got a flip, toe-loop combination where before (old test program) had only a toe-loop.
A month ago I managed the flip in my program for the first and only time (at fourth attempt). Since then, I've managed to talk myself into such a tizz that I can barely land a flip from a virtual standstill and two foot it every time I try to do it with the program steps.

So my question is, how do I talk myself back out from this state of mind?

I've never quite got myself into quite such a mess with my skating before. I've freaked out before tests, but have always been able to at least perform the element even if it doesn't reach my standards for doing it well. Not being able to do the flip is frustrating me and my coach. She says there's nothing wrong with my set up, she just watches me bottle it mid-air.

Help really needed. I've a practice session tomorrow and then a last minute run-through the day before the comp, and I just don't feel ready. This is my first competition so I'm not expecting greatness.

Suggestions that might help please!

[flo]

Relax and trust yourself. Really. This is what I say to myself before doubles. Just go for it, and don't be afraid to fall.

When you talk to yourself - be nice. It's so easy to focus on the problems and what's not right with something. Remind yourself that you're on ice, on skinny blades and managing to jump up in the air, rotate, and land! All while doing this to music and smiling. This is greatness!!!

[Skating Jessica]

I completely agree that you need to relax. Easier said that done, I realize. ;)

Try thinking, 'OK, this is just a single flip. It could be way harder...like a double flip!' LOL, sounds silly, but that's what I think when it comes to working on my doubles. I just think, 'It's just a double. There are skaters out there working on triples.' Puts things right into perspective, LOL! :D

Try to remind yourself of how far you've come. Remember when tackling a half flip was tricky? Now it's probably no biggie. The same will happen with the single flip over time.

I remember being 8 years old and terrified of doing a waltz jump from back crossovers. It finally took my coach insisting that I fall (and me discovering that I was still alive with no bones sticking through my skin) that I got over that fear. Of course, I was just a kid then, but looking back, it just seemed so silly at the time.

Is the fear of falling and getting hurt holding you back?

[Thin-Ice]

Flo has good advice. And as long as your coach says your set-up is fine.. and you feel comfortable jumping, tell yourself all you have to do is do the set-up the way you've been doing it, then allow yourself to land two-footed. If you say you MAY do it that way, you'll relax a bit and probably will land it on one-foot anyway.

There's a big difference between landing a toe loop and flip/toe loop. Good for you for taking this big step up!

Good luck!

[sk8tegirl06]

You are not alone. I'm in the same boat only with loops. My 1st competition is a week from tomorrow. My coach decided I needed a loop in my program, despite the fact I cannot/will not (still trying to figure out which it is) do one away from the wall. For me I think it is a bit of comfort know I can still catch myself. I wouldn't think the falling/getting hurt would my problem because in our show number we had to do a sit spin and fall into a butt spin. I could not bring myself to do it right. I kept falling on my tailbone and it hurt. But I think the prospect of falling on my hands is what is holding me back. The loop is purposely placed at a point where I don't have much speed so I don't psych myself out. But it has never been better than 2 footed. So we shall see if I can pull it together in the next week. But like previous posters said, we are on skinny little blades and willing to jump, rotate, land, and look good doing it. I tend to practice at public sessions (more for money reasons), but the general public has enough trouble standing up and doing laps. We are light years ahead of most people's skating skills. The little girls all come up, "are you a skater?" They think the world of you, they don't care that you can't land a flip. But I understand your frustrations, I am a bit of a perfectionist as well, and work an element to the point of not being able to do it anymore. Don't forget the flip combo, but focus on other elements for most of your practice time. Go back later and see if it helps.

[patatty]

One thing you might try is to change its location in the program, or if you can't move it, change the entrance, such as using a mohawk entrance if you usually do it with a 3-turn. I tend to choke on various items in my programs at different times, and sometimes the novelty of moving it or changing the entrance snaps me out of the paralysis. I had such a hang-up with my camel spin last year, and changing the entrance to an inside 3-turn instead of back crossovers worked. This year, it was the axel, and we moved it a week before the comp to a different spot, and I landed it!

Another thing to think about is that this jump, unlike the toe loop or salchow, doesn't just happen. You have to really pull in and go for it. Try doing a program run-through where your only goal is to land that jump, no matter what. (I sometimes tell myself "I'm going to do this even if it kills me")
I have to force my entire mind/body to do my lutz-loop combo in my program because I have a tough entrance to it, and I pretty much have to scream at myself to go for it when it comes up, or else it just fails (like it did in my comp last month, because my mind wandered right before it, and next thing I knew, my rear end was landing on the ice).

You're not alone with this issue - I think it hits most of us at least some of the time. Good luck.

[Skating Jessica]

Try doing a program run-through where your only goal is to land that jump, no matter what. (I sometimes tell myself "I'm going to do this even if it kills me")

My coach made me do this before testing (and passing!) my Intermediate freestyle back in April. I was having such a huge mental hang-up with my double sal and double sal-toe that I would land nearly everyone outside the program, but as soon as the music came on and I tried to do them in my program, I'd completely freak and pop or two-foot the jump. If we played "test program" where we'd mimic the test atmosphere, I'd do the exact same thing on my reskates. So frustrating!

What helped was focusing on just the parts of the program containing the double sals. My coach would have me skate that part of the program--to the music--until I landed 'em clean. Like patatty said, the only thing my coach had me focus on was landing those jumps.

The day of my test, I lost control on the first double sal, but got it on one foot. I nailed the second double sal, which I knew I had to do if I wanted any chance of getting a reskate on the double sal-toe. Well, as luck would have it, the judges gave me a reskate. Before reskating (without a warm-up; my coach and I decided I was just going for it), my coach said told me that no matter what I had to commit to landing the jump, even if it meant falling, as it shows I at least had the intention of landing the jump rather than playing it safe and popping/two-footing.

As I skated into my double sal-toe, I knew that this was it: do or do not; there is no try. And, what do you know...I nailed it and passed! :mrgreen:

So, based on personal experience, I definitely agree with patatty's suggestion of making your goal in at least a few of your run-throughs just to land the jump.

[fsk8r]

Thanks for all that advice.

I'm not sure if this is falling issue as I don't tend to fall very often. Most of the falls I do have are generally over silly little things, like skating into a cone backwards, or tripping over a toe pick. But other than always bruising the same bit of knee every time, I don't really care about them. When I fell on a spin the other week I was delighted because it was my first real proper skating fall (coach thought I was mad. Dance coach was delighted as she'd seen me save a really screwed up back 3 the lesson before and wrench my back in the process).

I think the two-footing issues are to do with speed and not being quite "right" on the setup. But I don't know whats "wrong", probably just that I'm barrelling down the ice at my equivalent of 70miles an hour and I only want to be doing about 20! And I think there's a lot to be said about this being the hardest thing I'm doing. Coach joked about adding a double axle into it, but given that I've not even got as far as attempting an axle, I think we both realise that she's joking. But she knows that this is a mental issue about it being "hard". She keeps reminding me that before I had the flip I used to freak out about having a loop off a spiral in it, and now I don't even notice that bit. To me though, the loop was always easier as I could do a two-footed breaking maneouver before hitting the 3turn so could control the speed. I've not worked that bit out yet for the flip!

I like the idea of trying a different approach to the jump. Jumping is still a bit of a novelty to me, and I think of a jump as being approach, jump and landing. So to me a loop jump always has a inside 3 to start it, and there's this other thing called a loop as well which you do from back crosses. I've only ever done a flip from a 3-turn, so maybe I need to try the mohawk entrance to give myself something different to worry about. Because the numerous run throughs of my step sequence into flip ain't been helping, as I just make myself more frustrated and then I'm only ever going to two foot the jump. (I know I need to relax, but it's just soooo hard sometimes).

But I'm really pleased to know that this happens to other people. It's comforting to know that everyone has their own nemesis and that it can be overcome.

[WhiteBoots30]

[QUOTE=fsk8r;368991] And I think there's a lot to be said about this being the hardest thing I'm doing. Coach joked about adding a double axle into it, but given that I've not even got as far as attempting an axle, I think we both realise that she's joking. But she knows that this is a mental issue about it being "hard". QUOTE]

I used to have the same problems with lutzes in my programs. Even though I could do lutzes consistently when my music was not playing, in fact they were my favourite jump, as soon as I tried one in my program I landed on 2 feet. Now I have an axel in my program the same thing happens. It is only semi consistent anyway but I have only landed it once ever to my music - and then was so excited I couldn't continue! However, I now always land the lutz loop which is just before it in the program! I suggested to my coach as a joke that we add a double salchow to the program - I'm not allowed a double at my level but can't actually land it anyway! I just wonder whether it would enable me to land the axel as it would no longer be the hardest element.

[looplover]

Are you me?? :)

I don't have a lot of advice since I'm still battling it, just sympathy...but I know the last time I faced this I did a ton of off ice flips for muscle memory and did a bunch of off ice ones just before the competition as well (that was a year ago). I managed to get both of them in that competition and one was really good, so maybe you can as well!

[fsk8r]

Are you me?? :)

I don't have a lot of advice since I'm still battling it, just sympathy...but I know the last time I faced this I did a ton of off ice flips for muscle memory and did a bunch of off ice ones just before the competition as well (that was a year ago). I managed to get both of them in that competition and one was really good, so maybe you can as well!

How do you do them off-ice? I've not worked out how to put the toe in off-ice? I know I had to do my rhythm blues a few thousand times around the garden before the test to make sure I could do the dance in time. So it might help with flips as well.

[looplover]

How do you do them off-ice? I've not worked out how to put the toe in off-ice? I know I had to do my rhythm blues a few thousand times around the garden before the test to make sure I could do the dance in time. So it might help with flips as well.

One of my issues with the flip is that I don't transfer my weight onto the toe pick (I think I do this because I'm resisting it - grr, toe jumps).

So on my carpet I do the three turn, then toe in as much as I can on a carpet, ha...easily transfer my weight and jump as normally. I do it with guards on before getting on the ice as well (or did yesterday). It helps if that's your issue.

[doubletoe]

If it's a technique thing, then it can be fixed by adjusting the takeoff edge and body position. Either try it from a mohawk, or focus more on aiming the 3-turn to 1:00 instead of 12:00 (this has always fixed it for me), arching your back and getting deep knee bend as you reach back to pick.

But if it's just a mental thing that happens when you leave the ice, give yourself a cue word that walks you through what you're supposed to be doing during that moment in the air. That's the only thing that has ever helped me complete a jump I was afraid of. For example, my air time cue word for the axel is "shin." It reminds me to bring the calf of my free leg in toward the shin of my landing leg once I'm up in the air. For a single flip, you'll want a more open "h" position, with the free foot lined up directly in front of the shin of your landing leg but not touching it, so whatever cue word tells you to get into that position and keep your shoulders and hips square might be a good one.

Meanwhile, my coach's mantra is, "Never have your most difficult jump in your program." I think he's right. Psychologically, you think it's difficult so you wig out over it. Maybe start working on the lutz? :)

[Skating Jessica]

Meanwhile, my coach's mantra is, "Never have your most difficult jump in your program." I think he's right. Psychologically, you think it's difficult so you wig out over it. Maybe start working on the lutz? :)

Although this tactic doesn't necessarily work if the jump, which may happen to be your most difficult, is required for a test program, for instance.

[fsk8r]

I used to have the same problems with lutzes in my programs. Even though I could do lutzes consistently when my music was not playing, in fact they were my favourite jump, as soon as I tried one in my program I landed on 2 feet. Now I have an axel in my program the same thing happens. It is only semi consistent anyway but I have only landed it once ever to my music - and then was so excited I couldn't continue! However, I now always land the lutz loop which is just before it in the program! I suggested to my coach as a joke that we add a double salchow to the program - I'm not allowed a double at my level but can't actually land it anyway! I just wonder whether it would enable me to land the axel as it would no longer be the hardest element.

Shame my lutz isn't good enough for unveiling on any program as I only landed it at zero speed at new year. But I suppose the good thing is that the next program, the flip will be the easy bit as I start to battle with the lutz.

[fsk8r]

If it's a technique thing, then it can be fixed by adjusting the takeoff edge and body position. Either try it from a mohawk, or focus more on aiming the 3-turn to 1:00 instead of 12:00 (this has always fixed it for me), arching your back and getting deep knee bend as you reach back to pick.

But if it's just a mental thing that happens when you leave the ice, give yourself a cue word that walks you through what you're supposed to be doing during that moment in the air. That's the only thing that has ever helped me complete a jump I was afraid of. For example, my air time cue word for the axel is "shin." It reminds me to bring the calf of my free leg in toward the shin of my landing leg once I'm up in the air. For a single flip, you'll want a more open "h" position, with the free foot lined up directly in front of the shin of your landing leg but not touching it, so whatever cue word tells you to get into that position and keep your shoulders and hips square might be a good one.

Meanwhile, my coach's mantra is, "Never have your most difficult jump in your program." I think he's right. Psychologically, you think it's difficult so you wig out over it. Maybe start working on the lutz? :)

when you say 1 o'clock are you speaking as a CW or CCW? I'm a CW skater, so have to double check that I'm thinking of the right one.

The cue word is a good idea as I'm thinking the issue might be that I'm not lifting the free leg enough and so it's able to hit the ice early, whereas if I lift it higher then it can't help but avoid two-footing, so I'll try to remind myself to actually lift the leg higher.

[doubletoe]

when you say 1 o'clock are you speaking as a CW or CCW? I'm a CW skater, so have to double check that I'm thinking of the right one.

The cue word is a good idea as I'm thinking the issue might be that I'm not lifting the free leg enough and so it's able to hit the ice early, whereas if I lift it higher then it can't help but avoid two-footing, so I'll try to remind myself to actually lift the leg higher.

Oops! Sorry. Standing on a line at 6:00 and facing 12:00, aim the flip 3-turn entrance at 1:00 if you rotate CCW or at 11:00 if you rotate CW. Try to make the whole thing flat and straight, even on the 3-turn exit. If you look at your marks on the ice afterwards, they should never cross the line until the landing edge. The same tip works for the toeloop.
I didn't realize your free foot was touching down on landing. In order to keep your weight over the landing side, it should definitely help to lift the thigh of the free leg a little more. A strong, arched back (squeeze shoulder blades together) on the reach back and pick & pull should also help keep you over the landing side.

[looplover]

The cue word is a good idea as I'm thinking the issue might be that I'm not lifting the free leg enough and so it's able to hit the ice early, whereas if I lift it higher then it can't help but avoid two-footing, so I'll try to remind myself to actually lift the leg higher.

That really could be it. That seems to be the problem with me as well!

[fsk8r]

Oops! Sorry. Standing on a line at 6:00 and facing 12:00, aim the flip 3-turn entrance at 1:00 if you rotate CCW or at 11:00 if you rotate CW. Try to make the whole thing flat and straight, even on the 3-turn exit. If you look at your marks on the ice afterwards, they should never cross the line until the landing edge. The same tip works for the toeloop.
I didn't realize your free foot was touching down on landing. In order to keep your weight over the landing side, it should definitely help to lift the thigh of the free leg a little more. A strong, arched back (squeeze shoulder blades together) on the reach back and pick & pull should also help keep you over the landing side.

Why does everything in skating come down to keeping your weight over the skating foot? LOL...
Thanks for all the tips. Last proper practice before the competition on Thursday today (final run through Wednesday morning in a panic before work), so I'm going to give it all a try. Beat myself with a stick when I don't land it, make it twice as hard by doing it from a mohawk, do lutzes to remind myself it's a piddly little flip, and in general just remember that I can do this! (Do I sound determined?). I'll let you all know how I get on. I just have to keep thinking, 3-turn, toe, lift, (pray like hell), land.

Thanks everyone....

[kander]

Scott Hamilton has said the secret is to "skate dumb". Personally, I think this is the wrong approach if things aren't going right.

Golf and skating are probably the two most frustrating sports in terms of consistency. One day you're Dorothy Hamil, and the next day you're Nivek Nosredna. Too bad they don't have muligans in figure skating. Wait, I think they do.

[fsk8r]

Ok it worked!!!! I landed loads of flips. I muffed one because I freaked out at a kid getting close as I started to 3turn and one on a mohawk (but I don't count the mohawk one as that's me playing with a brand new approach).
And a hung on to some pretty close landings, which was probably more down to determination than technique. (and I've never had to hang on to a landing ever, I either two foot or I land it).

What I learnt was - one it was all down to lifting the free leg and making sure it didn't have time to hit the ice, and two there's a lot more time when I do it at speed (or my speed) than I think. I also must not worry about the toe-loop after the flip. I think I normally panic about the toe-loop (I HATE toe-loops but can do them OK), and so don't actually do the flip right. if I worry about the flip and land that, then there isn't a problem with jabbing the toe in and jumping again.

Was it all mental? - I think the frustration wasn't helping and being determined to do it right did help. But I think most of it was down to not lifting the foot right.
Not I just have to hope that I get a good practice on Wednesday and can hang onto the flip long enough to skate the comp on Thursday. But at least I'm now feeling confident that I can do it.

So thank you all very much. If only for giving me somewhere to vent and collect ideas. I do like the whole talking yourself through the thing approach. I did that for the entire step sequence and the jump and it works. it keeps me focussed on what I'm doing now and not what I'm doing next.

[techskater]

If it's an issue with doing combinations, my coach ALWAYS talks about first jump first and second jump second meaning you can't focus on the first jump properly if you are already thinking about having to do the second jump.

Glad to hear that it sounds as if you have this sorted out.

[Mrs Redboots]

Now I have an axel in my program the same thing happens. Ooooh, I can't wait to see that!!! We aren't competing on Thursday this year, only Friday, but are coming to watch (and help, if there is a shortage of helpers). So we will be cheering your axel madly, and I'm quite sure you'll land it.

Shame my lutz isn't good enough for unveiling on any program as I only landed it at zero speed at new year. But I suppose the good thing is that the next program, the flip will be the easy bit as I start to battle with the lutz.Let's hope so, although it's not always the case - my Husband is struggling with his even more than he was last year! That's not why he's not competing on Thursday, though - more to do with the fact that the class he wanted to do requires a step sequence rather than a spiral sequence, and he has a spiral sequence this year (which, brag, brag, he got a positive GOE on in France!!!!! Mind you, half his elements didn't get scored, but even still!), so..... and we haven't had time to organise an entry for the Redman Cup.

[fsk8r]

[QUOTE=techskater;369050]If it's an issue with doing combinations, my coach ALWAYS talks about first jump first and second jump second meaning you can't focus on the first jump properly if you are already thinking about having to do the second jump.
[QUOTE]

That's great advice. I hadn't realised I'd been doing it until I focussed on the first jump. But the only caveat I'd put on it, is that I have to do a waltz jump knowing that there's a loop after it to get my free leg in the right place otherwise I can't manage to change position after I've landed.

[techskater]

Focusing on the wrong jump in the combo can be jump combo specific. I tend to have more issues the more difficult the first jump is in the combo like double sal-toe or double sal-loop because I momentarily think of the second jump as I take off for the first and the first one's take off includes my skating arm around my back instead of in front.

[DaisySkate♥]

Ive Heard From Many People That In Order To Learn Something You Need To Repeat It 39 Times, After That The Technique Is In Your Head And The Only Thing That Can Affect It Is Your Mentality.

I Had A Similar Problem With Doing My Double Salchow In My Program, Doing It With The Music Was Always A Disaster! But Since Putting A Harder Jump (Double Loop) In The Program Too Ive Stopped Thinking About The Sal And I Land It Every Time With The Music =D

Good Luck With Your Competition!

[Skating Jessica]

Ive Heard From Many People That In Order To Learn Something You Need To Repeat It 39 Times, After That The Technique Is In Your Head And The Only Thing That Can Affect It Is Your Mentality.

Interesting. I was always told that "muscle memory", which is what you seem to be talking about, takes 27 days to develop. In other words, to physically train or accustom your body and muscles to master a new technique.

[flo]

fsk8er - congrats!!!!!

Remember that when the entrance is slower, the timing if the jump is quicker. This may help when you don't do them, or other jumps at speed.

Way to go!!!!

[fsk8r]

fsk8er - congrats!!!!!

Remember that when the entrance is slower, the timing if the jump is quicker. This may help when you don't do them, or other jumps at speed.

Way to go!!!!

Thanks. Let's just hope that I don't manage to talk myself into a tizz on Wednesday and can a) have a good last minute run through and land the jump (which will be only the second time ever with the music if I do) and b) can actually pull it off for the comp on Thursday.
But to prevent any possible regression, I'm keeping off the ice between now and Wednesday. I don't want any bad muscle memory to creep back in. There's sometimes too much skating. (and I never thought I'd say that).

Interesting that people say that it takes about a month for muscle memory to sink in. I've never really thought about it. I do find that there are some things that you're just ready to learn. I was chuffed when I learnt to do a bracket for the first time last week. Only it wasn't difficult. When I'd tried to teach myself a couple of years ago, I nearly killed myself and decided I'd just wait until it cropped up in a lesson. It did and two years later, the body was ready to learn it as I've got a lot better blade control than I did two years ago. I don't think it's something I'm going to forget now I've done it, but I wouldn't describe it as muscle memory. I wonder what constitues something which needs to go into muscle memory and what doesn't?

[singerskates]

Why is it that when you get an injury that keeps you off of the ice for a year or so and then new boots and blades, you seem to loose everything you had before the injury, it takes forever to gain things back again? It's been two years since I start back from my injury that knocked me off of the ice and competing for a year and I'm still working on getting my camel, backspin, flip and lutz back. I actually had to start back from scratch because the injuries I had made me loose my balance, strength and any skating skills I had. I had one rotation of the one and half rotations of an Axel and was only a quarter turn short on rotation of my 2 Sachow before getting injured. If I hadn't gotten injured so badly back in 2005, I'd have my Senior Bronze Freeskate passed and be competing in Adult Gold by now.

Why am I so chicken to go for things since the injury?

[fsk8r]

Definitely found the flip again. Had a last minute lesson before the comp tomorrow and not only did I land them on the warm up segment, I managed to land it with the music. I think that's the second time ever, but at least I feel better about tomorrow.
Shame my biggest worry now is how to warm up in a strange rink before the official warm up ice. I don't think panic and nerves is what my coach meant when she said that she'd leave the warming up bit to me as she's not going to get there early enough.
Oh well, if I skate a clean programme tomorrow I can only be happy.

[Rusty Blades]

Why is it that when you get an injury that keeps you off of the ice for a year or so and then new boots and blades, you seem to loose everything you had before the injury, it takes forever to gain things back again?

Geez, it doesn't take THAT much for me to loose everything! I can loose it over night! 8O

[doubletoe]

Oh well, if I skate a clean programme tomorrow I can only be happy.

Well. . . HOW DID IT GO?! :D

[fsk8r]

Well. . . HOW DID IT GO?! :D

3rd Place! Really really pleased. I landed the blimming jump, although by yesterday it wasn't a problem. Only got jelly legs on the warm up and was fine for the performance. Messed up my waltz-loop combo and the transition into it, but don't really know why. (Think I was a bit off balance and I've never been very good at that combo and is normally the hardest element - bar flip freak out sessions).
Anyway, I managed to demonstrate that the presentation mark is as important as the technical mark, because the girl who came 4th had the harder programme. I had an easier one, which I could skate well (even if I hate all the arm waggling!)
Coach now wants to work on my spins as apparently I need to learn how to do a camel and she'd like a combo spin for next time. And she's going to make the footwork harder (which I really don't mind as I've done so many moves tests which I really should use).
Anyway think it did loads for my confidence as I was being a bit hard on myself after my last test session as I came away feeling really negative even though I'd passed. (Probably how I got into the mental block with the flip in the first place). I've now learnt that I can actually skate nicely. (Never knew that before and wouldn't ever believe a coach on that one). I just need to skate better.
Really determined to conquer my spin nemesis now.
Oh and the really really strange bit - I wasn't completely horrified by the video of it. Then again, I don't think the skater looks like me!

So really big thank you to everyone for helping me get through the mental block. One more comp in just over a week and then I can get back to proper practice for a while. Need some downtime from competitions and tests now. I think I've over done it so far this year (4 tests and 2 comps in 6 months!).