Cost of coaching at seminars, competitions etc.

[Virtualsk8r]

I am interested to see what skaters/parents expect to pay for their coach(es) to attend competitions, seminars etc. both in town and away. I am sure the cost varies from country to country, and club to club.

For example, if your competitive skater were invited to attend a seminar with their coach, would parents expect to pick up the cost for the coaches accomodations, travel expenses, meals and lesson time?

Would coaches out there expect to charge for their expenses or absorb them as a business expensive? I've seen both flat rate fees for competitions and seminars, and actual expenses charged.

[Skating Jessica]

I give two options for in-town competitions, tests, etc.
1. $25/day per skater
2. $10/event per skater

For out-of-town competitions, tests, etc. I have the skaters pick one of the two above options individually, but I also take into account gas and hotel expenses, which I divide among each skater. So, for instance, if I spent $100 on hotel and gas (LOL, yeah right!) and had 5 skaters going to an out-of-town seminar, each skater would pay $20 plus right there. Then their $25/day or $10/event option, whichever they chose, would be tacked on to the $20.

These fees are explained in my newsletter, which I give to each skater/parent so that they know what to expect and aren't hit with any unexpected fees. Parents should have a thorough understanding of what it will cost for them to have their child's take the skater to a competition, test, whatever and if there are any special charges for out-of-town, especially if the skater is, like you said, "invited." That term can mean two different things to skaters and parents and coaches. Coaches may see it as an opportunity for a skater to attend whereas some parents and skaters may assume the invitation equals a free ride. Definitely hash it out before you agree to attend.

[jskater49]

Our coach charges $25 per event. My daughter is just starting and charges $15 per event, which is what her coach advised her to charge. This includes coaching during practice. We had another coach who would charge per event plus her standard per hour fee during practice (split if there were other students on that practice session) Expenses, plus her loss of income while she's gone are split among the number of skaters she has at the competition.

j

[sk8lady]

The only out of town competition I went to with my coach, she charged 1 hour of her hourly rate plus shared expenses with 5 other students. I think it came to a little over $100. Not sure but I think I was only in one event that year.

I took three of my own students to a Basic Skills competition. I was skating in the open division so I warned them that I would usually charge expenses but would not for this competition as I was going anyway.

I like the idea of a newsletter.

[slusher]

For example, if your competitive skater were invited to attend a seminar with their coach, would parents expect to pick up the cost for the coaches accomodations, travel expenses, meals and lesson time?
.

Wow, that's a very good question. Seminars, if they're the kind where the skaters are invited are almost mandatory for the coach to attend too. It says coaches are Invited, as if it's optional, but that means that for their own careers, they need to be seen. In those situations and we've had them, there has never been a charge from our coach. We all drive together and they're mostly a one day thing and we try not to have to stay over. There are some seminars that maybe a coach doesn't need to go to, they are open invitation and the last one we went to there were 75 skaters so for the few things that were said specifically to our skaters, we were able to relay that back to the coach.

But, all that said, I know coaches who would put their costs into their skaters bills, one way or another.

[Virtualsk8r]

I like the idea of a newsletter - if the parents will actually read it.

What about a seminar quite a distance away and over the course of a few days where the elite skaters are strongly recommended to bring their coaches? Would you expect to pay their expenses (especially with the high cost of gas these days and hotel bills in the summer season).

What would you expect to charge for transportation if your sole purpose for driving, flying, etc to the event was to coach that one skater?

[ice_godess]

If you were working for a company on an expense account, what would be considered costs to you? My feeling is that you shouldn't have to absorb too much of the cost for a skater because it is your living. Parents tend to take advantage of coaches and if they can find a way of getting more without paying for it - they will.

Actual costs are gas, tolls, train fare, parking at airport, (not speeding tickets lol) hotel rooms (not room service or alcohol) taxes, (not long distance calls home although some could argue that) a per diem for meals.

[sk8tmum]

Pro-rata expenses plus billed for a lesson rate. Works for me; coach shouldn't be out of pocket for taking skaters to a competition. An intelligent coach tries to maximize the number of skaters at each competition to minimize the per skater expenses ...

Not billing for expenses can bankrupt a coach if they don't cover the expenses somehow, if you think about it ... because the coach loses the fees they would have for coaching if they weren't out of town, plus hotel, travel, etc that wouldn't have been incurred otherwise. Coaches are professionals, after all, and this is their income ...

If they bump their coaching billing rate, they may lose skaters, and it wouldn't be fair to those skaters who don't do competitions, because they are subsidizing, in effect, those who do.

Caveat: parents should check with a coach on what they consider to be "reasonable" expenses. Some coaches stay in $250/night hotels and eat at real restaurants; some coaches stay in $75/night motels and eat economically. Makes a huge difference to the expenses. Discussing it upfront means a reduction in confusion when the bill arrives ...

[sk8tmum]

For example, if your competitive skater were invited to attend a seminar with their coach, would parents expect to pick up the cost for the coaches accomodations, travel expenses, meals and lesson time?

Depends. Sometimes the organization hosting the seminar gives expense coverage to the coach ... but, you know? If I'm pulling my coach with my kid to a seminar, and taking them away from their other skaters, having them incur hotels and meals ... then, I should be covering the cost. That's all part of the deal, isn't it, that parents are responsible for financing the training, growth and development of their kid? Now, if the coach is attending the seminar as a 'coach' and doing workshops, or accruing other professional benefit, then, that would be a different matter, but, if they are there just for my kid ...

[Rusty Blades]

I have earned my money in the business world for many decades and I treat my coach's expenses as I would a contract worker. I pick up my portion of all expenses (airfare, hotel, meals, etc.) plus her normal rate for the hours she spends with me at practice and for the event(s). If she has 2 skaters at the event, I pick up 50%. I know that when she is at an event with me, she is loosing income from her "day job" and from coaching she could be doing at home so I try to be generous. I also pay a "bonus" after each competition and at end-of-season. I know coaches don't make much money (in relation to the hours invested) so I try to be generous.

[Skittl1321]

Caveat: parents should check with a coach on what they consider to be "reasonable" expenses. Some coaches stay in $250/night hotels and eat at real restaurants; some coaches stay in $75/night motels and eat economically. Makes a huge difference to the expenses. Discussing it upfront means a reduction in confusion when the bill arrives ...

So what are you to do if you don't agree on "reasonable"?

I know that one of the high level coaches at our rink actually carpools with and shares rooms with the skater/parents to reduce costs.

I haven't brought a coach to a competition, so I don't know of the fee. Come to think of it- our synchro coach didn't charge us anything- I don't know if the rink paid her, but somehow I doubt it... For test sessions my former coach charged $30, which was twice my lesson rate. He was there most of the day, but had many many other skaters testing. I saw him for maybe 2 minutes before and after the test and the 10 minutes during the test. If every skater got that level of attention, it was a very profitable day for him.

[Skating Jessica]

Come to think of it- our synchro coach didn't charge us anything- I don't know if the rink paid her, but somehow I doubt it...

I know that the synchro coaches at my rink share a "team" credit card, which is in the name of the organization, or rather the synchro team. The coaches are permitted to charge expenses such as their and the skaters' hotel rooms and the team dinner, not personal purchases, room service, snacks, or the like; however, I'm not sure who actually pays the credit card bill when it comes. I believe money comes from the team fund, which comes from fundraisers that the team's skaters and their parents participated in. This money goes toward any "team" expenses, like the team dinner, for instance.

[Virtualsk8r]

:roll: I gave parents a breakdown of costs (gas and hotel only - no lesson fees yet or meals etc.) for a mandatory team seminar. Guess what the response was??????? When faced with an estimated $600 bill -- all of a sudden their dd can manage on her own. Who did they think was going to pay for the coaches expenses????
Thanks for all the advice.......I can't afford to absorb that sort of cost, especially from parents who both make way more $$ than I do........

[slusher]

The only risk, and I thought of this the other day but forgot what thread this was, is that if your skater and parents are at a seminar without you, they have the opportunity to meet other parents and be introduced to their coaches. I'd remembered that's how one of our local skaters changed coaches, they went to an event, and came home with a new coach. The parents were not solicited, but, given the opportunity to see what was out there, they jumped.

[Virtualsk8r]

Thanks, Slusher.....I thought of that this morning, but the reality is if parents decide for whatever reason to switch - they will switch. I've had a couple of parents get caught up in the soliciting parents in the stands. One skater went through three coaches in less than six months - and then quit. Another lasted the season with the new coach (and paid for it dearly $$) - then quit, and the third is still with the soliciting coach.

The parents of the skater in question - have had a sweet ride with me for many, many years. I've given more than my fair share of extra free lesson time to get the child where she needs to be, and never charged my full expenses at a competition or seminar before. My husband says he works too hard to support someone else's child - especially when both parents work (and the husband tells me they have no mortgage - not to worry about $$).

The child never would have made it to nationals without me giving so much of myself and also at the expense of paying as much attention to some of my other skaters. It's time for a change. If they decide to switch - let them.
The seminar is a sectional one so skaters, coaches and parents come from a number of regions and I doubt the parents are willing to move 500 miles to start with a new coach. Few coaches from my area will be there.

If the parents choose to send their skater solo again to a seminar (where I really need to be there - this one I have been to many times before with other skaters and the format is usually the same, so I don't think I will be missing much) - then that will be the end of the relationship.

Frankly, I have so much trouble getting these parents to 'get with the program' and the skater thinks she is training but misses practice often (dad forgot to pick her up, soccer practice too soon after skating, big project due tomorrow, mom needed a hair cut (my favorite!!) etc.....that I really don't see the child continuing very long in high school. Talent and ability is there - not great but at a respectable level at this point - but without total commitment there will be no sense in spending the $$ required .

Thanks for letting me vent - and all the good advice. I appreciate the input!:D

[figure8]

I feel that the coach should not be out of pocket by too much but also should not charge excessive fees.

I don't pay my son's hockey coach anything. He doesn't get a paycheck from anyone for coaching. I pay my fee at the beginning of the year and thats it.

If the skater gets to the national level and he/she is one of the few skaters that the coach has advancing to that level, should the parent foot the entire bill for all the coach's expenses as well as a coaching fee and lost lessens at home? what do skaters like Myrian Samson get charged by their coach? She is not the national champion but still on the national team? I'm curious because I have heard stories of skaters getting bills for $2000plus after a national competition (having paid the coach's flight and hotel bills already). It seems very unrealistic to me.

[sk8lady]

I feel that the coach should not be out of pocket by too much but also should not charge excessive fees.

I don't pay my son's hockey coach anything. He doesn't get a paycheck from anyone for coaching. I pay my fee at the beginning of the year and thats it.



Are you really trying to compare your son's hockey coach to a figure skating coach giving private lessons?
If your son is a USA hockey youth player, his coaches are probably not professionals and there are few, if any, costs associated with coaching, other than the same costs all the other hockey parents are paying. Virtually all USA hockey coaches are volunteers and can't be expected (by reasonable people) to be professionals. The USA hockey certifications for coaching do not even require that a coach be able to skate. Therefore, the quality of coaching varies enormously--my son has had coaches who could not skate backwards. Most importantly, your son's coach is, I assume, coaching a whole team, not just your son.

[Virtualsk8r]

Figure8 - Figure skating coaches are paid professionals, while amateur hockey coaches are not. If your son plays for his local team and is coached by an amateur -that coach has a day job as well. Sort of like the program assistants or LTS low level coaches that help out on LTS sessions.

If your son plays for a higher level hockey team, then the coaches do get compensated and their expenses are paid. One of my student's father is a goalie coach for a team where players are regularly drafted to NHL farm teams -- he gets paid, the players get paid (living allowance, performance allowance, scholarships) and the player pay nothing for their ice or coaching.

That said - there is a difference between a skater that makes it to nationals and finishes out of the top ten -- and the skater who wins or is in the top five. There is some funding for top 10 places at nationals - decreasing by placing, which is supposed to go towards training. National team or envelope skaters do get some financial assistance and freebies from sponsors (if they have some) or benefits like ice from their rinks, etc. Some clubs give coaches or skaters a financial gift to offset expenses at regionals, sectionals or nationals. Some sections have financial incentives for medals, placings and earning a spot to compete at nationals.

Skaters like Myriam Samson have some funding. The Quebec government is extremely supportive of skating and ice is more than reasonable. Plus there are lotteries etc that help cover costs. She probably has sponsorship from local merchants - some skaters get cars and gas, others get free housing etc. The higher up you get - the more it costs but the more chances for funding.

Skaters like Kimmie Meisner or Emily Hughes - both did not live up to their medal potential last season - will not receive the same team funding they did previously. But then, they have sponsors that can get tax breaks for supporting them. However, Lori Nichol or David Wilson will still charge them a huge sum of money to do their choreography -- and make THEM fly to Toronto for a week in a hotel, plus ice and meals -- to get the job done. Choreographers don't hesitate to charge the moon these days,. plus expenses....so why should the poor coach who spends every day with the skater be forced to finance the skater's career anymore than they have with the extra lesson time etc. that is never billed.

Frank Carroll once said at a seminar -and I paraphrase - get a contract with a percentage of winnings from your skater when they are small because when they earn all the money that you gave them the skills for - the skater will be rich and the coach will be back in the rink still working their tails off.
He also said bill for everything, because parents and skaters have short memories - they will forget all the good stuff you did for them - and forget loyality if something better comes up.

[Virtualsk8r]

Figure 8 - there is some truth in your $2000 story. National level and international level coaches do charge high fees for them to be at certain competitions. One coach I know charged a preliminary skater $1000.00 to travel to a competition on a weekend. Another skater assigned to an international junior level competition - received a $2,000 bill ( the skating association paid for the airfare and hotel that time) - for the week away.
You can bet the skaters we see on TV - all have coaches that are well-paid by either the skating association (Korea, Japan, Brazil, Russia, Netherlands, Sweden, and I think France -- there are lots more) or they are paid by the skater ( USA, Canada, for example).

It's hard for individuals to compete with skaters from nations that treat their skaters like royality. Have you ever seen the entourage that comes with the Japanese skaters when they get their choreography done??? A

[figure8]

You misunderstood me. I was not suggesting that skating coaches were the same as hockey coaches. I have a competitive skater (not nearly at national level) as well as a hockey player so I know the difference. We have been to tournaments for hockey over the season that required hotel stays etc. The coach does not have a kid on the team and none of the parents were required to pay any of is expenses. The coach was out of pocket and happy to do it, or so it seemed.

I am just curious about how much a coach at the national (non-funded) level might charge for a national competition thats all. I wasn't asking about skater funding. Sorry for the confusion and my apologies for the hockey/skating comparison. I know that skating is a far more expensive sport and un-like hockey you don't get a free ride when you are id'd as having talent.

[Virtualsk8r]

No problem! There is a big mystery in the sport as to what is charged by high level or low level coaches -- and not charged. I just know what I have paid to my coaches, and what I charge my skaters plus whatever advice I have been given by mentor or fellow coaches. It's the same with coaching fees. There are Canadian skaters coaching in the US and charging $100-$120 an hour for private lessons while back home they would not even be able to teach because they have no certification (not to mention the police check and insurance)......There are Level 4 coaches in Canada (the level required to coach at the Olympics since Canada has just one Level 5 coach in figure skating - Doug Leigh who got his last week)....who charge $20-30 per 15 minute lesson, and others who charge $12.00. And entry level coaches who were skaters charging $18-20 per 15 minutes. Go figure......

I do know Jeff Buttle's coach does charge his other skaters a huge sum to attend out of town or country competitions....and Jessica Dube, Bryce Davison, Cythnia Phanuef's coaches are very fair and reasonable.

[sk8tmum]

Two coaches, same level, same club. Same number of skaters at competition. Same profile parent/skater in terms of level, # of events, time away ... But ...

Cost to parent, coach #1: $67.45
Cost to parent, coach #2: $210.00

Same lesson rate. Both charging for hotel, food, gas, expenses.

Go figure.

[Virtualsk8r]

I don't charge per diem or cost of meals when away at competitions because I have to eat at home anyway.....and don't get a luxury hotel room....or charge for calls home....missed lessons. So maybe the first coach does the same thing.

However, there are coaches at my club that eat steak dinners with lots of wine at every opportunity, use room service and all the perks ......which, of course their skaters pick up the tab for.

I used to take my coach out for a decent meal once or twice during a long competition - so did other skaters and we never got a huge over the top bill.

PS: Did the first coach charge actual gas costs while the second charged the going rate for mileage? That makes a big difference. Judges and officials charge a mileage (or kilometre) rate when travelling to competitions and test days. At .38 a kilometre - thats $152.00 for 400 km. But actual gas charges could be as little as $50(small car) -$80 (suv) for the same distance. So charging mileage puts you ahead of the game -- for now!

[FlyAndCrash]

PS: Did the first coach charge actual gas costs while the second charged the going rate for mileage? That makes a big difference. Judges and officials charge a mileage (or kilometre) rate when travelling to competitions and test days. At .38 a kilometre - thats $152.00 for 400 km. But actual gas charges could be as little as $50(small car) -$80 (suv) for the same distance. So charging mileage puts you ahead of the game -- for now!

My last test session, my coach added a $2 gas/milage surcharge... it was about 100 miles total of travel divided between 5 skaters. A little overpriced, but not too bad. I on the other had, got a ride for free from another skater...