ANY ISI coaches around here

[littlekateskate]

UGH> We had a seriously bad competition today. It was awful. They set up so many kids for complete failure and humiliation.

If these kids wanted complete humiliation for not being "great" they could skate USFS. And I dont mean that in a bad way because I like USFS. But for this particular skating competition with ISI. THey were pairing kids in the same group as kids twice their age.

For I.E. A 4 year old competiting against a 9 year old. And a 7 year old against a 13 year old. Its just not right. I can see maybe a two year age gap. But why would they want to torture these poor kids who have no chance!

[Clarice]

How many skaters were in the group? Maybe they had no choice but to do it that way? I don't skate ISI, but at the USFSA competitions I've done, if skaters are grouped together with that big of an age span, it's either because there were very few skaters and they couldn't divide into different groups, or there was one skater a lot older or younger than the others and they had to put them somewhere.

Anyway, age isn't always a factor. I've been skated circles around by many an 8-year-old (although I don't compete against them!). And I've seen many awkward older beginners. I can't tell from your post who you think had the advantage - the older skater or the younger one. If they skate the same, the older skater will probably have an advantage, as they are stronger. But there's no reason to assume automatically that the younger skater isn't better.

Finally, in my opinion, there's no "failure and humiliation" involved in losing, no matter who who your competitors are. You try to skate the best you can. So do they. The judges place you. If you come last, it doesn't necessarily mean you were terrible, just that the others skated better that day. What's so humiliating about that? Skaters need to be taught to go into competitions with personal goals - that way, each experience can be successful regardless of placement. If it's all about winning, they're not going to have much fun with this sport.

[Skittl1321]

I'm so sorry the competition didn't go well. But I don't think age sets kids up for failure at all- as long as those kids were in the same level.

At our local competition I did a stroking event against a 9 year old (freestyle 3), and a 5 year old (currently freestyle 1- but started out in the tots classes I teach a year earlier). The level was "low freestyle". I placed 2nd to the 9 year old, the 5 year old was THRILLED with her 3rd place, because the event was hard- they had us skate for so long she told her mom she though she'd have to quit, but she did the whole thing, and with the big girls. There was a "basic" group of two other 5 year olds who were both alpha level. Even though they were her age, and she would have won, she didn't belong there.

My compulsory event I skated against a 13 year old. Honestly, I should have beaten her, but I had a really bad element. She won.

For the freeskate, they did seperate me into "adult", but the Freeskate 3 was a 13 year old, 2 9 year olds, and a 7 year old. The placements were 9 yrs, 7 yrs, 13 yrs, 9 yrs. Age isn't everything.

I'm guessing something else must have been going on if you're calling this "complete humiliation". What else happened at this event? Were the coaches/parents rude? Were adults/other kids unsupportive?

Placing last isn't failure, and I'm really sad that you think that. Unless the groups were huge- they probably had no choice but to combine age groups. Otherwise every skater would be against the book.

[littlekateskate]

Yes there were a number of other factors making this competitiona complete failure. Those I would rather not list as then people would know who i am if they read on her :)

And I agree loosing isnt everything. But to my very young child it was when she was forced to go out there and loose every event. She cried all night about what a horrible skater she was. And it didnt matter how many times I told her other wise or explained she wasnt as strong as the older kids. It doesnt matter to a young child. She still feels horrible.

And I am not really sure what is so wrong if there are multiple times a skater just skates against the book. Specially with ISI. Isnt that part of their whole philosophy. So kids can skate for fun and feel good about themselves. Otherwise they would just all skate together at the same level. No matter what their age.

I just know it was so bad I hope it doesnt crush my daughter permanently and keep from not skating or competing again. :(

[Kim to the Max]

While it is disappointing to not do as well, it is a learning experience...I know that it is hard for very young children to handle this, but it is a part of life...I could get into a commentary about the college students I work, and the generation of kids coming up (if you watch the news at all, you have probably heard about the Millennial Generation) with who have never "failed" at anything because of some of what you are talking about and how they literally fall apart when they get their first "C" on a paper...rather than work harder or go to talk with the professor BEFORE, they complain that the professor was not fair or they DESERVE an "A" or have their parents call who say that they are not paying tuition for "Cs"....

...what really matters is how kids use the experience of not doing as well as hoped...hopefully, you can get your daughter to a place where she can understand that it's okay as long as she skated her own personal best and maybe she will take the motivation to work harder to get as strong as they older kids who were in her group...

If nothing else, give it a few days...don't go skating, let her relax, having fun and enjoy playing outside and doing things that are not skating...you will probably find that she will want to get back to the rink...

[littlekateskate]

You know its amazing. How one minute people can be like. Oh 4 years old is still a baby they are just a toddler.

Then in the next thread. They need to suck it up and learn from the experience. And i am not speaking to anyone in particular because its never been the same posters.

But its just funny how you get so many reactions. But when its come to competition from people at the rink and some on message boards. Almost everyone has been like, she needs to not cry and be upset, she needs to work harder ect ect. Yet you then get criticized for thinking that a 4 year old should be working even has hard as she/he does.

I know now I am rambling. But making a 3 or 4 year old even understand anything is about impossible to an extent. But maybe I am just naive.

[littlekateskate]

...what really matters is how kids use the experience of not doing as well as hoped...hopefully, you can get your daughter to a place where she can understand that it's okay as long as she skated her own personal best and maybe she will take the motivation to work harder to get as strong as they older kids who were in her group...

..


And honestly I am really just asking not upset or mad. But really if my dd didnt skate her own personal best. So then what do you say to her. You could have won if you skated your personal best. Or even at your personal best it wouldnt have been good enough.

As well I cant imagine telling a young child you didnt do as well as you could have you could have done better. That seems way harsh and just wrong. lol.

Really though, just curious what you would do as a parent or coach (this is a question not to the quoted poster. How do you handle such a situation. Now if the kid was 10 I could see reasoning with them. And being, hey you didnt work as hard as I have seen in the past. But we are talking about a preschooler who is hard on themselves and devistated.

[Skittl1321]

I'm sorry your four year old is upset, but if she was skating against kids on her level "delta to delta" etc, and not in mixed level groups, then I don't see it as setting her up for humiliation and failure.

I don't think most children should be against the book. Even though ISI has a standard at which the book doesn't award first place, most kids see it as a "pity" first- they "know" they didn't compete and win it. For most kids a first against the book doesn't hold any value other than "I went and skated my best"- which you are saying that she isn't proud of herself for skating her best, she's already upset. Maybe at 4 she wouldn't make the connection there is no competition, but at 5 I've seen it.

Even ISI, where it is supposed to be fun, is a competition. ISI's philosophy is that everyone is a winner, not that everyone gets first place, ISI wants everyone to have a rewarding experience- which is why flights are kept small, so everyone gets some sort of medal- ISI doesn't consider third, fourth or fifth to be a "loser".

If you don't want a placement- then you need to skate in a show, not a competition. If your daughter is this hard on herself about it, maybe she isn't ready for competition yet? (As for your question, of what does one say when a child places badly and didn't do their best, you tell them, it's okay that you messed up X. I know that's very hard for you. But I'm proud of you for trying, and maybe next time you'll do better. If a child can't understand that then, I think they aren't ready for competition.)

[techskater]

The other thing you tell your child is what my parents always said to me when I was younger - you did your best at that moment when you went out to skate your program. Maybe it wasn't what you wanted, but I am proud of you for trying and for going out there and no matter what, I still love you. It always did the trick for me!

[littlekateskate]

- you did your best at that moment

This is quite gracefully said, i love it.

Its hard with kids. You just dont know what to say sometimes at that exact moment.

Its not her first competition and she has never had a problem before.

[Schmeck]

I'm not understanding the USFS part to the OP's post. Was it an ISI competition or a USFS Basic Skills one? If it was a USFS competition, but not a Basic Skills one, then yes, all ages are clumped together for the most part, unless it has Open levels, or a ton of skaters. If it was a small Basic Skills competition (like one just for club members) then there could be a large age range as well, but you'd know most, if not all of the skaters, and would know pretty much how you'd make out before you even skated. Larger Basic Skills competitions should have a 2-3 year range in age grouping, so 4 year olds and 6 year olds may be in the same group.

My younger daughter's dance instructor will not let kids compete until they are 7-8 years old for this very reason - at dance competitions you are either judged overall in a 3-12 year old range (with 10-12 year olds winning most categories) and then a 13-17 year old range. To be 4 years old means you'll probably sit on that stage during awards for 5-6 years without having a chance to win a category. The kids all get medals, pins, or ribbons, but the trophies and $$$ are for categories.

[hepcat]

Even ISI, where it is supposed to be fun, is a competition. ISI's philosophy is that everyone is a winner, not that everyone gets first place, ISI wants everyone to have a rewarding experience- which is why flights are kept small, so everyone gets some sort of medal- ISI doesn't consider third, fourth or fifth to be a "loser".

The way our ISI competitions work is they group them by level but they keep it to 5 kids per group, so if there's more than 5 they will group by age as well. But the point being that everyone gets a trophy or medal. If anything, ISI gets criticized for rewarding everyone! Getting out there and learning a routine, practicing it over and over, is a great achievement for a 4-year-old and it's why I like ISI for the younger ages because it acknowledges that work no matter what.

My daughter is 8 and is old enough to have a better attitude about it, but I do know what you're saying. I think you have to look at what you and her coach are saying to her about competitions - is it, "Go out there and win!" or is it "Go out there and do your best!" If she is emotionally devastated and humiliated, take a break from competing until she you feel her self-esteem can handle it.

Maybe have her participate in rink shows instead of competitions for a couple of years and try to find the fun in skating instead of being put in a pressure-cooker situation as a preschooler. Kids are like adults in that they react to stress in different ways. Me personally, the thought of performing by myself on the ice is terrifying, but my daughter gets excited on competition day and has always been that way.

[twokidsskatemom]

Yes there were a number of other factors making this competitiona complete failure. Those I would rather not list as then people would know who i am if they read on her :)

And I agree loosing isnt everything. But to my very young child it was when she was forced to go out there and loose every event. She cried all night about what a horrible skater she was. And it didnt matter how many times I told her other wise or explained she wasnt as strong as the older kids. It doesnt matter to a young child. She still feels horrible.

And I am not really sure what is so wrong if there are multiple times a skater just skates against the book. Specially with ISI. Isnt that part of their whole philosophy. So kids can skate for fun and feel good about themselves. Otherwise they would just all skate together at the same level. No matter what their age.

I just know it was so bad I hope it doesnt crush my daughter permanently and keep from not skating or competing again. :(

I have thought about not even posting, as I know you will not like my answer.
First, skating with the book is HARDER than skating with someone.You must have 80 percent to place first.I have seen lots of skaters come in second or even third with the book.
Second, maybe your child just isnt ready to compete if she cried all night about placing last.Yes. my kids have always always always been with older kids. Since age 4, always.They have placed first, last and in between.My daughter once did 8 ISI events and was last in every single event but stroking.She was 4 at the time.She said she did her best., and she never shead one tear. She had fun.I was upset, and swore I would never do ISI again.That was almost 5 years ago, and both my kids are still with older kids.And we still do ISI.We live in a small state and cannt have every skater alone, its called a comp for a reason:P
Maybe it the way we appoached it, or maybe its just them. I dont know to be honest.My son, age 7 was just with a 17 year old in comp moves program.I went though the whole thing, you know she is older, has better extention ect.He placed first.
You will find this alot, you will find sandbaggers, you will find skaters that have lessons daily while your skater has two a week. Its just a part of skating. I am proud of how my skaters act, and how they can lose with grace. I hope its a lesson they carry with them thoughout their lives.

[twokidsskatemom]

And honestly I am really just asking not upset or mad. But really if my dd didnt skate her own personal best. So then what do you say to her. You could have won if you skated your personal best. Or even at your personal best it wouldnt have been good enough.

As well I cant imagine telling a young child you didnt do as well as you could have you could have done better. That seems way harsh and just wrong. lol.

Really though, just curious what you would do as a parent or coach (this is a question not to the quoted poster. How do you handle such a situation. Now if the kid was 10 I could see reasoning with them. And being, hey you didnt work as hard as I have seen in the past. But we are talking about a preschooler who is hard on themselves and devistated.
You dont need to win, maybe that is the issue. You always need to do your best. You can no control over the other skaters.

[sk8tmum]

With the itty-bittys: we throw a party after every competition, regardless of placement. The kids celebrate some part of the competition: whether it was the best attempt ever at a certain jump, the first time something was ever landed, or just going out there and do it. It involves a cake, a lot of cheering, and lots of demonstration of how incredibly proud we are of them for taking the chance. Hugs, high-fives, and maybe something radical like a super-treat of watching a cartoon on the video. Maybe another rhinestone on the dress to mark "another competition" done.

It helps, and, funnily enough, it still helps in the pre and early teen stage when those same last place finishes still sting a bit.

[littlekateskate]

With the itty-bittys: we throw a party after every competition, regardless of placement. The kids celebrate some part of the competition: whether it was the best attempt ever at a certain jump, the first time something was ever landed, or just going out there and do it. It involves a cake, a lot of cheering, and lots of demonstration of how incredibly proud we are of them for taking the chance. Hugs, high-fives, and maybe something radical like a super-treat of watching a cartoon on the video. Maybe another rhinestone on the dress to mark "another competition" done.

It helps, and, funnily enough, it still helps in the pre and early teen stage when those same last place finishes still sting a bit.

How fun and sweet. And wow how do you guys have the energy after a comp :) lol.. The rihnestones is a cute idea! I might start doing that on her bag as rewards for accomplishments! How fun! nothing better then bling!

[Clarice]

The rhinestone thing is a cute idea. My daughter and I always celebrated a competition by getting chocolate milkshakes on the way home, regardless of how she had placed. Worked all the way through, from her first Pre-Preliminary competitions at age 6 to her last Senior competition at age 18. There's always something worth celebrating!

[sk8tmum]

And ... to put another spin on the age gap thing: due to a serious injury, my eldest DD was always the "old" kid in the flight (delay in her skating progession). Plus, she looks far older than her age; at 10, she looked 16.

We had parents booing and hissing and cursing us, and her, for how 'unfair' it was to have her skating against little kids. And she was regularly placed below kids far younger who had two legs that actually worked - which was very hard for her.

So. There's always a story, isn't there? But, I'll tell you: she's the toughest, most resilient and professional teenager I know, in part because she learned a number of lessons about what 'losing' was and what 'winning' was, and who the real competitior is in every flight (yourself).

Now, your little one will get there on that understanding ... it just takes time.

[Kim to the Max]

For future competitions, you may be able to make it less about the competition against others and more about the competition against yourself...maybe setting small goals such as landing all of the jumps or not looking at her feet or even just remembering the entire program...whatever some of her "things" are....

While I was older when I started competing, and I never really liked competing, and came in last the majority of times I did compete, I always tried to do better than I did the time before...for example, there was something about my lutz jump everytime I competed where I couldn't land it...so, my goal was to land my lutz in competition...and lo and behold I did and I came off the ice yelling, "I did it, I did it! ....how embarrassing is that on the video!) and while I ended up getting first in that competition, that didn't mean as much as landing that jump and proving it to myself that I could do it...

[dbny]

UGH> We had a seriously bad competition today. It was awful. They set up so many kids for complete failure and humiliation.

If these kids wanted complete humiliation for not being "great" they could skate USFS. And I dont mean that in a bad way because I like USFS. !


I think there is something seriously wrong somewhere along the way if a 4 year old thinks she is a failure and feels humiliated by her participation in a competition. I'm guessing that it was not just "failing", but that there was more going on. I don't think the average 4 yr old feels that she has failed and been humiliated by not winning or even by finishing last. Someone or ones must be shouting that message loud and clear. I'm not saying it's you at all; it could be the general atmosphere at the competition, it could be the club, it could be other skaters or even one in particular.

At our (USFS) Basic Skills competition, all kids competing in the tots levels get "gold" medals, and at our last comp, all the medals were the same. Maybe you could choose the competitions your daughter participates in more carefully, now that you know she could be affected so adversely.

[Rob Dean]

And ... to put another spin on the age gap thing: due to a serious injury, my eldest DD was always the "old" kid in the flight ...

My son will be 15 next week. He and his coach have been concentrating on moves this year so it doesn't look like he'll be doing much competing (since the new program is just starting to come together). Last year he was in three competitions, in flights of 3, 2, and 2 respectively. (We need more boys...) While he's making good progress on his skating, the fact remains that he never put on a pair of skates until he was over ten, so he was older and larger than the other boys in all three competitions--and was seriously outmatched in the first and last competitions, with the one in the middle being his turn for the mismatch to go the other way against a smaller boy skating up a level. So, as has been said, you shouldn't assume that the mismatches always go to the older ones.

Rob

[jenlyon60]

From an organizational perspective (having just planned and run a skating competition this past weekend), there is a fine line in grouping skaters to provide equity for the skaters and also make efficient use of the ice time and the judges' time. And both ice time and judges' time can be very expensive.

For my competition, we have alot of test level events which are further broken into age groups. if there is only 1 skater entered in one of the age group events in, say, Pre-Gold Dance, we will combine that skater's age group with an adjourning age group. We also try to avoid having events with only 2 competitors, whenever possible. That's another instance in which we will look at combining age groups within a single test level.

My event was a 2 full day competition. My largest expense (almost 70-75% of my total budget) was judges' expenses. My 2nd largest expense was for ice rental, followed by judges/coaches hospitality. The remaining expenses were miniscule compared to those.

Yes there were a number of other factors making this competitiona complete failure. Those I would rather not list as then people would know who i am if they read on her :)

And I agree loosing isnt everything. But to my very young child it was when she was forced to go out there and loose every event. She cried all night about what a horrible skater she was. And it didnt matter how many times I told her other wise or explained she wasnt as strong as the older kids. It doesnt matter to a young child. She still feels horrible.

And I am not really sure what is so wrong if there are multiple times a skater just skates against the book. Specially with ISI. Isnt that part of their whole philosophy. So kids can skate for fun and feel good about themselves. Otherwise they would just all skate together at the same level. No matter what their age.

I just know it was so bad I hope it doesnt crush my daughter permanently and keep from not skating or competing again. :(

[vesperholly]

There's no ISI in my area, but IIRC ... Isn't ISI the system where you compete against the book and you can come second or third against nothing? How would you explain that one to a little kid? "Sorry honey, you're not up to standard!" Yikes.

[Skittl1321]

There's no ISI in my area, but IIRC ... Isn't ISI the system where you compete against the book and you can come second or third against nothing? How would you explain that one to a little kid? "Sorry honey, you're not up to standard!" Yikes.

From my experience judging and competing, unless elements were missed, or something huge happened like the kid ran into the wall multiple times, it was highly unlikely a kid would come in lower than first. For adults the more experienced judges told me to score the element as if they had competition- as adults were more critical of their placement, but for kids it was pretty much given to them. I don't know if that's what all ISI competitions do, or just the view of the 5 judges I worked with.

I do know that our synchro short program was announced as recieving not only 1st against the book but "perfect scores"- and since I turn the wrong way on one mohawk, don't do a back lunge, and don't jump on my half flip (and that's just my mistakes- not everyone elses, or team things like the traveling circle not moving) either the judges were blind, or else the "against the book" thing is an automatic first.

[iceskaterdawn]

Just like life, skating isn't always fair.

I had to compete against the book for FS 1 before, and came in 2nd place. I didn't even have any mistakes, so I never understood why I got 2nd place. The only thing my coach could think of was maybe I didn't skate with enough speed.

At that same competition, I competed against a 9 year old (and I was 21 at the time) in FS 1. Her half flip was pretty much a split jump. She was way beyond what most FS 1 skaters skate like. She easily beat me.

At a competition the following year, I was FS 3 and for artistic, they placed me against a FS 5 14 year old skater. The rules stated that as a FS 3 skater, I couldn't do anything above my level, but as a FS 5 skater she was allowed to do elements from a higher level. Once again I completely lost that event, and left with a bad feeling as I didn't think we were even close to being on level playing field as we had different sets of rules. That was my last ISI competition.

I finally got old enough to start taking the USFSA tests, because at that time you had to be 25. I managed to pass up through bronze, and then the following day of the tests fractured my shoulder in two places and gave up skating.

[twokidsskatemom]

From my experience judging and competing, unless elements were missed, or something huge happened like the kid ran into the wall multiple times, it was highly unlikely a kid would come in lower than first. For adults the more experienced judges told me to score the element as if they had competition- as adults were more critical of their placement, but for kids it was pretty much given to them. I don't know if that's what all ISI competitions do, or just the view of the 5 judges I worked with.

I do know that our synchro short program was announced as recieving not only 1st against the book but "perfect scores"- and since I turn the wrong way on one mohawk, don't do a back lunge, and don't jump on my half flip (and that's just my mistakes- not everyone elses, or team things like the traveling circle not moving) either the judges were blind, or else the "against the book" thing is an automatic first.
Im our area, its not a given that you come in first in ISI.My daughter last ISI in March she was fs 5. They put the 8 and 12 year old together and a 17 year old by herself. The 17 year old came in second, as she didnt land either of her axles.I have seen solo dances by themselves where they come in second. My daughter coach truly believes its harder to be alone than not.
You can come in second for music that is to long, forgotten elements, higher level elements ect.
Maybe its different down there8-)

[Skittl1321]

Im our area, its not a given that you come in first in ISI.My daughter last ISI in March she was fs 5. They put the 8 and 12 year old together and a 17 year old by herself. The 17 year old came in second, as she didnt land either of her axles.I have seen solo dances by themselves where they come in second. My daughter coach truly believes its harder to be alone than not.
You can come in second for music that is to long, forgotten elements, higher level elements ect.
Maybe its different down there8-)

Not landing her axel would have been a missed element- which is one of the things I mentioned for not getting a 1st place.

I guess I should also clarify that this is for LOWER levels (below FS3) I didn't judge anything higher- as i only have the lowest level judging certificate- but I assume judges would hold the higher levels to a "true" standard, and expect them to not only skate stronger, but also understand how to handle a loss. (But for a beta level skater, for example- unless they just completely didn't do something, the other judges advised me to only place them first)

[twokidsskatemom]

Not landing her axel would have been a missed element- which is one of the things I mentioned for not getting a 1st place.

I guess I should also clarify that this is for LOWER levels (below FS3) I didn't judge anything higher- as i only have the lowest level judging certificate- but I assume judges would hold the higher levels to a "true" standard, and expect them to not only skate stronger, but also understand how to handle a loss. (But for a beta level skater, for example- unless they just completely didn't do something, the other judges advised me to only place them first) All I can say is here, they are judged on elements and I have seen plenty of skaters come in second or third with the book. Even at lower levels.Whats the point if its a given you are first?
IMO anyway.

[momof3chicks]

UGH> We had a seriously bad competition today. It was awful. They set up so many kids for complete failure and humiliation.

If these kids wanted complete humiliation for not being "great" they could skate USFS. And I dont mean that in a bad way because I like USFS. But for this particular skating competition with ISI. THey were pairing kids in the same group as kids twice their age.

For I.E. A 4 year old competiting against a 9 year old. And a 7 year old against a 13 year old. Its just not right. I can see maybe a two year age gap. But why would they want to torture these poor kids who have no chance!

My 7 yo daughter competed this weekend against girls who were clearly 11-13 or so, as did her friend (also 7) who is coached by the same woman. They came in 3rd and 4th our of 7 girls, and my daughter fell after she landed her lutz- still she beat 3 other girls that were older than her so I wouldn't say they have 'no' chance. If she hadn't fallen, she probably would have gotten a medal- her spins were better than the 12 yo girl that won. It was USFS.

[littlekateskate]

I can kind of understand a little bit 7 year olds with 12 year olds and what not. At that point they are big enough to have some strength and if a 7 year old has been skating longer or practices more they could easily be better.

But when you are talking a 4 year old. They dont have a chance. They dont physically yet have the ability or muscles.

[dbny]

But when you are talking a 4 year old. They dont have a chance. They dont physically yet have the ability or muscles.

But they also do not put an inflated value on winning unless someone has been pumping them up about it. Four year olds do not feel like failures without some external influence.

[Skittl1321]

All I can say is here, they are judged on elements and I have seen plenty of skaters come in second or third with the book. Even at lower levels.Whats the point if its a given you are first?
IMO anyway.

I think that's great that they actually hold them to the standard set. I agree- what's the point if you're just given the first place. It was my first time judging, and I was working with a set of judges who had done it for a long time. I was merely sharing what I was told.

I think it further shows a good reason why you shouldn't have skaters against the book if you don't have to. How do you explain to a 4 year old they got 3rd place- against no one, especially if they are already devestated and humiliated by 3rd place our of 3? (or whatever size the group was- I'm now in hypotheticals). I think it's much easier to say "we can't control how the other skaters did- and today they just placed higher" then it would be to say "well, you just weren't up to par this time. But I'm so proud of you for going out there and doing the best you could do."

[momof3chicks]

I can kind of understand a little bit 7 year olds with 12 year olds and what not. At that point they are big enough to have some strength and if a 7 year old has been skating longer or practices more they could easily be better.

But when you are talking a 4 year old. They dont have a chance. They dont physically yet have the ability or muscles.

Maybe, I still feel like my 7 yo is at a disadvantage when it comes to strength, coordination and the ability to pull off a program that looks put together compared to an older girl. Element to element, I would say you are right, but with the music programs not so much.

[twokidsskatemom]

I think that's great that they actually hold them to the standard set. I agree- what's the point if you're just given the first place. It was my first time judging, and I was working with a set of judges who had done it for a long time. I was merely sharing what I was told.

I think it further shows a good reason why you shouldn't have skaters against the book if you don't have to. How do you explain to a 4 year old they got 3rd place- against no one, especially if they are already devestated and humiliated by 3rd place our of 3? (or whatever size the group was- I'm now in hypotheticals). I think it's much easier to say "we can't control how the other skaters did- and today they just placed higher" then it would be to say "well, you just weren't up to par this time. But I'm so proud of you for going out there and doing the best you could do."
I agree with you, which is why we try to move them up if we can for the comp . In USFSA you can compete up a level.
But on the other hand, you can say a 4/5 year old........ this is what you need to do, A,B,C. If you miss something you will not place first, but you will get a medal.If they can learn a program, I feel they also can learn that.
We talk alot about doing their best, so we never had issues with how they placed.

[jskater49]

I mean this in all kindness -- If I had a child who cried all night because she lost I would stop putting her in competitions. FInd a club where she can skate in a show...she's not ready to compete. She may always finish last. If that upsets her she shouldn't compete. There's no shame in that.

j

[sk8lady]

I totally agree, as a coach, skater, and parent. Shows are really feel-good experiences for ALL the skaters, especially the really young kids--I ran the Basic Skills 1 & 2 number for our show this year and the parents told me their kids had a GREAT time. They loved wearing their little costumes and having people applaud for them. I had one little girl who cried once during a practice because she suddenly missed her mom (she was 4) and one of the older kids (who is usually a bit of a problem child) immediately adopted her and made sure she was okay for the rest of the rehearsals and the show. It was great.
I didn't even suggest that any of my younger students do the Basic Skills competition this year, although I know some do--I took my students who are close to advancing into Freestyle or are already doing some. All three of them won gold medals and they were HOOKED, which I suspect is what these competitions are supposed to do. Plus they came back and talked it up--so now others want to do the competition next year. They were all old enough to be into the competition angle--which always means someone wins and someone loses, and part of that experience is learning to lose gracefully and learn from your mistakes. At 4, I don't think kids really understand that--they just feel like losers if they lose.
The year I was assistant coach for a Mites hockey team (6, 7, and 8 year olds), the last game of the year was at a tournament. Our head coach put kids out in different positions than they usually play and they got DESTROYED. I asked why he was moving everyone around and he thought it would be more fun for the kids to try something different even if they lost pretty badly--he felt like they knew they could probably win if everyone played their regular positions.
After the game I went into the locker room to say good-bye to the kids. After about 2 minutes I gave up because they were all CRYING. Not so much fun after all!!!

[Mrs Redboots]

This is quite gracefully said, i love it.

Its hard with kids. You just dont know what to say sometimes at that exact moment.

Its not her first competition and she has never had a problem before.

All you can do is tell her how proud you are of her - because you are, aren't you? She went out there and did her best, and that's the only thing she can control. If she didn't skate well - it happens - then you are still really proud of her for keeping going and showing everybody her programme.

[littlekateskate]

Today, dd had her lts test. She didnt pass and this was already her second time in Gamma. She was so cute and didnt care she didnt pass. She said, i dont care mommy but lets not tell anyone they will be mad.

I had to tell her no one cares if she passes or not. But at least she didnt care. there were other girls in her class crying they didnt pass!

[TiggerTooSkates]

And ... to put another spin on the age gap thing: due to a serious injury, my eldest DD was always the "old" kid in the flight (delay in her skating progession). Plus, she looks far older than her age; at 10, she looked 16.

We had parents booing and hissing and cursing us, and her, for how 'unfair' it was to have her skating against little kids. And she was regularly placed below kids far younger who had two legs that actually worked - which was very hard for her.

So. There's always a story, isn't there? But, I'll tell you: she's the toughest, most resilient and professional teenager I know, in part because she learned a number of lessons about what 'losing' was and what 'winning' was, and who the real competitior is in every flight (yourself).

Now, your little one will get there on that understanding ... it just takes time.

The only losers at those competitions were the ones booing your daughter. How mature of adults...it always amazes me how childish grown men and women can act...:twisted:

And how wonderful that your daughter did not let those &*(#^@ get the best of her. :D:D

[sk8_mom]

But when you are talking a 4 year old. They dont have a chance. They dont physically yet have the ability or muscles.

I just don't understand - why is it that you think your 4 yr old is ready to compete? Especially if she doesn't have the physical ability or muscles? Why is she in this competition at all?

Maybe your DD would really benefit from NOT competing for awhile? Honestly, what benefit do you think there is to your daughter from putting her through this?

4 year olds are not ready for this, competing at this age is ridiculous, whether it is ISI or not. Did she really cry all night because she was upset about placing last? Did she really really understand what last even meant - until you explained it to her? Maybe she was just picking up on the fact that you were upset and that's why she cried?

btw, I do have a 14 yr old who is a competitive skater, and if I could do it all over again with her - I would WAIT until she was older and really was ready to compete (and she didn't start at 4 either). I know you think she will miss out, but really waiting a bit will mean no difference in the long run. You will save money, she will develop better skills and hopefully have more fun and stay longer in this great sport.

[momsk8er]

One thing to think about is how much you are expecting your child to win or at least medal in a competition. At lower levels, certainly until a child is in qualifying competitions, there is no point in even thinking about winning. I always tell my daughter competing at this level is for the experience. I tell her that there will be many competitions she will do well in, and many that she will not do well in over time. But that is really not the point. I would never enter my daughter into a competition if I believed that winning is the point, because there would always be a good chance that winning wouldn't happen. The point of competition in the non-qual rounds is learning to do as well as you can under pressure. The point is to do better than you did the last time (ie. did you land a jump this time that you missed the last time?) Maybe this needed to be set up better for her beforehand. I would try to learn from this experience as a parent. There are times she will be the best skater in the bunch but fall apart because she is tired or nervous or just not having a good day. Or the judging will be off. You can't focus on winning and stay in this sport. You need to show your daughter that winning is just icing on the cake. Sometimes it happens, and when it does its great. But the real joy is in doing something you love, and improving at it.

[techskater]

It also sounds like there was too much time preparing to compete and not enough time spent learning the required elements for the LTS test she didn't pass. There comes a point where you have to make that decision - compete or test.

[littlekateskate]

One thing to think about is how much you are expecting your child to win or at least medal in a competition. At lower levels, certainly until a child is in qualifying competitions, there is no point in even thinking about winning. I always tell my daughter competing at this level is for the experience. I tell her that there will be many competitions she will do well in, and many that she will not do well in over time. But that is really not the point. I would never enter my daughter into a competition if I believed that winning is the point, because there would always be a good chance that winning wouldn't happen. The point of competition in the non-qual rounds is learning to do as well as you can under pressure. The point is to do better than you did the last time (ie. did you land a jump this time that you missed the last time?) Maybe this needed to be set up better for her beforehand. I would try to learn from this experience as a parent. There are times she will be the best skater in the bunch but fall apart because she is tired or nervous or just not having a good day. Or the judging will be off. You can't focus on winning and stay in this sport. You need to show your daughter that winning is just icing on the cake. Sometimes it happens, and when it does its great. But the real joy is in doing something you love, and improving at it.

I guess we never considered "preparing" her for the competition. As in having to tell her its just for fun its not about winning, ect. She has been skating for 2 years and this wasnt even close to her first competition or show. And before since she has never even realized the concept of winning it wasnt a factor. Heck she would get more irritated in the past if she didnt get a fun color medal. It was just about "color" lol. And normally she couldnt get a green (6th i think) because there werent even enough skaters.

But now we know for the future that she now understand the whole concept.

[littlekateskate]

It also sounds like there was too much time preparing to compete and not enough time spent learning the required elements for the LTS test she didn't pass. There comes a point where you have to make that decision - compete or test.

The thing is she WANTS to compete. She doesnt care about her LTS classes. IF she could only compete/do shows and not practice she would. And for her I dont think it would have mattered if there was no competition and she just worked on LTS. She didnt pass her mohawks. Which I dont think at 4 she can mentally get to click yet. It will come and I wouldnt have changed anything, other than prepared her better for the whole just try your best you dont have to win. (but like i said she didnt even know before whether she was winning or loosing - she just was excited to get a medal).

[Skittl1321]

(but like i said she didnt even know before whether she was winning or loosing - she just was excited to get a medal).

What was different about this competition that got her so upset then? Did they not do the standard ISI everyone gets a medal or ribbon? So she was upset and cried about not getting a medal?

[sk8tmum]

The thing is she WANTS to compete. She doesnt care about her LTS classes. IF she could only compete/do shows and not practice she would.

Maybe then this is something that needs to come with maturity: that the practice is what makes the competing "possible" and more effective? A next step would be to help her make that connection - if you don't practice, you don't compete well; if you don't practice, you don't pass your test, which is a type of competition too, and then you don't move up to compete at higher levels ... but, I would think, a stretch for a 4 year old (I don't think there's a Backyardigans or Dora episode about THAT concept :!:)

[Skating Jessica]

...but, I would think, a stretch for a 4 year old (I don't think there's a Backyardigans or Dora episode about THAT concept :!:)

I'm still experiencing that issue with the 7 year old that I coach. She's starting to grasp the benefits of practicing in regards to tests and competions and now her parents can't drag her off the ice, LOL!

She used to think that just because she skated, she deserved to win, regularly asking me, "Do the judges ever tie two people for first place?" Her questions have more recently included things like, "Do you think that those strokes will win?" If I don't give her the answer she wants to hear, that she'll do wonderfully, she's back to working on them.

This little girl, however, is very competitive--even at 7 years old, which may have an influence. After all, she doesn't just want to do her best; she wants to be the best. That's a struggle in itself right there at times. She's slowly learning that the skater at the top of the mountain didn't just fall, or rather land, there. I'm not saying that every coach needs to be harsh on a child or anything, but some skaters require different motivations than others. For this little girl, her motivation is her desire to win and she knows the only way to achieve that goal is to practice.

I think it's as much about a child's personality (is she competitve or more laid-back, for instance?) as it is their maturity level. And, every child's different, of course.

ETA: Also, I just noticed that in the original post the statement about that particular competition having kids "unfairly" group age-wise. That very incident happens regularly at a local competition and several parents of my skaters had a miserable time dealing with their letdown and frustrated children. I mean, we had 11 year olds against well-developed 16 years olds.

My solution: I decided that I would not push that specific competition. If my skaters wanted to compete there, the option was still available and I'd be more than willing to accompany them; however, they had to understand that the groups could potentially be the same as years before--with drastically different ages grouped together. That way, if the parents or the skaters aren't happy, at least they knew what they were possibly up against.

[sk8lady]

This is really not making a lot of sense to me. Your child has been skating since she was two, has done lots of competitions, but doesn't want to "practice" or care about her tests and doesn't prepare for competitions and then is upset if she doesn't do well, and so are you.
What's the point of participating in the competition if it's not a goal reached from practicing and preparing?
As a parent...We always told our hockey kid that he can't play in the games if he doesn't go to practice--because you have to learn how to play the right way at the practices.
As a coach...no way would I want one of my students competing if she didn't prepare and didn't want to practice.
If the child doesn't understand this because of their age, they're too young to compete.

[Skating Jessica]

I agree, sk8lady. Unfortunately, there's many parents out there like that. There was an article in PSA Magazine a few months ago written by Bob Mock called "The Drive-Thru Skater." Basically, it was all about how the new generation of skaters/parents don't want to devote the time to this sport yet still expect the rewards of passing tests and winning competitions and how coaches need to adapt to this new breed of skaters. Very interesting (and accurate!) to say the least, especially since I deal with many parents and their children with that mentality.

My, how things have changed from when I was a young skater [in the mid-90s]! Although I'm still a fairly young coach at just 22 years old, it's disheartening and frustrating to put all your energy and time into a kid that doesn't seem to care about the great life lessons skating teaches: dedication, practice, disappointments, rewards, etc. Such a shame...

[stacyf419]

I'm wondering if the little girl (and 4 is little more than a baby still in so many ways) just loves the excitement of putting the pretty dress on, getting her hair done and maybe wearing lipstick? I used to do dance recitals as a little girl - I think I was only about 3 for my first one - and I was a horrible dancer. But it was so much fun to have that dress and wear my mom's lipstick!!

That's why I think the 'do a show' suggestions are really good ones, littlekateskate. You should really think about having your little girl just do those shows for awhile until she's old enough to know whether or not she actually enjoys the skating - not just the performing. MHO.