Core strength in upright spins

[katz in boots]

I have read a couple of times in this forum about the need to have good core strength to do good spins. I don't have good core strength, probably not even moderate strength. My coach also reckons spins are harder work than jumps because you have to maintain that strength throughout.

Today I really worked at trying to keep my abdominal muscles tight and my posture strong in upright spins. Couldn't centre a spin at all, but no better or worse than usual.

Late in the session I decided to try a "rag doll" spin; just going into an upright with no tension, no holding muscles in, not even arm tension. And I centred 3 in a row, they went on for ages too ! Just totally relaxed, floppy body, arms and leg.

What's with that? How important is it to hold a strong posture & abdominal muscles throughout a spin to get a good result?

[techskater]

I would suspect when you are trying to keep your core tight, you aren't getting your knee bent enough or holding the entry edge long enough because you are tensing your entire body. When you relaxed, they just "went".

[fsk8r]

I need to relax to centre an upright spin, but I think that's because if I tense up everything I over compensate whereas relaxing I hold everything in the right place and can centre the spin. However, to get a back spin to even turn (and I've been struggling to eek out a single revolution for a long time) I've discovered that I have to pull everything in and feel like i'm in a corset to actually get the spin to turn.
I think you probably have to relax to get control as I feel a lot better when I skate relaxed, but sometimes to learn new things holding things in is the best way to get the posture right.

[Clarice]

I tend to "overdo" things - in this case, when I "try" to pull in tight and stand up straight in a spin, I tend to pull my shoulders too far back and get off my center. If you're doing this, too, you may have actually improved your alignment when you relaxed. For me, proper alignment over the sweet spot under the ball of the foot (which I also tend to place too far forward), feels like I'm stretching up and slightly forward. Have your coach or a ballet instructor (mine is very helpful in this regard) check your body alignment, especially in a spin.

[Skate@Delaware]

there has to be a happy medium between the strength i.e. "tension" and a state of relaxation...I'm thinking you were too tense throughout and it made you too stiff.

You need tension during the spin, which you will gain through core strength; this is best described as "maintaining proper posture" and not sogging out completely...not sure if i'm explaining it. You don't want to stiffen everything up that is counterproductive.

Like sitting in a chair, if you maintain correct posture it's better than slouching all over. You can maintain correct posture if your core is strong. You will not be sore.

If you want a great exercise for core strength, try front and side planks.

[katz in boots]

Tried the relaxed approach again today, and it still works. Decided to try the relaxed entry, then tightening things somewhat to gain speed as I bring in arms and cross the leg. One done that way worked well, others didn't.

What I did find today was that this approach also works well on upright backspins.

All this concentrating on every little aspect of backspins, just seems to work so much better when I relax.:roll:

[Sessy]

I dunno, every time the coaches tried to tell me my spins were wobbling because of a lack of core strength, eventually an other part of my technique turned out to be at fault, usually something on the entry edge. Same thing for most my skating friends.
The best spinner I know among ppl who started as adults, is a totally relaxed chick btw, she does everything really relaxed.
So I sort of don't really believe in the whole lack or core strength story anymore. I mean it may be true for kids who have recently grown or are too thin, or for elderly people who are losing muscle tone, but all the young adults who skate whom I know are pretty muscular and athletic, I'm just not buying the lack of core strength thing.

Well except the camel spin, but there they told me my posture was off and when I got the right one, automatically my core tightened too. They didn't try to blame the core there.

[doubletoe]

I can't speak for anyone else, but, like Sessy, none of my issues have ever turned out to be a strength problem. It always ended up being a technique problem, most often having to do with the position of my chest and shoulders.

[katz in boots]

ITA Doubletoe/Sessy. Unless one is generally low-tone and lacking strength, poor technique would be my pick as the problem.

My coach hasn't said it's a problem for me, more that she commented on how much more tiring spins are than jumps because of having to hold the position.

I guess I picked up the issue of core strength from others' posts in different threads on these boards.

[Mrs Redboots]

It could be both, and. I do have technique issues on a lot of things (including spins), but I also realised today that tightening my core (I'm going to ache tomorrow) really improved my back edges about 100%!

[tidesong]

I would say that lack of muscle tone (and/or imbalance in muscle strength) would be more likely related to things such as stamina and potential for injuries (quality of moves probably too), but less related to actually being able to do a particular move on the ice.

I agree that its usually technique.

[Query]

Late in the session I decided to try a "rag doll" spin; just going into an upright with no tension, no holding muscles in, not even arm tension. And I centred 3 in a row, they went on for ages too ! Just totally relaxed, floppy body, arms and leg.

I'm the last person to tell anyone how to spin. If I try to spin, I twizzle, and vice versa. (And no, trying to do the other one doesn't work very well either.) Even worse, I can't tell when I'm not centered.

But if you acutally relax with no muscle tension, you will fall down like a rag doll. You must be using muscles to hold your spine straight, even if you are unaware of them.

Maybe when you think you are using muscles, you are using the wrong ones.

For example - suppose you use the internal layers (next to the bone) of muscle tissue to straighten your spine, when you think you are relaxed. Most people can't feel internal muscle layers unless they get sore. So you don't know you are using them.

Perhaps when you think you are using muscle, you are (also?) using the external muscle layers (next to the skin), which most people can feel (or do they really feel the skin tightening? - I don't know). When the external layers contract, they compress all the other layers of muscle and other tissue, creating friction between them, so they can't slide against each other. You can't move right if various tissue layers can't slide against each other - your range of motion away from the current position goes to almost zero in the compressed regions.

A good ballet or modern dance teacher would be able to tell, as this is all very standard dance training. I guess a good skating coach probably could too.

Does that sound plausible?

Anyway, you've found a way to do it - so that way must be right!

[Skate@Delaware]

Query is right, you seem to have found the happy medium between too much and too little muscular tension. If it felt like you had no friction in your spin, and they were centered, then you hit the nail on the head!!!! Yay!

[katz in boots]

Query is right, you seem to have found the happy medium between too much and too little muscular tension. If it felt like you had no friction in your spin, and they were centered, then you hit the nail on the head!!!! Yay!

Yes, I've been digesting what Query said. Only problem is, it didn't work for me this weekend. :oops: (no skating last Wednesday night, and it only takes one missed session to set my spins back. It is most inconvenient !) So maybe I have to tighten it all up again until I am getting things better again and then relax again.:giveup:

[Skating Jessica]

If you want a great exercise for core strength, try front and side planks.
Planks are fantastic core builders! So is Pilates since many of the exercises are about slow, steady control and using those core muscles to maintain it.

If you have access to one, try some exercises out on a BOSU ball. Most gyms have them. And, they're fairly simply to use. They can be a bit expensive (I've seen 'em for like, $100), but they are awesome because you absolutely must maintain core strength to use them. This is what it says on their website, www.bosupro.com:

"Both core stabilization and mover - or isolation - trunk conditioning can take place in a variety of positions on the BOSU® Balance Trainer. The abs work functionally in standing, kneeling, seated, sidelying, prone and supine positions and can be challenged with traditional isolation or stabilization exercises, where the goal of the exercise is to maintain a neutral and otherwise, properly aligned spine. Maintaining spinal alignment is important to low back health and sports performance, as is intentionally moving into and out of 'perfect' or neutral posture."

[Skate@Delaware]

I would start with basic stuff first, then graduate to the bosu balls. Otherwise, you might get frustrated! It's like learning a waltz jump then going ahead for that axel....doesn't quite work yet.

For spinning, there is a lot of tension held in the body, but it isn't rigid. You do hold your abs in, and I've been taught to push down with my shoulders...all the while trying to stretch UP my body from my skating foot to the top of my head (helps center). And not rush. When I do it right (which isn't very often) I can spin 15-25 revs. and fast! When it dorks up, well all bets are off!

Pilates helps a lot with core strength. Most people don't develop it going to the gym and doing regular exercises. Pilates develops the interior workings-the inner framework.