Struggling with new boots & blades

[katz in boots]

Well, the competition is over and for the last 2 weeks I have been struggling to get used to my new skates - Jackson Proflex boots and Ultima Freestyle Matrix blades. Loving the ankle bend in the boots, there is an amazing feeling of freedom in that, but am really struggling to skate well in them.

I can now take off most jumps I could do before, except lutz. But I have to say that I am not able to do any jump well, and I cannot do loops off any other jump at all, whereas I could pretty easily before.

Spins are a similar struggle. For some reason my ordinary upright stork is better than in my old skates, but nothing else. Instead of helping get my sit spins lower, my sit spins are now non-existent. Camels, well I've done one I'm happy with (not that they were great before), and for some reason I cannot change feet in any spin. Backspins are less consistent than they were, but occasionally I get a reasonably one.

Other stuff, well spirals aren't any easier or harder, but back crossovers are harder for some reason. It seems to be to do with the resistance of pushing against the front of the boot, now there's no resistance, it is weird.

So obviously the boots are quite different from what I'm used to, in a lot of ways. I am wondering how much is the boots, and how much is having different blades with a different rocker. I'm doing lots of edges and exercises to find my toe-picks and get used to the skates, any tips would be welcome.

[Morgail]

Thanks for posting this. I've been interested in these boots. Do you think you're having to build more ankle strength? Maybe that's why you're having so much trouble getting used to them.

I've heard that a change in rocker size can affect your spins.

[Isk8NYC]

I sympathize with you; I picked up my patch skates this past weekend and I was totally rocked by the difference. Almost disheartened, although I know that this will help me as a skater in the long run.

I'm skating sideways, can't catch a clean outside edge, and even stopping is a challenge. I don't think I could skate to the middle - I stayed on the sides the whole time. Mohawks and 3-turns were much easier, but an attempt at a bracket sat me on my bottom.

Sigh. Best laid plans of mice and men...

Hang in there, it has to get easier, right?

[Verena]

Hi!

I totally share your feelings. Me too, I have just changed my skates, both boots and blades. Although I got the same boot, graf edmonton special, it seems that the old ones had become too soft, and now, the new ones, feel like ski boots!
Also, I changed from the MK phantom blade to Wilson gold seals.. The feeling is totally different. The result is that I feel very awkard: safer than before, but I cannot do anything correct - very unstable..

[skaternum]

This is why I never change both boots and blades at the same time. I did it once, and never again! It's too difficult to tell what is a boot problem vs. what is a blade problem. It took forever to get everything adjusted!

[Isk8NYC]

I'm using a pair of old custom boots, so in my case it's just the blades are sooo different.

[Verena]

I presumed that it would be hard to change both the boot and the blade. Yet, I decided that if I have to go through an adaptation period with great frustration, it would be nice to do it at once and get over it.. You think this was a bad idea?

[Casey]

Hi!

I totally share your feelings. Me too, I have just changed my skates, both boots and blades. Although I got the same boot, graf edmonton special, it seems that the old ones had become too soft, and now, the new ones, feel like ski boots!
Also, I changed from the MK phantom blade to Wilson gold seals.. The feeling is totally different. The result is that I feel very awkard: safer than before, but I cannot do anything correct - very unstable..

My first "real" skates were Graf Edmonton Specials. I put "real" in quotes because I really don't like these boots. The problem is that they are very stiff when new, but break down quickly and are very soft in less than a year. In addition to my low-level skating putting heavy creases into them within a few months, I had issues with the heels separating from the boots. Everyone in the industry said that this was "normal" for these boots, and they only have a life expectancy of about six months. So as consolation, after a couple weeks they should be a lot better. I liked the gold seal blades quite a lot when I used them with the Klingbeil boots I replaced the Graf's with, but they do take a little getting used to since the rocker is flatter than the Phantoms or other 7' rocker blades... Hang in there though, you'll find the spot - you just have to be more precise about it than with 7' rockers. But once you find it, it's ohhhh so stable and nice and clean on those blades. :) I was able to spin really really well on them.

This is me, on Klingbeils+Gold Seals:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ghBD2kU15XU

[saras]

Well, the competition is over and for the last 2 weeks I have been struggling to get used to my new skates - Jackson Proflex boots and Ultima Freestyle Matrix blades. Loving the ankle bend in the boots, there is an amazing feeling of freedom in that, but am really struggling to skate well in them.

<snip>

So obviously the boots are quite different from what I'm used to, in a lot of ways. I am wondering how much is the boots, and how much is having different blades with a different rocker. I'm doing lots of edges and exercises to find my toe-picks and get used to the skates, any tips would be welcome.

I switched to the same boot/blade combo as you did - and TOTALLY - it took a while to get used to them. I think the blade was harder to get used to than the boot honestly. For months, I kept finding new little things "whoops, haven't figured out that yet in these new feet". It's like having a double foot transplant LOL.

Stick with it - it took me a few weeks to really feel like I could start "working" again on ice. After a month, I was pretty comfortable. Now (I got them in the fall of 06), I love them, and they're still holding up really well. No need to replace them yet - not sure when that will happen.

My spins took the longest - though honestly, I really think it was the blade rocker rather than the boot. Also, the spin entrance is so "dynamic" re the ankle bend, it just took a while to build up the finesse to do it well with all the ankle mobility in these boots.

One of my coaches at the time explained it as it's like before I was skating with a pencil and pen as tools, and now I had a box of crayons. Whereas before I had to *work* to get bend when I wanted it (and sometimes you're working to get bend down and to get extension up and out - it's like opposite pulls that's hard to do well) - but when I didn't want the bend the control was there. Now, I have the bend whenever I want it - but I have to control the stability when I don't want the bend. Re the crayons - now there is a much wider range of "bends" than I can have.

I think I'm a better skater with these boots.

Tips - just keep doing what you're doing. Do a lot of edges and MIF patterns and turns. Work up to more jumping and spinning. Go back over MIF things from old tests that you passed a while ago. "Revisit" old skills. I found that it didn't take long to get each thing back, but a lot of things needed a period of "oh, that's different, ok, figure it out".

[Verena]

Thanks!
It's good to be reassured that all this frustration is expected and that it is worth while..
What you are saying concerning the control needed for the new blades, but also the more possibilities they give you, is what I have sensed right away. The metaphor with the crayons is very descriptive.
As for the spins and jumps, my first impression of the blades is that it is like they do it for you - if you know how to let them do it :-). I was caught by surprise by how little effort (but also how fine control) you need to get into a spin or a jump with the gold seals..

[katz in boots]

I switched to the same boot/blade combo as you did - and TOTALLY - it took a while to get used to them. I think the blade was harder to get used to than the boot honestly. For months, I kept finding new little things "whoops, haven't figured out that yet in these new feet". It's like having a double foot transplant LOL.

My spins took the longest - though honestly, I really think it was the blade rocker rather than the boot. Also, the spin entrance is so "dynamic" re the ankle bend, it just took a while to build up the finesse to do it well with all the ankle mobility in these boots.

I think it's the blade more than anything. From 20+ year old Phantoms, to a different rocker and pick angle.

And I wasn''t a natural spinner anyway. How on earth do I learn where my spinning spot is????

[jp1andOnly]

Practice lots of uprights and back spins. I switched blades like you and I felt so silly not being able to find the spot. The skate shop I bought the skates from had sharpened them (he's very good but not my usual guy) and I brought them to my regular guy who put my old sharpening on them and that made a difference. I struggled with spins for well over a month.

oh ya...forgot to add. The ultima's are less forgiving on poor technique/faulty technique/whatever you want to call it. I found that I really had to fix up my backspin and get the positions really strong and only then did it start to make sense.


I think it's the blade more than anything. From 20+ year old Phantoms, to a different rocker and pick angle.

And I wasn''t a natural spinner anyway. How on earth do I learn where my spinning spot is????

[Jumper]

I got Proflex and Paramount blades about 2 month ago. I love thme a lot. It took a little to adjust jumps. The hardest were camel spins - there were no more lean onto the tounge of the boot and I also I could not get clean outside entrance edge. Now it's fine. Proflex boots are a little different when it comes to edges - you need to practice a lot to feel them. I think about edges that they come not from pressing on the side of the boot but rather from pressing onto insole and tilting it. This helped a lot especially with camels and loop jumps.

Another thing - make sure if you pronate to have a good orthotic or arch/heel lift in the boot. Proflex won't forgive it - will twist dearily and make impossible to hold edges. I pronate on my right leg and have to put tonns of lift under right heel. Without it I felt like my right heel was rolling inside, especially when skating on one foot backwards. Finally I almost got it comfortable by now. Still have a bit of resist and snow flying when doing right outside edge but can go straight forward and bkwd on the right leg with good support. It took a while to experiment with blade shifting and heel lifting. Stick with it and everything will be fine.

[katz in boots]

Thanks everyone !

I am not having trouble with pressing on the front of the boot for camels or spirals, which I did wonder about, it is actually the sit spin where I miss that pressure. There is now nothing to stop me going all the way down 8O other than my ancient knees, poor position, and the knowledge that I won't get back up again.

I have Superfeet inner soles, love those, they help with any pronation, and am fine with using the foot pressure to get the edges (though coach tells me I use body position rather than edges for some things).

"oh ya...forgot to add. The ultima's are less forgiving on poor technique/faulty technique/whatever you want to call it. I found that I really had to fix up my backspin and get the positions really strong and only then did it start to make sense."

Less forgiving is not what I needed right now :roll:

Ah well, ever onwards. Grit my teeth and press on regardless tomorrow morning.

[Casey]

For the sit spin, personally, I find the secret is to just sit all the way down, and then you're not mashing your shin up against the support of the front of your boot anyways. It takes some guts to do at first, but you're so low that it's only like another 6 inches to just sit down and breakdance. :)

My issue now is sheer lack of strength... :P

[saras]

For the sit spin, personally, I find the secret is to just sit all the way down, and then you're not mashing your shin up against the support of the front of your boot anyways. It takes some guts to do at first, but you're so low that it's only like another 6 inches to just sit down and breakdance. :)

That support is what's *totally* different in the Pro-flex boots. There's no mashing. Try hopping up and down in sneakers (no rotation). That's what it feels like regarding the forward bend/support - you have all the bend you want.

[Rusty Blades]

There is now nothing to stop me going all the way down 8O other than my ancient knees, poor position, and the knowledge that I won't get back up again.

LOL! Me to! I wouldn't have a Sit Spin without the Proflex but I told my coach I wanted the Sit at the end of the program just in case I had trouble getting up!

I am not at the same level you folks are at but it took me about 2 weeks to get used to the Proflex and most of my elements have been learned since making the switch. (I didn't change blades though, just boots.)

[katz in boots]

Another thing I realised today, when I fall over, it is much harder to get up - a bit of a problem, as I fall at least twice per session. Again it is lacking the pressure against the front of the boot that makes the difference.

[bebi]

Well, the competition is over and for the last 2 weeks I have been struggling to get used to my new skates - Jackson Proflex boots and Ultima Freestyle Matrix blades. Loving the ankle bend in the boots, there is an amazing feeling of freedom in that, but am really struggling to skate well in them.

I can now take off most jumps I could do before, except lutz. But I have to say that I am not able to do any jump well, and I cannot do loops off any other jump at all, whereas I could pretty easily before.

Spins are a similar struggle. For some reason my ordinary upright stork is better than in my old skates, but nothing else. Instead of helping get my sit spins lower, my sit spins are now non-existent. Camels, well I've done one I'm happy with (not that they were great before), and for some reason I cannot change feet in any spin. Backspins are less consistent than they were, but occasionally I get a reasonably one.

Other stuff, well spirals aren't any easier or harder, but back crossovers are harder for some reason. It seems to be to do with the resistance of pushing against the front of the boot, now there's no resistance, it is weird.

...any tips would be welcome.

Katz, I feel your pain, which is hopefully subsided somewhat by now. Re: the spirals and anything going backwards. You're right, the lack of resistance from the boot makes them very *different,* and it just takes a while to adjust and find your own "stopping point." The same is true for elements like laybacks where there is nothing to prevent your ankle going forward when you press your hips forward. I found it helpful to hold the boards and just practice finding the static body position for each element a few times.

I want to issue a word of caution not so much about beginning your journey with the ProFlex skates, but about what happened to me as mine broke in. Before I get any flames, this is not an attempt to diss Jackson, but an honest recount of my recent experience.

I had hoped the ProFlex boots would last a little longer than my usual year/year-and-a-half wear out of boots because theoretically, the hinge *should* have lessened the crease which typically denotes the end of the skates' life. It didn't. After about nine months, they got a crease under the hinged part. And, they fell apart all at once about three weeks before AN. The tongues split in half, the support was all but gone, and the metal thread that winds inside the ankle to tighten the skate shredded into several pieces.

I called Jackson and asked if I could either buy a new pair with a rush shipment, or have them repaired. Their answers were 1) I couldn't get new boots any sooner than 8 weeks, and 2) They would send me instructions and parts to repair the threads myself because "it happens all the time." What arrived was a set of knobs, some wires, and instructions that looked as if they were translated from an obscure language which said to heat the knob with a blow dryer, pull it completely out of the boot, and replace the threads being careful to yada, yada, yada... IMHO, too scary a task to do just before a big competition.

So, I took my chances, hoping the boots would hold up without my disassembling them and went to Lake Placid with the parts and a blow dryer in my bags. They hung on, but during that time, I started feeling some pain upon landing my jumps and lost consistency of the landings. 'Ordered some custom boots from another manufacturer when I returned home & did only spins and moves while the new skates were being made because the pain was too intense when jumping.

After a week in my new (other brand) skates, I tried jumping again, and it hurt like...well, you know. Went to the Dr. who says I have a stress fracture in my mid foot that has been there for a few months. Again, before anyone reads this and starts hiring attorneys, I'm not necessarily saying it's attributable to the degraded, broken-down, falling apart boots I was in, but I will say that I participated in no other activity during the last few months that would account for it, nor did I feel any pain walking or doing anything other than jumping in the degraded, broken-down, falling apart boots. ;)

Sooo...if you like the boots (as I really did before all this happened), you might consider ordering your next pair long before you expect your current pair to wear out. And if anyone out there sees the crease and starts tightening the knob tighter and tighter -- just don't! Order new boots and take some time off before you're forced into it like me (4 months completely off the ice...arrggghh!!!)

[katz in boots]

Oh Bebi, that is not a good experience. I hope mine will last okay! So far my coach has had hers about 1.5 years (I think).


I called Jackson and asked if I could either buy a new pair with a rush shipment, or have them repaired. Their answers were 1) I couldn't get new boots any sooner than 8 weeks, and 2) They would send me instructions and parts to repair the threads myself because "it happens all the time." What arrived was a set of knobs, some wires, and instructions that looked as if they were translated from an obscure language which said to heat the knob with a blow dryer, pull it completely out of the boot, and replace the threads being careful to yada, yada, yada... IMHO, too scary a task to do just before a big competition.

My coach had a wire break. I lent her one of mine, but as mine are the newer model, they were 30cm too long really. She came around to my place with her skate and a set of instructions. It was totally scary watching her prising bits off the back of her boot and take it apart with these tiny screws. 8O8OBut, it worked, she figured it out and she got her boot serviceable again. Way frightening the first time, and I'm glad she went through it first.

A few people here have these boots & blades now, so she'll be able to help us all when/if our time comes.

[Rusty Blades]

Bebi: I have passed your concerns on to the Jackson factory rep. If he has any suggestions I am sure he will be in touch but rest assured that someone at Jackson who cares now knows about the problem.

I got the "replacing the wires lesson" from the factory rep while at Canadian Nationals (and a spare set of wires) so I am confident I could replace a wire if I had to.

Before I bought my Proflex, I did a pretty extensive investigation and got feedback from everybody I could who was wearing them and nobody had any problems aside from broken wires so I am really surprised to hear about Bebi's boots falling apart like that!

One elite skaters I talked to had a wire break at a major competition and he got by fine by taping the upper part of the boot for his performance. He now carries a spare set and knows how to change them.

I haven't heard of anybody switching to Proflex and then going back to something else.

[bebi]

Thanks, Katz & Rusty. I should also mention that the Proflex model I had was the previous year's version (not this year's model). Hopefully, everyone here will not have similar issues. Before this all happened, I really did love the Proflex. 'Was a loyal Jackson customer for many years.

BTW, if you want to trip people out in your Proflex boots, walk around on your toes off the ice. :D

[katz in boots]

BTW, if you want to trip people out in your Proflex boots, walk around on your toes off the ice. :D

More likely to trip myself out :D
I've never had much practise at walking on my picks, on or off ice, so tend to be rather scared of it. I do intend to make friends with my picks on ice as I get used to the new skates. I must say, I do feel a little more comfortable with it, as it doesn't make my feet hurt when I do it in these.

[coskater64]

I have had my pro-flex boots for about six months, they were not easy to get used to but, my dancing and edging has improved. The boots require much more in the way of strength and good technique. I have found they soften my skating and I am rebuilding my power and speed of the past. Spinning took a while but once I learned to hold a long outside edge into all my spins the problems stopped.

I have never had boots last over a year so I always order a pair at about 10-11 months out. I think the boots overall are very good but you have to really develop a lot of strength around your ankles and outer muscles throughout your legs. You also have to have more core strength since the boot bends like your ankle naturally would, which means some breaking from the waist for axels and doubles.

:yum:

[Zac911]

Hi!

I totally share your feelings. Me too, I have just changed my skates, both boots and blades. Although I got the same boot, graf edmonton special, it seems that the old ones had become too soft, and now, the new ones, feel like ski boots!
Also, I changed from the MK phantom blade to Wilson gold seals.. The feeling is totally different. The result is that I feel very awkard: safer than before, but I cannot do anything correct - very unstable..

i cannot speak to the boots, but the blades are a little different-
MK Phantom is a 7ft Rocker vs the Wilson GS which is an 8 Rocker. anytime a skater changes Rocker there is definitely some adjustment time.

[Virtualsk8r]

Too bad that bebi's boots fell apart. I have skaters in the proflex boot - and they can't seem to wear them out! For those skaters whose feet have quit growing, the Proflex seems to be lasting forever. Mind you - we have had to change the wires on one pair, and send another in to have the tongue fixed - and another had the knob lose its locking ability. But the boots still hold even after more than a year of use by skaters doing triples.

I had a skater last week in a brand-new pair of Proflex land all her doubles and do full runthroughs - without missing a beat! Different blades as well. However, another skater at a higher level took a couple of weeks to get the triples working....and lower level skaters starting on doubles didn't even notice any difference. I guess it all depends upon the skater.

And yes - I carry a spare pair of wires to competitions (and learned how to change them the hard way following those difficult instructions - which took about an 1 1/2 for the first wire and 5 minutes for the second!!). I also carry a roll of white (or black for boys) duct tape too!!!

The best way to prevent the wire snapping in competition, is to regularly inspect the wire after every skate to see if the wire is starting to fray. The one wire I had break - after multiple triples were landed - was fraying prior and the skater did not inspect it or replace it!

[Jumper]

WOW Virtualsk8r!
I want my double-jumper daughter to try them at the next boot change time. Your post gave me hope she will be fine. I myself jump only single jumps and I have ajusted easily. I was worried about doubles. Do your skaters usually stay with Proflex? We have at the rink one girl and she likes them and stays with them, another one switched after struggling for a while with the fit. I like mine too but have problem with pronation on my right foot - can't seems to find right combination af arch-heel support/blade setting. I probably need orthotic but don't have resources for it.

[Virtualsk8r]

Most of my skaters wear custom orthotics in their skates - Proflex, too. However, I have some that don't (but should) and the well constructed footbed that comes with the Proflex seems to be all they need for pronation problems.

I think adjusting to the forward flex design of the Proflex is an individual thing. Both my national level skaters had different experiences. I have one skater who wanted to switch back to Riedells - but found them really strange and soft (they were old boots).

I'd say your dd would probably have a bit of a learning curve - depending upon at what stage her doubles are at - but would find the spins better and jumps higher. Triples take a bit longer to get the timing for, and the double axel tends to go but comes back strong once you figure out the press and release needed. Good luck with them!

PS If your foot is a strange size, custom Proflex can be ordered. Jackson boots tend to fit wide so if you have narrow feet, or a narrow heel - you may need to ask for customs, which may take a while to make so think ahead.

[GordonSk8erBoi]

I sympathize with you; I picked up my patch skates this past weekend and I was totally rocked by the difference. Almost disheartened, although I know that this will help me as a skater in the long run.

I'm skating sideways, can't catch a clean outside edge, and even stopping is a challenge. I don't think I could skate to the middle - I stayed on the sides the whole time. Mohawks and 3-turns were much easier, but an attempt at a bracket sat me on my bottom.

Sigh. Best laid plans of mice and men...

Hang in there, it has to get easier, right?

Wow, me too. I got my patch blades (Comet Test) mounted and got 'em back Sunday. Had them on for, what, 90 seconds and fell, LOL. Fell one more time in the 10 minutes I had 'em on. I was able to do a one-foot glide and that was about all. How do you stop in these things?!

[katz in boots]

Updating where I'm at since I started this thread, it's been about 4 weeks, I guess. Sorry to say, I am still struggling.

Both forward & back spins still weird. IF I can actually get down into one, I can do a change sit but back sits aren't as low as before. It's like I actually need the pressure of the front of the boot in an ordinary skate to get into the sit position. I'll ask coach to have a look at what I might be doing wrong here. Can't blame the boots for my camels, but they are coming back.

All jumps continue to feel uncomfortable and harder than before also nowhere near as high. I'm occasionally getting in a good flip or loop, or even a salchow, and I have landed some lutzes, but am not comfortable or confident.
Still not sure whether it is the flex of the boot or the blades/picks. I am blaming the blades/picks still.

Something weird about loops. I thought being able to point the toe would give me better spring upwards on edge jumps, however I sometimes feel I am taking off a loop somehow flat-footed instead of off the pick properly, and I have noticed another Proflex wearer doing loops that look like mine feel.
I suspect it may be a timing thing, the different rocker & picks, coupled with the extra flexion.

If I had the money I would have already ordered a pair of Phantom Special blades and listed the matrix freestyles on Ebay. But then, maybe I'd find it is more the boot than the blade that's causing my problems, who knows.

I want my skating to feel like it used to :(

[Jumper]

Something weird about loops.

Mine were strange at first too. On a first try I could not even lift up for a watz jump. Salchows were the hardest. Then I realised I have to roll forward to take off from toe and there is no more stiff tongue in the boots to help me. The boot is unforgiving if you dont roll up to your toes on take off. It takes a little bit but not too long to adjust. Practice heel raises in your sneakers and in skates too. Anyway this is how it should be done in any boots. My coach yelled at me for that when I was in Grafs. It felt like I'm raising just fine but only after switching to Proflex I've realised how right was she ;).

I actually changed also both boots and blades so I can feel your pain. :lol:

[Jumper]

Most of my skaters wear custom orthotics in their skates - Proflex, too. However, I have some that don't (but should) and the well constructed footbed that comes with the Proflex seems to be all they need for pronation problems.


Thanks a lot for you help. My DD has all of her doubles and started on 2axel. I guess I need to switch her before she gets it :)

I think I'm over my problem with pronation. I've put in arch cookie and a bit of heel lift and skated awesomely today. Even my Novice moves were so decent looking today.

Proflex medium fits me well in heel and toe but very flat and wide through arch area. Grafs were way tighter there.

[saras]

Wow, me too. I got my patch blades (Comet Test) mounted and got 'em back Sunday. Had them on for, what, 90 seconds and fell, LOL. Fell one more time in the 10 minutes I had 'em on. I was able to do a one-foot glide and that was about all. How do you stop in these things?!

it's totally a learning curve - !

to stop in patch blades. A. never go very fast in them. B. Backwards: roll gently forward to the bottom toepick (which is admittedly higher than in a FS blade). C. Forwards: never skid to a stop. Just glide to a stop. Or do a three turn and do version B. Or if you're gliding on your L, transition to some toe steps - R, L, R, stop.

Practice side-stepping to get a few feet over from where you are to where you want to be - rather than gliding - too.

They're way flatter than FS and Dance blades and it'll feel like you're slipping all over the place until you learn how to really get on the edge.

[icedancer2]

Oh, Gordon - I totally feel for you - I tried my patch blades again today and was able to do a little more in them than the first day (but not by much) - I could finally do a one-footed three-turn in them by the end of my little session with them but couldn't hold the exit edge without putting my foot down. These blades are not forgiving, BUT I could really feel where my body needed to be to get the edges right on the figures that I tried (mostly just outside and inside 8s - serpentine... BO 8) -- so that was great.

Still haven't doctored up my boots to make them more comfortable - I am totally falling into the tongues.. have to get that fixed.

As for stopping, I found I could do a T-stop just fine - except for it was really, really slow.

Good luck!
Lisa