Coaches...How do you teach jumps?

[BuggieMom]

I was talking with my friend at our rink, and she said that her dd's coach has been coming around to a new way of thinking about the progression of learning jumps. I thought it had some merit, but wanted to know what others thought...

My dd's coach has taught a straight line kind of progression: You learn waltz, then Salchow, then toe loop, loop, flip, lutz, Axel... basically in that order. It is not a hard and fast rule...you might get slightly out of order...but you build in roughly that order. No one learns a lutz before, say, a toe loop is kinda "mastered". And you wouldn't be taught a double lutz before a double toe...get the picture? While the jumps are all different, they tend to build upon each other in different ways, I guess...

My friend's coach has started coming around to the thinking that, if you have a strong single, there is no reason why you can't start on the double, even if you do not have the other single jumps, much less an Axel. The thought is, If your single is strong, you move to the double, no matter what other singles you have (or don't have). In theory, you could be working on a double Sal before you ever work on a Lutz, or a triple Sal before you ever start working on a double Lutz.

So, do you teach in a straight line progression? Or an individual jump progression?

[ibreakhearts66]

I was taught the same was your daughter was taught. That is the way I plan to teach jumps when I start coaching.

The idea of starting someone on say, a double sal, before they can do a loop is crazy to me. A double sal has more in common with a loop than a single sal, in a lot of ways. A single sal rotates pretty open, no need to cross your legs (as does the single toe). If you were to try a double sal without having the experience of crossing your legs in a jump (like in the loop, flip, lutz), you would really have no idea what you are doing. I know there are lots of coaches that have skaters work on double sals and axels (or double toes and axels) at the same time, since they both kind of feel the same. But I have yet to meet a coach that completely throw the "normal" order of jumping out the window. I'm sure you've seen a coach try to teach a skater an axel when they can barely do a loop, and I'm sure you've also feared for that skater's life on some of their falls...

Again, I don't coach. I do hope to start coaching, and right now I help other skaters with their jumps during free time and stuff (and have helped one girl a lot!), but I have never gone from teaching a skater singles to doubles. Maybe there are some circumstances where your friend's coach's approach would work, but I don't personally think it is a very good idea.

[FlyAndCrash]

I was taught with a mix of both. I started my double sal before I had a consistant axel and a double loop before landing a double sal or even touching a double toe. My coach much rather work on my double loop with me rather than a double toe (I've done multiple lessons on the loop, but only one on the toe).

With my singles though (except for the axle), I learned them mostly in "order" but may have started on the next one before the previous was consistent. With doubles, I think it also has to do with which jump the skater is more comfortable with. I am much more comfortable with my loop than my toe-loop.

[dbny]

I was taught with a mix of both. I started my double sal before I had a consistant axel and a double loop before landing a double sal or even touching a double toe.

Did you happen to have a strong backspin when you started doubles? IMO, without that backspin with freeleg crossed in front, you are going to have a very hard time getting an axel or any doubles.

[FlyAndCrash]

Did you happen to have a strong backspin when you started doubles? IMO, without that backspin with freeleg crossed in front, you are going to have a very hard time getting an axel or any doubles.

Yes. It's decent (usually). And I've been working on my flying camel, reverse entrances, and different change-foot combos.

[BuggieMom]

I was taught with a mix of both. I started my double sal before I had a consistant axel and a double loop before landing a double sal or even touching a double toe. My coach much rather work on my double loop with me rather than a double toe (I've done multiple lessons on the loop, but only one on the toe).

With my singles though (except for the axle), I learned them mostly in "order" but may have started on the next one before the previous was consistent. With doubles, I think it also has to do with which jump the skater is more comfortable with. I am much more comfortable with my loop than my toe-loop.

My dd has done things much like you...she started working on the next jump when she had a good working knowledge of the previous jump, whether it was consistent or not. They skipped 2 toe and did 2 loop and 2 flip before they went back and revisited the toe (which she still struggles with). That is still a roughly straight line progression.

Using my dd as an example...when she was learning her singles, she stalled at flip. Took the poor kid 4 months to get it. She had a fine sal, toe and loop, but was stuck at flip. If her coach had used an individual jump progression, she could have been working on 2 sal, 2 toe, and 2 loop, since they were strong and consistent...all while she had not landed a flip, or even touched on Lutz, much less Axel.

What I struggle with is while the idea sounds good in theory, I am not sure it is all that smart in practice. It SOUNDS logical, but thinking about the above example of my dd and her single flip stall, to me it would have been ludicrous for coach to start her on a 2 Sal before she landed that flip. But then again, the coach that espouses this idea, and has brought my friend's coach around to this thought, is a well known coach in this area, is master rated, has coached Jr. National champions and medalists, and National competitors. So what do I know? I am a mom, not a coach.

[sk8tmum]

Just thinking from the testing and competing perspective: given that the tests are based on the normal progression of jumps, then, achieving a double-sal before a flip would mean that you might have a problem passing the lower level test. This could be frustrating.

Also, I believe that competitions have jump restrictions (at least they do in Canada). You can't land certain doubles at certain levels, and you are only allowed a certain number. Thus, a Preliminary skater with a double-loop but no lutz or flip wouldn't be able to compete well, as they wouldn't be able to put the DL into the program, and would be expected, competitively, to be landing at least a flip.

I think that having the strong singles across the board is critical: good takeoffs, landings, and edges are key, and you get excellent practice at these when you are working on the singles. But, that's just my perspective as an observer.

[SynchroSk8r114]

Generally, I teach: bunny hops, waltz jump, 1/2 flip, salchow, toe loop, 1/2 lutz, loop, flip, lutz, axel, etc. I would not teach an axel until the skater has mastered a consistent backspin (position, weight distribution, landing leg motion, etc.) and can land a consistent single lutz.

This is the way I was taught and it did me just fine. Of course, not every kid is the same, so it's not a hard and fast rule of mine, but in general, that's the order I follow.

[kayskate]

In general, if a student can't do all of the basic singles (except axel) their skills are not strong enough to go on to doubles. I learned axel and 2sal together as well as 2loop and played w 2flip. I did best w 2sal. Everyone is different. So if the student is a strong jumper except for a nemesis jump, she could probably move on. However, IMO, most skaters do not have a strong enough sal to learn 2sal until they have more exp w jumping and have mastered more jumps. W the sal, in particular, it tends to be spinny, small, wild free leg, etc. A lot of that can be corrected and needs to be corrected as the skater gains understanding of jump mechanics, if not intellectually, then w body awareness. That happens by learning the other jumps in the sequence while continuing to improve the sal.

Kay

[doubletoe]

I can't imagine anyone starting on any double (or even an axel) before having a solid loop, flip and lutz. Without learning how to safely rotate backward over the landing side (which is what you master on the single loop, flip and lutz), how can you hope to do a correct double salchow, or even practice one safely? The earliest I'd ever find it reasonable for a skater to work on a double sal or double toe would be after mastering the salchow-loop and/or toeloop-loop.

[slusher]

I'm seeing a mix happening too. It used to be the strict progression method and now coaches are throwing everything in and seeing if there's potential in one jump stream over another.

[Mrs Redboots]

From what I've seen, and from things my coach has said, some people find edge jumps easier than toe jumps, and others are the reverse. And he said, too, that some people find double salchows very much easier than axels (he teaches the two more or less simultaneously), and others don't! I imagine the toe-jumpers find double toes easier than either.....

[Sessy]

At our club they seem to subscribe to the second school of thought. Some girls at the club practiced double flips before even trying doubles toes, and when I started to jump cw instead of ccw and wanted to learn the loop first, they were fine with that too.
Btw I've once seen a girl land a double axel who couldn't do a double flip or even a 1F-L-L-L. Go figure.

[Kim to the Max]

I was taught in what I would consider the more traditional school of thought...waltz/salcow/toe loop/loop/flip/lutz then all in combination...then moving on to axel...once the axel is close double sal... I have seen some variation in terms of order of double sal, toe, and loop. Some teach the double loop first because of the feeling of crossing the legs...

I can't imagine learning a double before you have a solid technique on the other single jumps. I think that a lot of them build off each other, the loop gets you into a cross legged position, which sets you up for a flip or lutz, etc.

Plus, I think that you need to have more power to do the doubles that is demonstrated by having large, solid singles.

The other thing to look at is the testing structure. If you are in the US and look at the standard track tests, there is a definite order to things. I would take a look at that...

[Schmeck]

USFSA Basic Skills teaches jumps in this order: waltz/toeloop/sal/loop/flip/lutz. My daughter stopped there, but she can almost get a 2flip (it's a 1 3/4 flip) but there's no axel or other doubles even close. If she went back to freestyle, I'd be guessing she'd get the 2flip around way before she gets her axel. Of all of her jumps, her flip is definitely the best - a lot of height and distance. She's definitely a toe jumper!

[sk8lady]

I wonder if this is an old school style of teaching? I had a couple of older coaches (and know of some other older coaches who teach the same way) who kept trying to get me to work simultaneously on my scratch, sit, camel, back sit, and back camel. I absolutely could not get my head around it and I think it delayed me in getting solid consistent spins--they only firmed up when I started with my current coach, who is twenty years younger than my last coach.

It might work for some kids but I wouldn't think it would make for a strong solid technique in everything.

[BuggieMom]

This particular coach is probably around the mid 30-early 40 range. I would hate to consider that old school, since that is MY age range! :giveup:

This coach is from Russia, though...wonder if that has something to do with it?

Using my dd as an example...when she was learning her singles, she stalled at flip. Took the poor kid 4 months to get it. She had a fine sal, toe and loop, but was stuck at flip. If her coach had used an individual jump progression, she could have been working on 2 sal, 2 toe, and 2 loop, since they were strong and consistent...all while she had not landed a flip, or even touched on Lutz, much less Axel.

Just wanted to add to this previous post of mine...this is only supposition on my part. I have never discussed this idea with the coach in question, just someone who was told about it by a student of this coach, and this may not be EXACTLY how it is done. A strong loop might be required at least before moving on. I got the impression it was not.

[climbsk8]

My learning progression was/is: waltz, toe loop, salchow, loop, flip, lutz, axel, double sal, axel, double loop, axel, double toe, axel, double flip ... well, you probably get my drift.

Most skaters have favorite jumps and/or jumps they struggle on. I was very comfortable learning double loop early, but not double toe. Luckily, my coach figured this out.

Because of that, I don't always agree with making a skater master one jump before progressing to another. I remember a coach who wouldn't even start the axel until her students had a completely consistent lutz. The axel takes a long time to learn usually, and the result was her students lagged behind other skaters at the rink and got frustrated when their friends were allowed to try something they weren't. Sometimes the kids took it into their own hands, trying to learn a flying camel on their own, for instance ... which is never good.

I do think it is CRUCIAL to have a solid back spin before the axel and double jumps are started. That's the most important progression, IMO.

[BuggieMom]

Because of that, I don't always agree with making a skater master one jump before progressing to another. I remember a coach who wouldn't even start the axel until her students had a completely consistent lutz. The axel takes a long time to learn usually, and the result was her students lagged behind other skaters at the rink and got frustrated when their friends were allowed to try something they weren't.

Master is a tough word...I don't think a jump needs to be "mastered" either, if mastered means perfect. But I would feel, if I were a coach, a certain level of competence needs to be demonstrated, so that, even if the jump is not landed consistently, the ability to land it is there.

My dd is feeling this frustration right now. She is working on all her doubles up to flip, and wants SO BAD to work on 2Lutz. Her coach said that she isn't ready for it, won't start her on it until her 2flip reaches some "magical" level known only to her! Her 2flip is not consistent, still cheated most of the time, but she shows competence in the technique, and it is just a matter of time until it is fine. She always feels like she lags behind all the others, and it frustrates her. I did a bad skate mom thing one day at a public session and let her try a few 2lutzs. First try, she landed upright on one foot at 1.5 rotations and hopped it around. Not bad for a first try! But *s-h-h-h*, don't tell her coach! ;)