Swing Dance Question

[double3s]

I tested (and passed!) Swing Dance this weekend, and got to see a few other people test and pass as well.

You know on the end pattern where the person going backwards steps to an FO edge, then to an FI edge? I was taught to make these two distinct edges and NOT to do a crossover. However one of the testers did it as a crossover. She did it twice, so it seems it was not a mistake, but the way she was taught to do it. She passed. (She skated it beautifully, so even if it was a "mistake" she probably skated well enough to pass anyway, especiallly at that level.)

So my question: Is it generally considered acceptable to do it as an XO? Does it vary by region? By judge?

[jskater49]

I tested (and passed!) Swing Dance this weekend, and got to see a few other people test and pass as well.

You know on the end pattern where the person going backwards steps to an FO edge, then to an FI edge? I was taught to make these two distinct edges and NOT to do a crossover. However one of the testers did it as a crossover. She did it twice, so it seems it was not a mistake, but the way she was taught to do it. She passed. (She skated it beautifully, so even if it was a "mistake" she probably skated well enough to pass anyway, especiallly at that level.)

So my question: Is it generally considered acceptable to do it as an XO? Does it vary by region? By judge?

I haven't seen it on the Swing Dance but I have seen more and more dances that have edges - people doing crossovers. In the Dutch Waltz, where I was taught, outside edge, inside edge on the end pattern--crossovers....Rhythm BLues - crossover where there are edges...Tango has crossovers thrown in...I guess that's the new thing now.

j

[phoenix]

I would do it the way it's described in the rulebook--ie, no crossover. When in doubt, go back to the source!

[dbny]

In the Dutch Waltz, you are allowed to do the FO, FI progressive style. Don't know about the other dances.

[Mrs Redboots]

I've never seen it done that way (congratulations on passing it, by the way - and envy!). But I don't quite see how it would work unless both partners did it as a progressive/run, and then that would make it awkward for the one doing the Mohawk, surely?

I have seen several variations on the Dutch Waltz - some people don't do the long cross at the very end of the dance, even.... but the pattern says that after the LFO/RFI run, it's LFO, RFO, LFI, and at the end it's LFO cross to RFI.... so....

[aussieskater]

I've never seen it done that way (congratulations on passing it, by the way - and envy!). But I don't quite see how it would work unless both partners did it as a progressive/run, and then that would make it awkward for the one doing the Mohawk, surely?

I have seen several variations on the Dutch Waltz - some people don't do the long cross at the very end of the dance, even.... but the pattern says that after the LFO/RFI run, it's LFO, RFO, LFI, and at the end it's LFO cross to RFI.... so....

The slow progressive at both sides of the short end of the Dutch is the way it's taught here (so coming up to the short end, you do a fast 2-1 right run, then 3-count RFO towards-ish the corner, then 3-3 left run around the corner, then a 2-1 left run, then 3-count LFO, then 6-count RF swing roll, then 3-3 left run at the end of the pattern). If you did any other pattern while testing and the judges noticed you would probably fail.

Re the Swing - we are taught it with two left runs after the step to forwards. You do the mohawk right out of the second run and I *hate* it. Re both partners doing runs at that point - yes, that's what happens, but the steps are 2 beats out of synch until the mohawk when they come back together again.

I've only just discovered that our ISA rule book does say that it's acceptable to do LFO then RFI without doing a run, in place of the second run. Makes doing the mohawk a whole lot easier! Problem is that I did that for Coach without saying anything and she (who is known to have eagle eyes) of course noticed and said that's not the way she teaches it and she wants the two runs. I foresee that it's going to be a while before I test that dance!

[jskater49]

In the Dutch Waltz, you are allowed to do the FO, FI progressive style. Don't know about the other dances.

But most of the time it is not a progressive, it's a crossover.

j

[Isk8NYC]

In the Dutch Waltz, you are allowed to do the FO, FI progressive style. Don't know about the other dances.
That's the way I learned it, but I skated the dance with someone a few weeks ago and he did the other steps. I was, of course, very confused. He used the cue words "fake left, fake right" at those steps. That was effective to get me to remember it on the next pattern.

[double3s]

Interesting - my coaches are VERY specific that those 4 edges on the Swing end pattern are edges (each held with good extension for the full two counts) and not XOs or progressives. They don't allow XOs/runs on Dutch Waltz either.

As an intersting/strange note, one of the judges wrote on my Swing test sheet "what those back runs." I'm like WHAT back runs???

Thanks for the responses!

[SynchroSk8r114]

As an intersting/strange note, one of the judges wrote on my Swing test sheet "what those back runs." I'm like WHAT back runs???

Interesting indeed. Perhaps he/she was talking about the back chasses (sorry, I think I def. spelled that wrong)? Still, that's a little odd coming from a judge, someone who's supposed to know these steps.

[jskater49]

There was a judge the argued with my coach that those edges were supposed to be crossovers! They got out the rule book and she reluctantly agreed that there was an "option" for edges!

I have never gotten a clear answer as to when they started doing crossovers but around here you see it more and more - to the point that newer judges are expecting it.

j

[CanAmSk8ter]

Interesting indeed. Perhaps he/she was talking about the back chasses (sorry, I think I def. spelled that wrong)? Still, that's a little odd coming from a judge, someone who's supposed to know these steps.

I wonder if the judge was indicating that the chasses (you did spell it right, BTW) looked like back progressives? If they're slurred and not super-neat I can see where they might.

There was a judge the argued with my coach that those edges were supposed to be crossovers! They got out the rule book and she reluctantly agreed that there was an "option" for edges!

I have never gotten a clear answer as to when they started doing crossovers but around here you see it more and more - to the point that newer judges are expecting it.

j

I learned the Dutch Waltz in 1993 with the cross on those steps. Within the last ten years or so, I've started seeing more skaters doing it without the cross. When I teach, I have my stronger skaters do it with the cross. With true beginners, I generally have them do the open strokes, simply because they can use both pushes to generate power. A lot of skaters at the Prelim level aren't great at getting a true "push" underneath quite yet.

[SynchroSk8r114]

I teach those steps as strokes as well. I don't know. I guess I'm very by-the-rulebook. Of course, if those particular steps are optional, then I guess there's no right way to do them. I'm just more comfortable putting my skaters out there with patterns/steps that are as close to the rulebook as possible, even when it comes to field moves. For instance, in the Juv. MIF level, I have my skaters do 5 lobes for the double threes because that's what the rulebook shows. But to each his own! :)

[jskater49]

I wonder if the judge was indicating that the chasses (you did spell it right, BTW) looked like back progressives? If they're slurred and not super-neat I can see where they might.



I learned the Dutch Waltz in 1993 with the cross on those steps. Within the last ten years or so, I've started seeing more skaters doing it without the cross. When I teach, I have my stronger skaters do it with the cross. With true beginners, I generally have them do the open strokes, simply because they can use both pushes to generate power. A lot of skaters at the Prelim level aren't great at getting a true "push" underneath quite yet.


All the coaches I've had that skated well before 93 learned it without the cross. If they do it like most beginners, as a crossover rather than a progressive, it's actually easier than the open strokes because that helps you turn the corner.

j

[Mrs Redboots]

Interesting - my coaches are VERY specific that those 4 edges on the Swing end pattern are edges (each held with good extension for the full two counts) and not XOs or progressives. They don't allow XOs/runs on Dutch Waltz either.

As an intersting/strange note, one of the judges wrote on my Swing test sheet "what those back runs." I'm like WHAT back runs???

Thanks for the responses!

Here, the NISA rulebook definitely calls for edges not XOs or progressives. And you have to be in shoulder hold, too, not hand-in-hand (some of the older skaters still do it hand-in-hand).

[RoaringSkates]

My coach tells me that it's a regional thing, and that when he skated in certain regions, he'd teach his students to do the cross, and in the northeast, he teaches them not to do that. It's all in what the judges expect, he explained.

[SynchroSk8r114]

My coach tells me that it's a regional thing, and that when he skated in certain regions, he'd teach his students to do the cross, and in the northeast, he teaches them not to do that. It's all in what the judges expect, he explained.

Interesting because I live in the northeast and I do not teach it with the cross.

[SynchroSk8r114]

My coach tells me that it's a regional thing, and that when he skated in certain regions, he'd teach his students to do the cross, and in the northeast, he teaches them not to do that. It's all in what the judges expect, he explained.

Sorry, double posted. But I'll just add that I definintely think that you almost have to cater to what the judges want in order to pass at times.

[icedancer2]

I just have to chime in here - one way of looking at this from my standpoint as a judge is: would the person doing a cross instead of a progressive step (or whatever) ESPECIALLY at this level, be enough to make me want to "Retry" the dance?

I think it's not so much that "judges in one region prefer this" but, say, looking at the entire dance, "Is it passing?". One little thing "wrong" (and arguably if it's caused this much discussion) will probably not make a dance a "Retry" at this level - it's when you have very many "little things" or really obviously not knowing the steps (doing a mohawk instead of a 3-turn) or having ABSOLUTELY no clue about timing, then the dance is a retry.

When you get to the Golds, yeah, they have to be perfect...

I think coaches spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the judges are thinking instead of just asking us, or maybe spending some time trial-judging just to see what it's like and having to make split-second decisions... it is not easy!

So even if you're not going for a judge apopintment, try trialing sometime...

[Query]

Just to be clear, I assume we are talking step 26 of the swing dance - see

http://www.uq.net.au/~zzbarneg/sk_swdance_fox.htm#ice

or more authoritatively (for USFSA)

https://www.usfsa.org/content/swing-dance.pdf


I wish to understand why would a crossover there be more awkwards than not? I haven't tested it, but I thought step 25 (the FO edge) was the awkwards one.

Based on the videos at

http://www.uq.net.au/~zzbarneg/sk_Ice_CDs.htm

it looks like even the best competitors at that level seperate there rather than come together as the pattern shows.

Are you worried the expected hand-in-hand position there is too stretched to allow a crossover?

[aussieskater]

Re Swing - it wasn't until I watched the videos and looked at the USFSA pattern on the .uq site (thanks Gerri!) that I realised that in the USA at least, there are no runs/progressives/XO's around the short end before the mohawk - they're 4 open strokes instead! And what's worse, I can no longer find the document to say that 2 open edges instead of the second progressive are acceptable locally, and I'm sure I saw it...so I guess I'm stuck with the second progressive.

If I could work out how to attach just the relevant page from our ISA rulebook, I would, but for anyone interested, here's the link for the book. The approved steps for the Swing are at Appendix D.

www.isa.org.au/technical.htm

[Mrs Redboots]

Well, the pattern on the .uq site is what would pass in the UK - no crossovers, runs or even progressives there!

Not that I will pass it until I can get that wretched mohawk both on pattern and on time - these days I can usually do one or the other, but not yet both!

ETA What tempo is it skated to in Australia? Here in the UK it is done to the Rocker Foxtrot tempo, which is 8 bpm faster than the standard US music, which always leads to problems at the Mountain Cup!

[aussieskater]

Well, the pattern on the .uq site is what would pass in the UK - no crossovers, runs or even progressives there!

ETA What tempo is it skated to in Australia? Here in the UK it is done to the Rocker Foxtrot tempo, which is 8 bpm faster than the standard US music, which always leads to problems at the Mountain Cup!

We skate the Swing to 96 beats per minute. Not sure how fast your Rocker is? (And I really wish we could skate the USFSA pattern too!)

[Mrs Redboots]

Rocker is 104 BPM. Which is the speed it's going to be danced at the Mountain Cup - I've been in touch with Barbara!