Other GC news

[phoenix]

Just thought I'd put up a thread for reports on other things passed---the new Moves elements/rules, program length, solo dance at Nationals, etc. Anyone with any news, please share!!

[sk8er1964]

It's not GC, but the ISU rules for next season are out.

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58644

[coskater64]

Well the field moves have been tabled, and are not going and according to the green sheets have been referred back to committee and will not be implemented.
8O

[Skittl1321]

Well the field moves have been tabled, and are not going and according to the green sheets have been referred back to committee and will not be implemented.
8O

That doesn't suprise me. The flip a coin thing really needs to be thought out a bit more. Hopefully the committe thinks of something.

[climbsk8]

Does this mean that the added difficulty in the moves tests will *not* be implemented this year? How about '09? I am working on novice moves and I don't want to waste my time on it, if I'll just have to learn something else.

Also, what is the "flip a coin" thing?

[phoenix]

Well the field moves have been tabled, and are not going and according to the green sheets have been referred back to committee and will not be implemented.
8O

8O8O If this is referring to the new elements, I'm surprised. They've been so hyped & shown & discussed, etc. Not necessarily disappointed, mind you, but surprised. I thought they added too much difficulty at Int. w/ all the twizzles, & doubles at that.

[Skittl1321]

Also, what is the "flip a coin" thing?

Part of the proposal was because of the added length of the tests the judge in charge would flip a coin at the beginning of the test session to determine the direction of the first move, and then the next move after that would start in the opposite direction, and so on. So skaters would only do one side of each move. This was supposed to save time on long tests, ice costs for clubs and skaters, and it would be a "fair" way of requiring that skaters practice and learn each side because they wouldn't know which side would come up on the test.

Except that it's not really a "fair" way- because judges have said that a strong side can "save" a just barely not there side- so skaters with bad luck might always flip their bad sides.

[icedancer2]

Part of the proposal was because of the added length of the tests the judge in charge would flip a coin at the beginning of the test session to determine the direction of the first move, and then the next move after that would start in the opposite direction, and so on. So skaters would only do one side of each move. This was supposed to save time on long tests, ice costs for clubs and skaters, and it would be a "fair" way of requiring that skaters practice and learn each side because they wouldn't know which side would come up on the test.

Except that it's not really a "fair" way- because judges have said that a strong side can "save" a just barely not there side- so skaters with bad luck might always flip their bad sides.

The flip a coin thing is just a really stupid idea from so many sides - I an see the utter confusion at test sessions - as if there isn't enough confusion as it is with double panels and all of that.

I'm wondering if they will pare the new Moves down a bit - it seems like a lot of coaches are going to have a lot of trouble teaching twizzles (which most have never done much) and loops (which also a lot of the newer coaches have never done/seen [sad, I know]).

[SynchroSk8r114]

Interesting about the proposed MIF. Is the possibility of the GC not adding/changing the levels confirmed?

[coskater64]

The proposed moves are listed as referred back to committee so that means they won't be voted on and won't be implemented. But, I did notice that I think one of them had been isolated for tomorrow, so we will see what we will see. I think they are going back to committee to be redone, since there has been no cost incurred so far, they are probably going to change the coin flip thing, and it seems that they may need a better reasoning than making the field moves matching current IJS moves. The wording was that the field moves were now relevant but I don't know if they worked for the audience. I liked the moves but as a test chair the coin flip thing would have been a nightmare.8O

[dbny]

The coin flip is absurd. Interestingly, the upcoming PSA Conference has a presentation on "Rollout of the NEW Moves in the Field - Focus on Power & Flow."

[slusher]

We do a coin flip in Canada for skills. On the preliminary test, there's 8 circle exercises, several coin flips determine which one you do. Skaters learn them all, it's good basic edgework, although the back edge circles are stupidly hard in comparision to the forward ones.

[coskater64]

They way it would have worked is one coin flipped would have set the direction for the entire test session so even if the test was Juv, Int, Nov, Jr or Sr if there was a move with two directions the first would be X way and then if there was a 2nd way but some tests have 1 and others have 3 keeping track over a 6 hour test session could be tricky.

8O

[phoenix]

Just saw it reported on ice dancers board that solo dance for adult nationals has been passed, for a 2 year trial. Making it permanent will depend on the number of participants. I'm planning to be there in GR next year!!! Can't wait to see what the dances are.

[climbsk8]

My coach told me in my lesson this morning that a coin toss used to be the norm for figure tests back in the day. So I guess there is a precedent ...

I'm also VERY glad there will be solo dance at AN next year. I'll probably sign up even though I have a partner, just to show my support for the idea.

[mr7740]

Can't wait to see what the dances are.

I am not sure if this is true, but I heard there will be Bronze, Silver, and Gold levels and the dances will mirror the dances for couples. I am not sure how this works with Bronze/Silver since I believe the dance teams do 4 dances and solo dance would be 2 dances, but it should match up with Gold. Also, I do not have a current rulebook, but I have heard the dances are already named in there. Does anyone know what the dances are?

[manleywoman]

My coach told me in my lesson this morning that a coin toss used to be the norm for figure tests back in the day. So I guess there is a precedent ...


Exactly, so I don't know why the coin flip idea is so controversial. One should be ambidextrous on both sides anyway. To me the flip thing was just like a draw at competitions: very few people like to skate first, but sometimes it's the luck of the draw.

[coskater64]

Well I do know they used to draw the figures for the figure event the day of the event when I did figures so I had to be able to do any 2-3rd test figure pretty much on demand.

That said, the coin flip idea was generally not liked during the field moves session but I don't think that was the reason for the new moves being referred. The speaker told us at the beginning of the meeting that it was about a 60/40 split for the moves, apparently that gap narrowed and they just thought it would be better to rework the moves and try again next year.

[Mrs Redboots]

Well I do know they used to draw the figures for the figure event the day of the event when I did figures so I had to be able to do any 2-3rd test figure pretty much on demand.When I started competing, they used to set three compulsory dances, and then would draw two of them to be skated when the draw for the competition was done. That was scary, as you never knew whether you would get the one dance of the three (and there always was one) that you couldn't do!

[phoenix]

I am not sure if this is true, but I heard there will be Bronze, Silver, and Gold levels and the dances will mirror the dances for couples. I am not sure how this works with Bronze/Silver since I believe the dance teams do 4 dances and solo dance would be 2 dances, but it should match up with Gold. Also, I do not have a current rulebook, but I have heard the dances are already named in there. Does anyone know what the dances are?

gold: Viennese Waltz, Silver Samba (is it even possible to solo that???)
silver: European Waltz, Tango, 14-step, Blues
Bronze: Swing Dance, Fiesta Tango, Willow Waltz, 14-step

[mr7740]

gold: Viennese Waltz, Silver Samba (is it even possible to solo that???)


Ugh, the Silver Samba has to be one of the most miserable dances to solo. I had been planning on competing solo dance, but I am not sure I want to devote the time to perfecting a solo of that dance. I will just hope that perhaps these won't be the dances. I would think the Silver Samba would drive away a lot of potential competitors.

[RachelSk8er]

I'm wondering if they will pare the new Moves down a bit - it seems like a lot of coaches are going to have a lot of trouble teaching twizzles (which most have never done much) and loops (which also a lot of the newer coaches have never done/seen [sad, I know]).

That is another good point about the MIF changes. I graduated from junior club/bridge program and started private lessons just as figures were being phased out and never had to do figures after the first test. I mainly did synchro with MIF and dance on the side, and even skating on a senior team never really had to do more than a single twizzle (and before IJS they didn't even have to be done properly, I'm sure most of us were doing double 3s and calling them twizzles), so it's really only been the past few years skating as an adult that I've had to work on them and that was because I was coaching and had to be able to teach my skaters to do them properly. And I literally learned how to do loops last year. No one ever did/taught them growing up once figures were gone.

Fortunately at my rink we do have enough "old school" coaches who either grew up doing figures or were already coaching back when they were still around, because you see all the kids now getting on the ice and just doing loop and twizzle drills for the first 10 minutes or so.

[RachelSk8er]

gold: Viennese Waltz, Silver Samba (is it even possible to solo that???)
silver: European Waltz, Tango, 14-step, Blues
Bronze: Swing Dance, Fiesta Tango, Willow Waltz, 14-step

What about pre-gold?

ETA: Never mind. Looks like Silver Tango and Blues. Darn it I hate the Tango (but I guess I'd rather do that than the Kilian), but the Blues is my favorite.

[phoenix]

What about pre-gold?


For the solo dance events they're only going to have bronze, silver, gold. Don't know how they'll set up the test requirements to determine which level you fall into. I might end up silver, might end up gold (I'm working on pre-golds).

[icedancer2]

For the solo dance events they're only going to have bronze, silver, gold. Don't know how they'll set up the test requirements to determine which level you fall into. I might end up silver, might end up gold (I'm working on pre-golds).

They are probably hoping for more entries if they keep the events broad.

Even though I'm working on Pre-Golds, I like the Bronze level best, although Silver is just fine, too...

[doubletoe]

They way it would have worked is one coin flipped would have set the direction for the entire test session so even if the test was Juv, Int, Nov, Jr or Sr if there was a move with two directions the first would be X way and then if there was a 2nd way but some tests have 1 and others have 3 keeping track over a 6 hour test session could be tricky.

8O

I realize it's slightly more complicated, but they could do a coin toss where Heads is odd numbered moves CCW and even numbered moves CW, and Tails is odd numbered moves CCW and even numbered moves CW. Each skater and judge already has so much to remember for these moves that I don't think it would be that big a deal once everyone got used to it.

[coskater64]

To skate in Bronze solo dance you have passed one pre-bronze dance but not more than one pre-silver dance. To skate in Silver solo dance you have passed one pre-silver dance but not more than one pre-gold dance.
To skate in Gold solo dance you have passed one pre-gold dance. As I am citing this from memory, I am not 100% sure but this is what I recall. There will only be 2 dances for each level one on the lower level then one on the higher level. It is a 2 year experiment if numbers aren't good it will go away at the end of 2 years, if numbers are good then hopefully it will be added to the roster of set events.8O

[vesperholly]

Personally, I think the wide range of dances might actually discourage people. I'm on my last Silver dance and plan on competing solo dance at the Silver level. I barely know the Blues (learned the Kilian first), but haven't done the Fourteenstep in years and years!

[RachelSk8er]

For the solo dance events they're only going to have bronze, silver, gold. Don't know how they'll set up the test requirements to determine which level you fall into. I might end up silver, might end up gold (I'm working on pre-golds).

Same boat with me. I'm almost ready to test my JR MIF and decided to put dance away for a little bit until I finish my senior MIF since I don't have time to work on dance, moves and freestyle. So maybe come applications for AN I'll still be low enough for silver (but I'm also not willing to hold back on tests if I'm ready).

Edit: Someone on IDOL said the dances would be different than what is on the chart for the couples, and they would be up on the adult section of the USFS site. (Not there yet.) So maybe gold will end up with one pre-gold and one gold (rather than a gold and an international), and silver won't end up with that odd pre-silver and pre-gold combination of the 14 and Blues.

[Stormy]

Hmmm....I am now officially back to age class I, YAY, and double YAY automatically a Gold skater from passing my Juvenile free last August (although I failed my Gold free back in December, go figure! :??) I'm still taking my Gold free again. I want that test, darnit!!

I admit, I am annoyed the double loop is no longer allowed in Gold. That's a good jump for me and I was looking forward to competing with it. Now I have to get a double toe? That's an impossible jump for me and I've never seriously worked on it. Argh. Maybe I'll just have to make do with 2 axels and 2 double sals? :frus:

[vesperholly]

I admit, I am annoyed the double loop is no longer allowed in Gold.
WHAT?! :evil: That's my closest "double" after the sal - and is sometimes better! Why did they take it out????

[Terri C]

I can't help but concur with Stormy and Vesperholly.
I was always under the impression that USFS wanted to maintain a high standard when it comes to the adult program and to Adult Nationals in particular.
So it totally befuddles me that there was a decision made to further limit what jumps could be done at the Gold level. Is this to encourage better in between skating and transitions or what?
What's next- banning the Axel in Silver or the lutz in Bronze?

[saras]

I can't help but concur with Stormy and Vesperholly.
I was always under the impression that USFS wanted to maintain a high standard when it comes to the adult program and to Adult Nationals in particular.
So it totally befuddles me that there was a decision made to further limit what jumps could be done at the Gold level. Is this to encourage better in between skating and transitions or what?
What's next- banning the Axel in Silver or the lutz in Bronze?

The rationale was b/c they split the Champ Masters into two groups - Int/Nov and Jr/Sr. The Int/Nov group has a jump limit too (2sal, 2toe, 2loop) - so the Gold dropped the 2loop and has a lower jump limit of 2sal, 2toe. The Int/Nov program max will I think be 3:10, and the Jr/Sr will stay at 3:40.

The goal is to encourage Gold skaters to move up once they've mastered the 2sal & 2toe, and to have a more gradual increase of skills (the prior Gold to Masters jump was pretty extreme).

No, banning of axels in Silver or lutzes in Bronz is not under consideration.

[Terri C]

The rationale was b/c they split the Champ Masters into two groups - Int/Nov and Jr/Sr. The Int/Nov group has a jump limit too (2sal, 2toe, 2loop) - so the Gold dropped the 2loop and has a lower jump limit of 2sal, 2toe. The Int/Nov program max will I think be 3:10, and the Jr/Sr will stay at 3:40.

The goal is to encourage Gold skaters to move up once they've mastered the 2sal & 2toe, and to have a more gradual increase of skills (the prior Gold to Masters jump was pretty extreme).

No, banning of axels in Silver or lutzes in Bronz is not under consideration.


Got the idea, thanks,
Since I'm only Pre Bronze ( may be Bronze in a week!) skater, I really don't keep up with these things.

[daisies]

Maybe I'll just have to make do with 2 axels and 2 double sals? :frus:
"Make do"? That's more than a lot of the Gold skaters are currently doing. In fact, you can pass your Intermediate FS test with those elements and move up to Masters Intermediate.

And that there's the rationale why double loop was taken out of Gold, why Championship Masters was split, and why Open Masters Intermediate was created. Skaters need incentive to move up and clear out the logjam that currently exists in the lower levels.

[Stormy]

The rationale was b/c they split the Champ Masters into two groups - Int/Nov and Jr/Sr. The Int/Nov group has a jump limit too (2sal, 2toe, 2loop) - so the Gold dropped the 2loop and has a lower jump limit of 2sal, 2toe. The Int/Nov program max will I think be 3:10, and the Jr/Sr will stay at 3:40.

The goal is to encourage Gold skaters to move up once they've mastered the 2sal & 2toe, and to have a more gradual increase of skills (the prior Gold to Masters jump was pretty extreme).

No, banning of axels in Silver or lutzes in Bronz is not under consideration.

I agree with the splitting of Masters, although it does make it a lot more confusing. That's ONLY for Championship, correct? Open Masters Novice, Jr, Sr is still the same? Now at Sectionals, there will be two Champ Masters events instead of one?


And Daises, not really....I don't think I'm being overly ambitious here. I had two axels in my Silver II program, one in combo. Two axels and two double sals at Gold isn't over the top. Sure, I could try to pass my Intermediate FS and do Masters Int/Novice, but I'd like to try Gold first. I'll be curious to see this coming season how this new champ level works out and just how many gold skaters move up.

[vesperholly]

I didn't even realize that splitting up Championship Masters was on the table this year - I thought it was just under discussion. So, the levels are:

Championship Gold (2sal/2toe)
Championship Int/Nov Masters (up to 2loop)
Championship Jr/Sr Masters (no jump restrictions)

???

[Stormy]

From the Yahoo competitive adult skaters group, which I only now have had time to look through:

"Currently, Championship Masters is 7 jumps, 4 spins, one step/spiral
sequence, max time 3:40. That remains the same for the new
Championship Masters Jr/Sr. But Championship Masters Int/Nov will be
7 jumps, 3 spins (instead of 4), one step/spiral sequence, and the
time will be 3:10 instead of 3:40. In addition, the Championship
Masters Int/Nov skaters will be limited to three doubles: salchow,
toe loop and loop.

This does not replace the open events, which continue to be split by
age. There are changes though, including the creation of an Open
Masters Intermediate event. Both Open Masters Intermediate and Open
Masters Novice's WBP and max time are the same as their corresponding
Championship event.

To be clear, this was not proposed on the floor. It was just
submitted too late to make it into the book that delegates received
ahead of time. It was created by a subcommittee on the adult skating
committee, voted on by the adult skating committee and passed by the
board of directors prior to the start of GC."

[daisies]

I agree with the splitting of Masters, although it does make it a lot more confusing. That's ONLY for Championship, correct? Open Masters Novice, Jr, Sr is still the same? Now at Sectionals, there will be two Champ Masters events instead of one?
Yes, Championship was split -- Int/Nov and Jr/Sr. The open events remain, with the addition of Masters Intermediate. WBP and max time remain the same for Championship Jr/Sr and open Jr. and Sr. WBP for Championship Masters Int/Nov is one less spin than Jr/Sr, and max time is 30 seconds shorter, at 3:10.

And Daises, not really....I don't think I'm being overly ambitious here. I had two axels in my Silver II program, one in combo. Two axels and two double sals at Gold isn't over the top. Sure, I could try to pass my Intermediate FS and do Masters Int/Novice, but I'd like to try Gold first. I'll be curious to see this coming season how this new champ level works out and just how many gold skaters move up.
I didn't say it was over the top. I was commenting on your frustration (the emoticon you posted) and your use of the phrase "make do," as if it wasn't enough.

I don't expect a lot of moving up in the first year. If there is, great. But anyone in Gold who wants to move up has to pass the Intermediate moves, if they haven't done so already, before they take the FS test, and that test is no walk in the park. I think it will be awesome if we see a lot move up, and I hope too that it brings back some skaters we lost over the years.

[Stormy]

Ah, my bad! I misunderstood. :) Thanks for the clarifications on the splitting of the levels!

[daisies]

No prob, Stormy. Good luck!

[coskater64]

As a former silver skater who did 3 axels in her program, solo and then axel toe tap axel I think this progression works nicely. Skated gold for 3 years and managed to do nicely with very inconsistent doubles but a good axel. Passing my Int FS at 41 was actually something of a miracle, I failed it when I was 18 so it was a very big deal, and even though I always came in last in champ masters I did it because I wanted to work on my skating skills and become a better skater.

Even if I can only do singles I will do the new champ event because I have moved through the levels and I think this is a group where I can skate a program that is a good challenge for me. I will most likely never make it out of the section like I did at gold but hopefully more people will feel that it is a doable event that rewards good clean skating with a focus on being a well balanced skaters. Isn't that what everyone strives for?

:D:D

[vesperholly]

As a former silver skater who did 3 axels in her program, solo and then axel toe tap axel
Isn't that illegal?

[NoVa Sk8r]

It *is* illegal, but *wasn't* illegal when Leslie competed at the gold level. That is, the "each jump may be repeated once, but only as part of combo or
sequence (maximum of 2 of any jump)" provision was not yet in effect. (Or am I remembering the old rules incorrectly?)

ETA: Yup, here are the rules from 2006:
http://sk8stuff.com/f_rules/singles_long_adu_std.htm

[mr7740]

WHAT?! :evil: That's my closest "double" after the sal - and is sometimes better! Why did they take it out????

Yes, it is unfortunate for skaters who can do double loop, but not the other two. I doubt this is very many skaters, but you never know.

When I was learning doubles my first consistent double was the loop, which I could do at least a year before the salchow was consistent. Oh well, if it becomes an issue they could allow only 2 different doubles at these levels. Yet that would likely create even more problems and would just be confusing. Just a thought - it doesn't affect me as I passed all of my tests over ten years ago and would be surprised if AN ever gets enough former elite skaters to justify splitting masters in that way!

[manleywoman]

WHAT?! :evil: That's my closest "double" after the sal - and is sometimes better! Why did they take it out????

If it's only just "close" for you, then you wouldn't want to try it in Gold or above anyway. You'll get nailed for the under-rotation in IJS. Best wait until it's ready. :yum:

Some Silver skaters have an axel.
Some Gold skaters have through 2toe.
Most Masters skaters have 2flip and 2lutz (in combo!).

Seems to me that there was room for a level inbetween.

I've been hearing for YEARS about how people wanted an Intermediate level as a better segue between Gold and Masters. Now there is one!

[NoVa Sk8r]

I've been hearing for YEARS about how people wanted an Intermediate level as a better segue between Gold and Masters. Now there is one!So this new group is really the Platinum level?! 8-)

[TimDavidSkate]

The rationale was b/c they split the Champ Masters into two groups - Int/Nov and Jr/Sr. The Int/Nov group has a jump limit too (2sal, 2toe, 2loop) - so the Gold dropped the 2loop and has a lower jump limit of 2sal, 2toe. The Int/Nov program max will I think be 3:10, and the Jr/Sr will stay at 3:40.

The goal is to encourage Gold skaters to move up once they've mastered the 2sal & 2toe, and to have a more gradual increase of skills (the prior Gold to Masters jump was pretty extreme).

No, banning of axels in Silver or lutzes in Bronz is not under consideration.

Is there a link to the updated rules (pdf) ~ from GC ?

Thanks in advance :halo:

[vesperholly]

If it's only just "close" for you, then you wouldn't want to try it in Gold or above anyway. You'll get nailed for the under-rotation in IJS. Best wait until it's ready. :yum:
True. I'm not even moving up to Gold yet - I want to land my axel in competition first.

I've been hearing for YEARS about how people wanted an Intermediate level as a better segue between Gold and Masters. Now there is one!
I do think it's great. I'm just bemoaning my double loop going totally out the window. :( Then again, once I can reliably do a 2sal, I'll be taking my Intermediate free ASAP anyhoo! :D

[jenlyon60]

So I can answer the question for a friend of mine,

I can't remember, were these changes declared urgent or do they go in effect in September as with the other non-urgent items?

[RachelSk8er]

From the Yahoo competitive adult skaters group, which I only now have had time to look through:

"Currently, Championship Masters is 7 jumps, 4 spins, one step/spiral
sequence, max time 3:40. That remains the same for the new
Championship Masters Jr/Sr. But Championship Masters Int/Nov will be
7 jumps, 3 spins (instead of 4), one step/spiral sequence, and the
time will be 3:10 instead of 3:40. In addition, the Championship
Masters Int/Nov skaters will be limited to three doubles: salchow,
toe loop and loop.

This does not replace the open events, which continue to be split by
age. There are changes though, including the creation of an Open
Masters Intermediate event. Both Open Masters Intermediate and Open
Masters Novice's WBP and max time are the same as their corresponding
Championship event.

To be clear, this was not proposed on the floor. It was just
submitted too late to make it into the book that delegates received
ahead of time. It was created by a subcommittee on the adult skating
committee, voted on by the adult skating committee and passed by the
board of directors prior to the start of GC."

That's a good change that will help possible movement from gold into masters int/novice. Going from a 2:40 program in gold to a 3:40 program was kind of a big jump, but the 3:10 is a much better transition.

[FrankR]

That's a good change that will help possible movement from gold into masters int/novice. Going from a 2:40 program in gold to a 3:40 program was kind of a big jump, but the 3:10 is a much better transition.

I agree. In addition, having thirty more seconds to work with while having one less spin in the WBP requirements makes it a bit easier to play with moves in the field and choreography between elements.

[TimDavidSkate]

Im actually relieved that I dont have to re-learn the 2loop ever again.
I just have to get back my 2sal and re-visit working on the 2toe.

[daisies]

So I can answer the question for a friend of mine,

I can't remember, were these changes declared urgent or do they go in effect in September as with the other non-urgent items?

They were not declared urgent. They go into effect Sept. 1.

[fractals]

Does anyone know if the collegiate $70 / 4 years membership proposal passed at GC?

[Sylvia]

Does anyone know if the collegiate $70 / 4 years membership proposal passed at GC?
Yes, I heard this did pass.

[NoVa Sk8r]

The Combined Report of Action is now available:
http://usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=41488

(A bunch of significant changes to adult skating!)

[skaternum]

Interesting. Here's what they did with the Adult Pairs requirements:

-----------------------------------------------------------
122. APPROVED - Adult Skating Committee [as amended by the Governing Council] to amend rules 4120 (page 317), 4122 (page 319), and 4124 (page 320) by substituting new language for the test eligibility requirements for the adult gold, silver, and bronze pairs events as shown:

RULE 4120 - ADULT GOLD PAIRS (p. 317)
One partner in the adult gold pairs event must have passed one of the following tests:
• The adult gold pairs test but not the standard intermediate pairs test
• The adult gold free skate test
• The standard juvenile pairs test and no higher standard pairs test
• Any standard free skate test at the intermediate juvenile level or higher
The other partner must meet the requirements for this level or must have passed no less than one level lower (i.e., adult silver pairs test, adult silver free skate test, standard preliminary pairs test and/or standard juvenile free skate test).

Pairs teams in which at least one member has passed the standard juvenile or adult gold pairs test may choose to compete at the adult gold pairs level even if one or both members of the team have passed a master’s-level free skate test (i.e., standard intermediate free skate or higher).

RULE 4122 - ADULT SILVER PAIRS (page 319)
One partner in the adult silver pairs event must have passed one of the following tests:
• The adult silver pairs test and no higher adult pairs test
• The adult silver free skate test but no higher than the adult gold free skate test
• The standard pre-juvenile free skate test but no higher than the standard juvenile free skate test

The other partner must meet the requirements for this level or must have passed no less than one level lower (adult bronze pair test, adult bronze free skate test, and/or standard preliminary free skate test).

Either member of an adult silver pairs team may have passed the standard preliminary pairs test, but not the standard juvenile pairs test.

Pairs teams in which at least one member has passed the adult silver pairs test may choose to compete at the adult silver pairs level, even if one or both members of the team have passed the next level free skate
test (i.e., adult gold free skate test and/or standard juvenile free skate test).

RULE 4124 – ADULT BRONZE PAIRS (page 320)
Each partner in the adult bronze pairs event must have passed one of the following tests:
• The adult bronze pairs test and no higher adult pairs test
• The adult bronze free skate test but no higher than the adult silver free skate test
• The standard preliminary pairs test and no higher standard pairs test
• The standard preliminary free skate test but no higher than the standard pre-juvenile free skate test

Pairs teams in which at least one member has passed the standard preliminary pairs test and/or the adult bronze pairs test may choose to compete at the adult bronze pairs level, even if one or both members of
the team have passed the next level free skate test (i.e., adult silver free skate test and/or standard prejuvenile free skate test).
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So, this is weird and complicated. Applying my own situation to this, here are the tests we've passed (discounting MITF):

Me:Silver FS
Him: Juvenile FS

Based on the above, it looks like we would compete in Silver Pairs. And we could be competing against 2 Gold level singles skaters. Fine with us, but weird. And those Gold level singles skaters could also choose to skate in Gold Pairs if they want. Weird.

[flo]

The adult pairs competiton qualifications have been a moving target. I spent one summer passing the adult pair tests to catch up with my standard pairs level and the next season they gave equivalents for the standard pair tests.

Gold and staying gold.

[doubletoe]

The Combined Report of Action is now available:
http://usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=41488

(A bunch of significant changes to adult skating!)

Thanks for the link! BTW, for those of you looking for the adult changes, they are on pages 13 and 30.

[FREESK8ER]

Adults,
Does anyone know when the programs are going to change from 1:40 to 1:50 for bronze FS. I'm thinking of cutting new music soon.
Also. are the age groups redifined for this season starting in July????
I was a 4, now I'll be a 3
What is the scoop on solo dance? I'm only in bronze now but in the Rocker Foxtrot the mans steps do not have a rocker. Should they make all skaters skate the more difficult womans steps??:roll:

[doubletoe]

Adults,
Does anyone know when the programs are going to change from 1:40 to 1:50 for bronze FS. I'm thinking of cutting new music soon.

As far as I know, new rules approved at Governing Council take effect September 1, so you'd be allowed up to 1:50 in any competition September 1 or later, and 9/1 would also be the cutoff for the new age groups. But each competition has its own rules so read the announcement carefully and ask the registrar or referee if the announcement doesn't answer your questions adequately.

[icedancer2]

What is the scoop on solo dance? I'm only in bronze now but in the Rocker Foxtrot the mans steps do not have a rocker. Should they make all skaters skate the more difficult womans steps??:roll:

I don't know ANYTHING but I would hope that when they choose the dances for solo dance they will take this into consideration. The man's steps on a LOT of the dances are easier than the woman's, especially in the Pre-Silver through Silver Dances - like the Rocker... The American and Tango have similar steps for man and woman, as does the European Waltz.

But the 14-step, Rocker and Foxtrot - the woman has the harder steps. Generally.

Actually the Starlight (now Pre-Gold) - the man's part is WAY easier than the woman's. If they choose that dance, I would like to do the man's steps because there is no way I can go into that mohawk on the end-pattern solo.

[Terri C]

Adults,
Does anyone know when the programs are going to change from 1:40 to 1:50 for bronze FS. I'm thinking of cutting new music soon.
Also. are the age groups redifined for this season starting in July????
I was a 4, now I'll be a 3

From my experience, most competitions in the summer utilize the rule changes for the upcoming season. I know that the first adult comp for the season, Peach Classic, e-mailed their past participants asking for a vote on which age categories to use. I'd check announcements before anything though.

[rlichtefeld]

From my experience, most competitions in the summer utilize the rule changes for the upcoming season. I know that the first adult comp for the season, Peach Classic, e-mailed their past participants asking for a vote on which age categories to use. I'd check announcements before anything though.

We are using the new age groups and the 1:50 max for Bronze.

The announcements are up on the website, and I hope to email everyone today/tonight.

http://www.gafsc.org/peachclassic

Rob
(Yep, I'm chairing this mess again!)

[phoenix]

What is the scoop on solo dance? I'm only in bronze now but in the Rocker Foxtrot the mans steps do not have a rocker. Should they make all skaters skate the more difficult womans steps??:roll:

Any solo dance competition I've ever seen, each gender does their own steps. This is even done at the Lake Placid dance competition, where they generally do have a couple of boys doing solo dance. Cest le guerre. *shrug*

[SynchroSk8r114]

Any solo dance competition I've ever seen, each gender does their own steps. This is even done at the Lake Placid dance competition, where they generally do have a couple of boys doing solo dance. Cest le guerre. *shrug*

I can atest to that at the collegiate level (competition) as well. I recall a male asking if he could actually skate the female's steps (of the Viennese, I believe) for that very reason--because he felt it'd be more "equal" that way--and his request was turned down. He skated the male steps against twelve other women doing their steps...and he won. Honestly, though, I don't think he won because his steps were "easier," but because he was a darn good dancer!

[icedancer2]

Any solo dance competition I've ever seen, each gender does their own steps. This is even done at the Lake Placid dance competition, where they generally do have a couple of boys doing solo dance. Cest le guerre. *shrug*

We had a solo dance competition last year at one of our non-qualifyings here in Portland. Six adults solo'd the Westminister Waltz. Two of them did one pattern of their own gender's steps followed by a pattern of the other gender's steps. I don't remember who won, but I thought that was a unique solution to the "problem".

All of them are very good dancers, BTW.:)

[Mrs Redboots]

Any solo dance competition I've ever seen, each gender does their own steps. This is even done at the Lake Placid dance competition, where they generally do have a couple of boys doing solo dance. Cest le guerre. *shrug*
Indeed, and when Husband dances solo, as he sometimes does, he is still unable to beat certain skaters (you know who you are!) and would dearly, dearly love to. But ain't gonna happen, not yet awhile....

[Black Sheep]

We are using the new age groups and the 1:50 max for Bronze.

The announcements are up on the website, and I hope to email everyone today/tonight.

Is the Max time for Master's Interp. events 2:10 for EVERY competition now, or just for Peach Classic?

[daisies]

Is the Max time for Master's Interp. events 2:10 for EVERY competition now, or just for Peach Classic?
Not for every competition. Adult Nationals and Adult Sectionals is still 1:40. Open competitions such as Peach Classic have the discretion to choose whatever max time they want.

[rlichtefeld]

Is the Max time for Master's Interp. events 2:10 for EVERY competition now, or just for Peach Classic?

Just the Peach, AFAIK. We did this for someone a few years back who asked us to. In the text above interp (under Music), we do say that this time is not the same as the time for AN.

Remember ALL TIMES for adults are MAX TIMES. There are no deductions if you program is shorter.

I once skated a Bronze program for a Silver event, when there weren't any other Bronze guys at an event. And, I actually did pretty well.

Rob

[w.w.west]

Just the Peach, AFAIK. We did this for someone a few years back who asked us to. In the text above interp (under Music), we do say that this time is not the same as the time for AN.

Remember ALL TIMES for adults are MAX TIMES. There are no deductions if you program is shorter.

I once skated a Bronze program for a Silver event, when there weren't any other Bronze guys at an event. And, I actually did pretty well.

Rob

Wyandotte has offered it for the past two years. We also state in the announcement that it is not for AN or AS. Looks like we will also have to closely look at prop rules again judging by what some skaters were doing in interp programs. Looks like yet another "clarification" is needed for skaters "pushing the envelope" on things. Ah well....makes it interesting I guess.

[jskater49]

Well the field moves have been tabled, and are not going and according to the green sheets have been referred back to committee and will not be implemented.
8O

Yea and my daughter went to the PSA conference this weekend and they already had seminars planned where she learned the moves that didn't pass :roll:

j

[techskater]

The argument against the moves is that < 2% of all skaters who start actually pass their Senior MIF and < 1% pass their Senior FS. If the Senior MIF become much more difficult, the kids who stay in to "test out" before finishing HS may drop the sport sooner. The argument that was used for proponents of the new MIF changes is that their are more and more younger kids testing out with tests that are marginal and are given the benefit of the doubt.

[mdvask8r]

. . . The argument that was used for proponents of the new MIF changes is that their are more and more younger kids testing out with tests that are marginal and are given the benefit of the doubt.
So the coaches & judges need to address the issue of consistantly upholding the standards and not passing these marginal tests. I know that in years gone by, it was not unusual for young skaters to get a retry with a comment such as, "performance lacks maturity." Seems to me that this comment needs to be applied to many of the tests that 'pass' today. Senior level implies mature, developed performance skills, not just doing the steps.

JMO, but if they are going to make changes in the upper-level tests, I wish they would make the patterns more fs-session friendly. It's nigh on to impossible to practice those diagonal patterns on anything but a deserted session. How many skaters can afford to buy private ice to perfect these moves to the standard to which they should be held?

[doubletoe]

So the coaches & judges need to address the issue of consistantly upholding the standards and not passing these marginal tests. I know that in years gone by, it was not unusual for young skaters to get a retry with a comment such as, "performance lacks maturity." Seems to me that this comment needs to be applied to many of the tests that 'pass' today. Senior level implies mature, developed performance skills, not just doing the steps.

JMO, but if they are going to make changes in the upper-level tests, I wish they would make the patterns more fs-session friendly. It's nigh on to impossible to practice those diagonal patterns on anything but a deserted session. How many skaters can afford to buy private ice to perfect these moves to the standard to which they should be held?

From my experience, when Jr. or Sr. moves are being practiced at or near passing standard, people tend to get out of the way, LOL!

[FlyAndCrash]

From my experience, when Jr. or Sr. moves are being practiced at or near passing standard, people tend to get out of the way, LOL!

Totally agree. We usually defer to higher-level moves during moves ice and sometimes on fs ice depending on the coach/lesson status/awareness. The rational is the their patterns are very hard to start over and complex. It's much easier to start FI/BO 3-turns again on the next lobe than the senior quickstep... And many of the coaches have students that are skating those patterns not on lesson, so they want to give their students the best ice possible.

I don't usually have a problem with this because I mostly skate on the ends of the arena and am smart enough to know when a pattern is being skated... However, I have heard that starting a pattern can be difficult.

[techskater]

We have issues with our DANCERS getting in the way of these patterns (even the Novice spiral pattern) because a few don't know any of the moves patterns at all. I've aborted that spiral pattern more times than I care to admit and have watched my training partner abort the Junior power pulls because of the same peoples.

[doubletoe]

Totally agree. We usually defer to higher-level moves during moves ice and sometimes on fs ice depending on the coach/lesson status/awareness. The rational is the their patterns are very hard to start over and complex.

I think our rationale is just that we're afraid of getting run over. :lol: But yeah, I can imagine it's hard to get started on a pattern with people in the way and not yet aware of what you're doing. . .

We have issues with our DANCERS getting in the way of these patterns (even the Novice spiral pattern) because a few don't know any of the moves patterns at all. I've aborted that spiral pattern more times than I care to admit and have watched my training partner abort the Junior power pulls because of the same peoples.

Ugh! I hear you. Unfortunately, our new teenage dance couple is completely oblivious to everything but their own pattern. Thanks to them, I had to abort the second half of my spiral sequence while skating my program last week.:roll:

[sk8er1964]

The argument that was used for proponents of the new MIF changes is that their are more and more younger kids testing out with tests that are marginal and are given the benefit of the doubt.

Where is this attitude coming from? Back when I was a kid, the gosh-darn figures had to be pretty much perfect to pass - and you had to pass all of the patterns, IIRC. Now with the moves, I see kids working on their Novice when I wonder how in the heck they ever got past Preliminary with such poor skating technique. This crosses clubs, btw, so cannot be attributed to a particular club's policies.

Is it that some of the coaches don't really understand good edges and turns now that figures are gone and they have never done them? Is it that synchro has become so popular and judges are passing kids so that they can make the next higher team? (No slam on synchro - I know what they do is difficult - just wondering if there's a numbers game going on.) Is it because there's a feel good mentality nowadays?

[vesperholly]

The argument that was used for proponents of the new MIF changes is that their are more and more younger kids testing out with tests that are marginal and are given the benefit of the doubt.
That's a double-edged sword in which the second edge hasn't been talked about at all: More marginal and even lower quality tests will go out because the kids can't do the more difficult moves well but still try to test, and the standard will drop yet further. It's a problem that needs to be addressed on the judges' end, not the skaters' end.

[techskater]

I agree with the last two posts here in their entirety.

Skater1964, I see it a few states away as well with kids working on MIF that should have gotten a retry a few tests back because they have no sense of edge (and I am talking as low as Prejuv). The newer coaches coming up don't understand the real meaning of the moves and the quality is dropping. I don't know that I'd attribute it to Synchro because the kids on Jazz and Starlights here really spend a lot of time on these moves tests before they go out. What I DO see around our rinks are kids that are racing with one another to pass the tests and parents who get angry when little Johnny takes their test and their little Suzy doesn't which puts pressure on coaches to put tests out that are against their better judgment that PASS!

[jenlyon60]

I have also seen coaches "club-hop" with their students when judges do try to uphold standards. Happens quite a bit in my neck of the woods.

[pairman2]

I haven't watch too many tests just in the past year, but in the past few years I have, and just as often as not, judges in this area (MD, DE, southern PA seem to be getting a little tougher. Maybe a couple slip through that shouldn't but I don't think there's any major negligence. I do know some very frustrated skaters that are stuck on a particular MIF test 2-3-4+ times!

[SynchroSk8r114]

Is it that some of the coaches don't really understand good edges and turns now that figures are gone and they have never done them?
Yes, I believe so. I can definitely see a difference between those kids who have done figures (as few as there are anymore) and those who haven't. Even though I am a young coach, I had to do figures growing up--there was no getting out of that one. Looking back, I'm so glad I had to. I love figures and I think it teaches quite a few things that some kids just can't pick up from MIF alone.

Is it that synchro has become so popular and judges are passing kids so that they can make the next higher team? (No slam on synchro - I know what they do is difficult - just wondering if there's a numbers game going on.)

I'll just say that at my rink there are an Intermediate, a Preliminary, and a Pre-Juvenile team that I see having problems with this. Many of these kids are "aging-out" of certain teams, yet do not have the required tests passed to progress to a higher level team. Oddly enough, it's not the coaches I see pushing for the kids to pass tests for synchro-related reasons so much as I see the parents doing it! At least at the rink I coach at, there is a definite competition between parents for their child to be the one to pass a MIF first, or rather to stay a level or two above the required MIF for a certain synchro level. It even goes so far as parents pushing their children to stay a level behind or the exact level as their child's friend simply so they don't "fall behind" and not make the team. It's quite frustrating really...

[Ellyn]

JMO, but if they are going to make changes in the upper-level tests, I wish they would make the patterns more fs-session friendly. It's nigh on to impossible to practice those diagonal patterns on anything but a deserted session.

I have occasionally seen some skaters practicing those moves (the power pulls more than the choctaws) down the sides of the rink rather than on the diagonals. Probably when they're still in the process of learning the moves in pieces and don't yet have the power to need the full length of the diagonal or the confidence to command it.