Repeating jumps for Adults

[joysk8]

This question may have been asked in an old threat but with Adult Nationals just 360 or so days away - I'd like to try to get a clear answer. (I am a silver level skater by the way.)

I believe that it states somewhere in "the rules" that a jump may be repeated once but only in combination. As it stands, a flip/loop comes first in my program --- then a lutz/loop/loop -- God willing. Is this allowed?? Will they simply not count the second loop of the lutz combo. or does the whole combination get eliminated if I've done too may loops by then......Finally, even if we come up with an answer here, how likely is it that ALL of the judges will interpret this rule the same way.

Lastly, how many times can I use the word loop in a paragraph??? Ha Ha Thank you for any input you all may have.

[daisies]

Well, in IJS, your lutz/loop/loop would be completely eliminated. But under 6.0, the penalty is 0.2 off the 1st mark for every jump or spin over the maximum. It's not open for interpretation -- it's the rule listed on the Well Balanced Program requirements.

Speaking as a skater and a judge, my advice to you would be not to do that third loop. Make it a lutz/loop/toe if you already don't have two toe-loops.

[joysk8]

Daisies, Thank you so much for your reply, especially since you are a judge - I now have confidence that everyone is on the same page. To pick your (and others') brain more - is the lutz/loop/loop considered the highest level jump-type element short of an axel ? Also, which would be considered a higher level approach ---- a flip/loop then a lutz/loop/toe or lutz/loop/loop and just a flip/toe loop ????? I always remember admiring those with lutz/loop/loops. Anyway, Thanks again for any help !!!!!!

[RachelSk8er]

You could always do a flip or lutz-->half loop-->sal to give you more variety in your combos, the half loop only counts as a connector in the sequence.

[frbskate63]

From an IJS point of view, it makes no difference how you combine your jumps - they still have the same base value. So go for the combinations that you can most reliably do well, to maximise your chance of a 0 or positive GOE.

Sequences only score 80% of the value of the same jumps in combination, so aren't worth it if you are able to max out your combinations instead.

[LWalsh]

Yes but Silver level skaters do not compete using IJS, they use 6.0 (at least for now). So my experience has been that the harder the jump combinations the better placement.

Lara

[joysk8]

I also tend to think that the lutz/loop/loop has the bigger "wow" factor in the silver level. Unfortunately, then any other combo would have to be with a toe loop (which are unspectacular in my case). Yes, sequences are in the running but I am a jumper and prefer the combos.

Last dumb question - a split jump would not count as a jump but just a misc. element , right. But a split/mohawk/flip is a sequence ???

Thank you for all the feedback !! My wheels are spinning and hopefully my skates will follow.

[techskater]

I would do the Lutz-loop and a flip-loop because they both have a good wow factor. My training partner, who does very well in Silver, does a Lutz-loop-toe loop, flip-falling leaf-salchow, Lutz-toe loop, flip, and loop in her program.

Split jump is a connecting step.

[daisies]

Last dumb question - a split jump would not count as a jump but just a misc. element , right. But a split/mohawk/flip is a sequence ???

Not a sequence ... it's just a flip. A sequence is defined as two or more "listed" jumps (listed meaning they have point values under IJS) connected by unlisted jumps or hops, but there can be no steps or turns (such as a mohawk or three-turn) between the jumps. So something like a lutz-half loop-flip would be a sequence because it's two listed jumps (lutz and flip) connected by an unlisted jump (half loop). But something like a lutz-mazurka-flip is not a sequence because the three-turn you'd most likely do from the mazurka into the flip isn't allowed.

In response to what has more of a "wow" factor, I think that is a hard thing to say. To me, anything done well has a "wow" factor. I would prefer to see an easier combo done well than a harder one done not so well.

[daisies]

My training partner, who does very well in Silver, does a Lutz-loop-toe loop, flip-falling leaf-salchow ...

How is she getting backwards for the salchow after the falling leaf? If it's with a 3-turn or mohawk, it's not a sequence anymore.

[Isk8NYC]

My training partner, who does very well in Silver, does a Lutz-loop-toe loop, flip-falling leaf-salchow, Lutz-toe loop, flip, and loop in her program. How is she getting backwards for the salchow after the falling leaf? If it's with a 3-turn or mohawk, it's not a sequence anymore.
Perhaps the jump is a half-loop, not a falling leaf.

[singerskates]

Yes but Silver level skaters do not compete using IJS, they use 6.0 (at least for now). So my experience has been that the harder the jump combinations the better placement.

Lara

That's true if you're competing in the US, but if you're competing at the Skate Canada Adult Championships, we are marked with CPC which is pretty close to the USA's IJS. Not many of us did sequences at Adult Canadians because that would be like giving away 20% of a jump combination score. Most of us did the combinations instead of sequences.

[RachelSk8er]

Regardless of what system silver is judged under, the repetition rule still applies. Look on the well balanced program chart--"each jump may be repeated once, but only as part of a combo or sequence (maximum 2 of any jump)" is under every level.

Now whether judges were marking this correctly is another issue. I saw a lot of silvers and bronzes repeating jumps too many times at ANs but per the results, it didn't looked like they were getting deducted like the golds and masters skaters were under IJS.

[joysk8]

Thank you Rachelsk8 - is there anyone from ANs out there who can tell us if they repeated jumps and if so, how many times (I guess we should stick to 6.0 people). As for me, I'm a stickler for rules so I think I'll do flip/loop and then lutz/loop/toe to use up my loops.

[Mrs Redboots]

Yes but Silver level skaters do not compete using IJS, they use 6.0 (at least for now).
This may well be true, but in my experience, the judges are now mostly "thinking" IJS. Last year at the Bracknell Adult Open, judged under the RJS, it was obvious who had choreographed their programmes with the IJS in mind, for Tallinn or Oberstdorf or the Mountain Cup, and who hadn't - and, by and large, the ones choreographed for the IJS did better than those that weren't.

One judge has said that it's actually very hard to come from judging an IJS competition to an RJS one - so as the judges are thinking IJS, it does no harm to choreograph your programme with that in mind!

[Ellyn]

What does RJS stand for?


Even before the new system came along, though, I'd heard judges saying that they rewarded quality more than quantity or difficulty especially at these levels.

And the year I went to Adult Nationals, one of the bronze final-round medalists had no lutz at all in her program, but the ice coverage and overall quality on easier jump elements such as waltz jump-talling leaf-toe loop were especially impressive.

So it's probably wisest to do whatever *you* do well rather than worrying about which jump combination is hardest on paper.

[doubletoe]

I also tend to think that the lutz/loop/loop has the bigger "wow" factor in the silver level. Unfortunately, then any other combo would have to be with a toe loop (which are unspectacular in my case). Yes, sequences are in the running but I am a jumper and prefer the combos.

Last dumb question - a split jump would not count as a jump but just a misc. element , right. But a split/mohawk/flip is a sequence ???

Thank you for all the feedback !! My wheels are spinning and hopefully my skates will follow.

I agree that a lutz-loop-loop can have a lot of impact at Silver level, and if you can do a lutz-loop-loop, everyone knows you can do a flip-loop, so there's no need to prove it. But don't do the lutz-loop-loop unless you can do it with good power, control and outflow on all 3 jumps. When I won AN at Silver, I had a flip-toeloop and a lutz-loop-loop in my program, but I also happen to find the lutz-loop-loop easier than the lutz-loop-toeloop (since I can just stay in the same position the whole time and I don't risk toe-waltzing if I don't check well enough after the first two jumps). If your lutz-loop-toeloop is better, then definitely go with that combination instead.

A split-mohawk-flip is not a sequence because the split jump doesn't count as a jump. It would be considered a flip jump from a difficult entry, which would get you +GOE on the flip under IJS (assuming the flip itself was executed well) and also help with your "transitions" mark in the PCS section.

[RachelSk8er]

Thank you Rachelsk8 - is there anyone from ANs out there who can tell us if they repeated jumps and if so, how many times (I guess we should stick to 6.0 people). As for me, I'm a stickler for rules so I think I'll do flip/loop and then lutz/loop/toe to use up my loops.

But then you're doing the loop twice in separate combinations, and according to the rule, at least the way I'm reading it, you're not supposed to do that (you'd have to do a loop by itself and a loop in combination to be able to use it twice). I would have been perfectly happy tossing a loop in as the second jump in every combo (like I did when I was a kid and competed pre-pre and preliminary), but when I started working on free again this year for ANs, my coach, who is up on his rules, said I couldn't do that.

My bronze program last year had: lutz, flip toe, loop loop, half loop/sal landing on L foot/sal.

Silver program as of now has: lutz, lutz toe, loop loop, flip/half loop/sal, axel (probably just a sal in its place for GRO in June). Not sure what my coach will have me switch around if by mids I can put in a 2nd axel in combination.

[RachelSk8er]

oops somehow posted twice.

[daisies]

But then you're doing the loop twice in separate combinations, and according to the rule, at least the way I'm reading it, you're not supposed to do that (you'd have to do a loop by itself and a loop in combination to be able to use it twice).
No, that's not correct. You're allowed to do a jump twice. One must be in combination. It doesn't matter if the other is solo or in combination.

[doubletoe]

No, that's not correct. You're allowed to do a jump twice. One must be in combination. It doesn't matter if the other is solo or in combination.

Exactly. The wording of the Adult Silver well-balanced program rules is,
"Each jump may be repeated once, but only as part of a combo or sequence. (Maximum 2 of any jump)."

You can find it here:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/Adult%20Singles%20WBP%20Chart%202007-2008%20(v1).pdf

That is the exact same wording as Adult Gold, which was judged under IJS. I skated in Adult Gold at AN last month and did an axel by itself, an axel-toe, a flip-toe and a flip-loop-loop. They all counted. No problem.

[techskater]

How is she getting backwards for the salchow after the falling leaf? If it's with a 3-turn or mohawk, it's not a sequence anymore.
She hops from the falling leaf onto the back inside edge. It's not much of a hop, but it's definitely a hop.

Perhaps the jump is a half-loop, not a falling leaf.
I know the difference between a 1/2 loop and falling leaf as I can execute a falling leaf quite well and am hopeless when it comes to 1/2 loops.

[vesperholly]

I know the difference between a 1/2 loop and falling leaf as I can execute a falling leaf quite well and am hopeless when it comes to 1/2 loops.
Same. If anyone has tips on how to do a half loop without grinding to a complete halt, I'd love to hear them. I'm trying to put a flip/half loop/sal in my program so I can put in a second axel, and I lose all speed on the half loop.

[techskater]

Vesper, I am more hopeless than that on it, even. While my coach was busy laughing at my pitiful attempts when we worked on them last, she did tell me it was extremely important to get it to feel like I was jumping OUT not around and check hard. My problem with those attempts were that I ended up doing loops. :frus:

[patatty]

I hate half-loops, but I competed ISI FS4 for a while and that is a required solo element there, so I worked on them a lot. You have to make sure that your weight is not too far forward on the landing. We worked on having a strong shoulder check on the landing and keeping the free leg back and to the side. If your free leg is really extended, your landing knee is bent, and you don't bend at the waist, you should have a decent flow on the landing. It always feels like and awkward jump. The only time I do them is when I screw up my lutz-loop and end up with an inadvertent lutz-1/2 loop salchow instead. If you work on them as solo jumps, they don't feel that bad in combination, because at least you don't have to try to hold that weird inside landing edge for too long.

[doubletoe]

Same. If anyone has tips on how to do a half loop without grinding to a complete halt, I'd love to hear them. I'm trying to put a flip/half loop/sal in my program so I can put in a second axel, and I lose all speed on the half loop.

I think the trick to the half loop is just to get past the name and think of it as a fully rotated loop jump that you happen to land on the other foot (which is what it is). You have to really check hard, pulling the free leg back on landing, bending the skating knee and getting your weight on the heel, just like you're about to take off on a flip jump. In fact, if you make yourself practice half loop-flip, the half-loop salchow will become smooth and easy pretty quickly.

[Stormy]

I think the trick to the half loop is just to get past the name and think of it as a fully rotated loop jump that you happen to land on the other foot (which is what it is). You have to really check hard, pulling the free leg back on landing, bending the skating knee and getting your weight on the heel, just like you're about to take off on a flip jump. In fact, if you make yourself practice half loop-flip, the half-loop salchow will become smooth and easy pretty quickly.

Thanks, doubletoe! I know this advice will work for me....I'll try them tomorrow. :bow:

[Mrs Redboots]

What does RJS stand for?Relative Judging System - the "old" 6.0 system.

[RachelSk8er]

Thanks, doubletoe! I know this advice will work for me....I'll try them tomorrow. :bow:

Yeah just think of it as a normal loop and also make sure you keep the R hip down when you check out of it....that's what my coach has been having me do and it seems to be working better. They've gotten much bigger than what I was doing at ANs.

[techskater]

I end up landing it as a real loop, not on the "wrong foot". My body just self-corrects.

[Isk8NYC]

My training partner, who does very well in Silver, does a Lutz-loop-toe loop, flip-falling leaf-salchow, Lutz-toe loop, flip, and loop in her program.

She hops from the falling leaf onto the back inside edge. It's not much of a hop, but it's definitely a hop.

I know the difference between a 1/2 loop and falling leaf as I can execute a falling leaf quite well and am hopeless when it comes to 1/2 loops.
I also know the difference - a falling leaf is supposed to land on a toe pick and push onto the FI edge of the takeoff foot. You never mentioned a "hop" or edge change in your original statement. I thought maybe you just typed the wrong name, which DOES happen occasionally.

Why the snark? My guess made sense since it lands on the correct BI edge for the salchow entrance.
I actually have a great half-loop (cross-checking the arms on landing helps with the runout, too.)

Now I'm intrigued. Walk us through the steps, please.

[techskater]

The comment that I definitely know the difference is because I definitely know the difference between the two transition elements and that I am as unlikely to call a 1/2 loop a falling leaf as I am a loop a flip. I felt somewhat insulted that it was suggested I didn't know the difference.

Back on topic: She lands on the toe pick and edge almost simulataneously and bends and hops the Mohawk from front to back to a back inside edge. It looks really cool, it gets called a sequence (haven't seen her take a deduction for it in two or three years that she's been doing it nor has it been called out as two jumps in any critique she has received).

[doubletoe]

Back on topic: She lands on the toe pick and edge almost simulataneously and bends and hops the Mohawk from front to back to a back inside edge. It looks really cool, it gets called a sequence (haven't seen her take a deduction for it in two or three years that she's been doing it nor has it been called out as two jumps in any critique she has received).

It may be OK under 6.0 but it could be a little dangerous under IJS, since the technical specialist might call a jumped mohawk or jumped 3-turn as a turn. That actually happened to one of the ladies in Gold III at AN this year. She did a sequence that had a one foot waltz jump (a one-foot LFO 3-turn) connecting the two jumps and the TS called it as a turn, which turned the sequence into two jump passes. As a result, her final 3-jump combination was considered a 7th jump element and it didn't count.

[techskater]

She's not quite ready to move up to Gold FS yet but if she was, our coach would make it three combos to eliminate the sequence penalty anyway.

[singerskates]

It may be OK under 6.0 but it could be a little dangerous under IJS, since the technical specialist might call a jumped mohawk or jumped 3-turn as a turn. That actually happened to one of the ladies in Gold III at AN this year. She did a sequence that had a one foot waltz jump (a one-foot LFO 3-turn) connecting the two jumps and the TS called it as a turn, which turned the sequence into two jump passes. As a result, her final 3-jump combination was considered a 7th jump element and it didn't count.

Another reason to stay away from sequences. Best to do all combinations.

[techskater]

My one training partner skates Silver, which is under 6.0 and isn't quite ready for Gold...yet which makes the sequence she's doing fine. When she's ready, it'll be three combos