Dance test partner question

[Skittl1321]

Okay I know- get a rulebook. I have one but I'm being lazy and don't want to wait until I get home.

Is it correct that you can test dances with a same sex partner? I'm assuming this is true only if the partner is not also testing (ie. a coach).

[sk8lady]

Yes, you can. I tested my last two dances with my female coach. You have to look up the rule number yourself though, I am far lazier than you.

[icedancer2]

I THINK that the same-sex partner has to be your coach.

[Clarice]

TR 44.01 A. It is preferred that a couple be composed of a lady and a man. However, compulsory dance tests may be taken with a same gender partner, provided that the partner is the test taker's same gender coach.

[lovepairs]

When I was up in Lake Placid a few weeks ago, my partner and I went down to Saratoga Springs and skated at the Skidmore College rink. For the first time ever, I saw two woman doing dance together, and I thought it looked really pretty.

Since there are so few men around who skate, what would be the big objection to not only allowing woman to test together (even if it's not your coach), or even compete together?

[sk8lady]

Sheer conservatism, probably (if that's even a word!). Fear of Blades of Glory or something. You can compete together as shadow dancers, though. I did a shadow dance program at our club show this year with a female friend and no one thinks anything of that!

[lovepairs]

So, the phobia is two woman touching??? Do men "shadow" skate with one another, too? Probably not enough of them around to know, even if they do.

It's interesting in this sport about what is and is not acceptable. Here's the thing; it's a glarring problem that there are a gazillion of woman who want to dance and not enough partners to even begin to make a dent in it. Given the context of this problem, and the fact that we are all adults, you would think an exception could be made.

Does anyone know if woman dance with each other in Europe? Maybe, Mrs. Redboots can give us some insight about what goes on in England.

It's an intersting problem, though, because the reasons why there are not enough men coming into figure skating is because it's perceived as feminine, and the little boys are pointed in a different direction when they choose a sport.

My Russian coaches say it's very different in Russia; that a male figure skater is perceived to be very masculine and respected for skating.

[Imo]

I've done similar dance competitions before in Canada, which is two women dancing together, with one doing the man's steps. (I did the man's steps, it was really interesting to learn the other half of the dance, as it were...) I've also done similar pairs.

[coskater64]

There was a bit of controversy when a german gold dance couple skated the opposite steps. The woman did the mans and the mans the woman, they got virtually no points, or very few...since then some of the Fabulous Cup skaters don't skate the ISU event.

[lovepairs]

There was a bit of controversy when a german gold dance couple skated the opposite steps. The woman did the mans and the mans the woman, they got virtually no points, or very few...since then some of the Fabulous Cup skaters don't skate the ISU event.

Yea, I remember that. I think there is a proposal going to the GC that is aimed towards allowing woman to compete in Solo Dance, which is actually a step in the right direction IMHO.

[jenlyon60]

There is a proposal to add solo dance to Adult Nationals on a trial basis for a minimum of 2 years. To be precise, RFA 307 reads

"Approve a requirement that solo dance events be offered at the US Adult Championships on a trial basis for a minimum of two years beginning with the 2009 Championships. Details of the events will be posted on the Adult Program page of the web site and in the announcement."

[saras]

There was a bit of controversy when a german gold dance couple skated the opposite steps. The woman did the mans and the mans the woman, they got virtually no points, or very few...since then some of the Fabulous Cup skaters don't skate the ISU event.

This couple then came to Gay Games in Chicago (06) - they were phenomenal. They switched places part way through doing the Argentine Tango I believe - they started out in the regular M/F position and then switched.

They're both super sweet and really good skaters. The woman was also part of a same-sex pairs team - they were great too.

I should pull out that video again ;)

IMO it's really a shame that such creativity is stifled in skating.

[GordonSk8erBoi]

I wouldn't have a problem with same-sex pairs competing against other same-sex pairs, but I don't think have same sex pair competing against a mixed-sex pair is really fair. It's apples and oranges.

Not to mention when we start having transexuals who trained as men wanting to compete against the women! What a mess that will be.

[icedancer2]

Not to mention when we start having transexuals who trained as men wanting to compete against the women! What a mess that will be.

Not to mention the transgendered people.
(Yes, I live in Portland...)

[Mrs Redboots]

I wouldn't have a problem with same-sex pairs competing against other same-sex pairs, but I don't think have same sex pair competing against a mixed-sex pair is really fair. It's apples and oranges.

At the Mountain Cup they have separated the Interpretive classes into mixed-sex and same-sex, then further subdivided them into dance-style and pairs-style. And the mixed-sex classes are divided still further into lower-level and higher-level (much to our relief).

[saras]

Not to mention when we start having transexuals who trained as men wanting to compete against the women! What a mess that will be.QUOTE]

[QUOTE=icedancer2;364031]Not to mention the transgendered people.
(Yes, I live in Portland...)

Call me crazy, but I just don't think that dance skills between men and women are that different. I can see the argument for pairs or FS perhaps - where strength and flexibility generally differ across men and women. But for dance? Maybe *maybe* in Free Dance - where there are some lifts etc. - but they're not overhead triple twist lifts or anything. And that can sort itself out based on choosing choreography to match the skaters skating it. I have just passed my Silver dances and I have skated the 14-step and Foxtrot at Gay Games playing the boy's part - maybe it gets more different at Gold or Champ Gold or something - but for the compulsory dances, I don't see that much difference.

With the solo dance stuff that just passed at GC for AN, aren't they putting men and women together in the event? Maybe I'm mis-remembering details.

[Mrs Redboots]

With the solo dance stuff that just passed at GC for AN, aren't they putting men and women together in the event? Maybe I'm mis-remembering details.
They do at adult competitions here - it can be a nuisance when the men have far easier steps than the women! But at the elite Championships they are split up.

[RoaringSkates]

Does anyone know if woman dance with each other in Europe? Maybe, Mrs. Redboots can give us some insight about what goes on in England.

As others implied, in the UK you can test solo dance.

[jenlyon60]

One can test SOLO dance in the USA. The forms have a selection for "SOLO."

It's just not as common in the USA as in other countries.

One of the other posters on Rinkside has a daughter who's tested Solo track through Silver or Pre-Gold (possibly higher, I can't remember)

[Rusty Blades]

I can see the argument for pairs or FS perhaps - where strength and flexibility generally differ across men and women.


There are huge differences among women (and I presume men as well)!

My coach is 5' 1", maybe 100 pounds soaking wet, and very skilled on the ice. I am large-framed, heavy, 5' 9" and fairly strong (though not nearly as skilled!)

Last fall she jokingly suggested we should do pairs. I asked if she could land a throw-axel and she said "What makes you think I wont be doing the throwing!!??" and we both collapsed in laughter - no way on God's green earth SHE could lift ME! On the other hand, with training, I am sure I could lift her. (That was the end of the Pairs talk! :mrgreen: )

[Skittl1321]

One can test SOLO dance in the USA. The forms have a selection for "SOLO."

It's just not as common in the USA as in other countries.

One of the other posters on Rinkside has a daughter who's tested Solo track through Silver or Pre-Gold (possibly higher, I can't remember)

But a solo test does not equate to a partnered test. They are different tracks. You can't test one dance solo, another with a partner, another solo and say you've passed the level.

And that was the source of my original question- for partnered tests you can test with a same sex partner if it is your coach.

[Rusty Blades]

I wouldn't have a problem with same-sex pairs competing against other same-sex pairs, but I don't think have same sex pair competing against a mixed-sex pair is really fair. It's apples and oranges.

Not to mention when we start having transexuals who trained as men wanting to compete against the women! What a mess that will be.

Didn't the I.O.C. rule that after a certain period of time, they could? You know something the I.O.C. doesn't?

[GordonSk8erBoi]

Didn't the I.O.C. rule that after a certain period of time, they could? You know something the I.O.C. doesn't?

Yes, that's the point. It's unfair and there will be a really big stink the first time it happens, IMHO.

[sk8tmum]

[QUOTE=Skittl1321;364540]But a solo test does not equate to a partnered test. They are different tracks. You can't test one dance solo, another with a partner, another solo and say you've passed the level.

QUOTE]

In Canada ... you have the option of doing the tests either solo OR with a partner at certain levels and for certain dances. E.G., at the Junior Silver level, that option exists for some of the dances.

Which, for DS, is great - we don't have much if any FEMALE dance test partners out here - !

[Rusty Blades]

Yes, that's the point. It's unfair ....

Is the unfairness a provable fact or just a belief? (I know there is quite the debate going on in Women's Mountain Biking right now on this subject.)

[saras]

Is the unfairness a provable fact or just a belief? (I know there is quite the debate going on in Women's Mountain Biking right now on this subject.)

Right - that was my point - I see nothing about a same-sex or transgendered dance couple that would argue for an unfair skating advantage (or disadvantage). Men and women are different - BUT - a partnered dance is a partnered dance - what makes up the partnership doesn't result in noticeably different dance skating to my eye.

Solo dance (since men and women have different patterns), pairs, and singles (FS) are a different matter, where men and women tend have different strengths. Though I would argue - skating on the FS practice sessions at the gay games? That pretty much turned the gender expectations on their head. When's the last time you were on a FS session with a couple of women, a lot of men, and the men had way better flexibility than the women on the session !!!

I'm the last one to stereotype, but there was one session that I just adored - a bunch of guys were doing catch foot and biellman spins and awesomely flexible spirals, and there were only a few women on the session :)

[Rusty Blades]

When's the last time you were on a FS session with a couple of women, a lot of men, and the men had way better flexibility than the women on the session !!!

Yea, so much for stereotypes!

[GordonSk8erBoi]

Is the unfairness a provable fact or just a belief? (I know there is quite the debate going on in Women's Mountain Biking right now on this subject.)

I think a review of the IJS points for male vs female skaters would bear this out. If we're going to do this, maybe we should just do away with separate men's and women's events and just have a freestyle event?