are these toeloops ?

[abbi_1990]

Are these toeloops or toe-waltzes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe-oD3NrIDQ#GU5U2spHI_4

[phoenix]

Toe waltzes. You can see how you are rotating a full 1/2 rotation on the toe pick and then jumping once you're facing forward.

[Sessy]

http://skateclass.ru/movies/tulup.avi
that's a real toeloop.

[Skate@Delaware]

Here is a youtube video explanation of a toe-loop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgDOGlFIzKU

and an explanation (no video):
http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_toeloop.htm

[AshBugg44]

Yes it is definitely a toe waltz jump. Don't let yourself keep doing them - it's a hard habit to break! You want your right foot to draw across the picking foot and kick through.

[Isk8NYC]

Here is a youtube video explanation of a toe-loop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgDOGlFIzKU

and an explanation (no video):
http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_toeloop.htm


Those are really great videos; I just wish they had a SINGLE jump version - it would be so much better for beginners to study. I know they were made to explain skating to the audience watching triples...just wishing.

ETA: This one's cute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8fCfz9Z2nc

[mikawendy]

ETA: This one's cute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8fCfz9Z2nc

That is a cute clip. I like how the written description beside the video calls it a "fun and exciting ice skating jump." :)

[CanadianAdult]

Are these toeloops or toe-waltzes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe-oD3NrIDQ#GU5U2spHI_4

The one from some crosscuts towards the end of the video was the most toeloop-ish, and as you get some speed you'll get off the toepick faster and won't turn forward.

Nice crosscuts by the way.

[kander]

I didn't watch the whole video, but what I saw was definetly a toe waltz jump. As another poster suggested it's better to learn it right in the beginning because it's usually tougher to unlearn something.

BTW I noticed you were wearing glasses. It's usually not a good idea as they will come flying off your face eventually. You don't need glasses to skate. I'm practically blind without my glasses and it doesn't hold me back. The only problem is I can't read the clock or identify anybody further than a few feet away.

Kevin

[Sessy]

Those are really great videos; I just wish they had a SINGLE jump version - it would be so much better for beginners to study. I know they were made to explain skating to the audience watching triples...just wishing.

I posted a good single toeloop above! :)
took me a year to find a good single toeloop on video but there it is. The same site also has a 1sal.

[Sessy]

BTW I noticed you were wearing glasses. It's usually not a good idea as they will come flying off your face eventually. You don't need glasses to skate. I'm practically blind without my glasses and it doesn't hold me back. The only problem is I can't read the clock or identify anybody further than a few feet away.

Kevin

Ha, you do when your club puts about 30 people on 2/3rds of the ice arena during lessons, and when you train on public sessions for lack of anything else. :roll: I just don't see what the coach demonstrates without glasses, not even from a few feet away (strong cilinder, everything is blurry no matter how close-by). Plus, if I can't see where I am in the ice arena, how would I skate a programme?

[samba]

Nice vid, I dont think I need to add anymore, but what time did you have to get up to get such lovely clean ice all to yourself?

[Mrs Redboots]

BTW I noticed you were wearing glasses. It's usually not a good idea as they will come flying off your face eventually. You don't need glasses to skate. I'm practically blind without my glasses and it doesn't hold me back. The only problem is I can't read the clock or identify anybody further than a few feet away.

Kevin

It's far safer to wear glasses - attach them to your head with sports straps if necessary - than to crash into other skaters because you can neither see them coming nor judge how far away they are without them.

I have contact lenses now for skating (and the occasional party), but my husband still skates in his spectacles and even doing a camel spin doesn't have a problem. If he didn't we'd get him safety straps for them.

[Skate@Delaware]

If your glasses are adjusted to fit you correctly, then they are far safer than skating blind. I wear mine all the time unless I'm in a show or competition. Then I wear my contacts. But, I have my glasses standing by for backup.

When I get back to jumping on the ice I'll take some vids of my single-toe & salchow (as if I have any other???) AND my way long overdue stretching video (thanks to my dead video camera I never had a chance to make one :cry: the video on my cell phone is cr*p). My husband got me a neat little device that can take up to 30 minutes of video-it's more like a toy but the video is pretty good-better than my phone.

[abbi_1990]

I didn't watch the whole video, but what I saw was definetly a toe waltz jump. As another poster suggested it's better to learn it right in the beginning because it's usually tougher to unlearn something.

BTW I noticed you were wearing glasses. It's usually not a good idea as they will come flying off your face eventually. You don't need glasses to skate. I'm practically blind without my glasses and it doesn't hold me back. The only problem is I can't read the clock or identify anybody further than a few feet away.

Kevin

The way im doing it is the way my coach taught it to me (2 1/2 months ago), on thursday she said it was good and she was pleased with it. So i dont know anyother way to do it, can anyone tell me what i need to do differently than what i am doing now to make it correct?

I have a sportsband to put on my glasses so they dont fall off. I have difficulty wearing contact lenses because i have astigmatism. I would not be comfortable skating without my glasses on because i cant see more than 1 foot in front of me, and since we have some pretty fast skaters on Patch, it could end up getting pretty messy! lol.

[abbi_1990]

Nice vid, I dont think I need to add anymore, but what time did you have to get up to get such lovely clean ice all to yourself?

I think it was 7am. I didnt have the ice to myself, there were 2 other skaters there and 1 coach but they were at the other end of the rink so it was as good as having it to myself! :D

[Gareth]

I wear glasses when I'm skating, they have never come off or moved at all when i've been doing very fast spins and doubles, and I wouldnt say I'm a slow skater.

My coach told me to try contacts, but I cant stand the things...I dont like sticking my fingers in my eyes!!

Regarding the jump, it is cheated, wait until you leave the ice before you rotate.

I remember being told by one of the GB squad coaches to cheat a double toe loop by rotating 1/2 rotation on the pick, then doing an axel. I can't jump at slow speeds so i found this more difficult than doing it the correct way, but doubles are different to singles!

[Sessy]

You need not to stop, it needs to be one continuous motion. Let the gliding foot approach your picking foot, push your right shoulder and arm to the right to keep it checked, take off the picking foot, kick the knee of the non-picking foot up into the rotation, on the take off face backwards in the skating direction instead of forwards as you do now, and jump UP, not forward. Pull your arms in sharp to get the rotation needed as fast as possible, so you don't need much airtime. Keep your back arched (don't hunch forward) and your belly muscles tight.

But, on the other hand, everything is relative. Your coach could be just trying to teach it to you this way so you learn to go into the air, and correct the mistakes later. Gotta say though, I found it extremely hard to kick the pre-rotation habit later on, *extremely* hard, as in, I keep pre-rotating in the ccw direction no matter what. It's a little less extreme in the cw direction.

[BatikatII]

The way im doing it is the way my coach taught it to me (2 1/2 months ago), on thursday she said it was good and she was pleased with it. So i dont know anyother way to do it, can anyone tell me what i need to do differently than what i am doing now to make it correct?

.


Can you do a back pivot? If not then learn it to help with this jump and if you can do one then practice the picking in, while keeping the front foot in the back pivot position on the outside edge of the blade with your heel pointing to your left. Keeping it in that position, bring it round (heel leading) til it's close to your picking foot while keeping your body facing away from jump direction. It will feel really awkward at first but it's the position in which your body should be when leaving the ice. Keep left arm in front of you (right arm checked behind) and then when the front foot is close to the picking foot you bring the right arm through and kick through, leading with the heel of the right foot. But just practice the back pivot bit til you feel more comfortable with it as it's not easy.

It helps to stop the toe-waltzing.

I think lots of coaches don't bother to correct the toe-waltzing in the early stages as they are more concerned that people get confident jumping and then if people continue skating they will work on getting the techniques correct.

OK another point - you also need to bring your weight back on to your picking foot before you jump. If you look at your vids in slo-mo you will see that before you leave the ice, your body has already turned to facing forward (like a waltz jump) instead of staying backward (for a proper toe-loop) and your weight is on your right leg instead of on your picking leg. You should be jumping off the picking foot, not the right foot for a toe-loop and to do that you need to bring your weight back on to it - again practicing back pivots will help. Try picking in and keep front foot in back pivot position, then bring your weight back on to the picking foot while bringing front foot, heel first, closer to picking foot (but not past it), then jump straight up (off the picking foot) and back down in place to landing position while still facing backward. Don't do the rotation at all yet. If you can do that, then you can get into the correct position for a toe-loop take-off. If you find you have turned to face forward then you are about to do a toe-waltz.

These are the exercises my coach gave me to correct my toe-loop but if your coach is happy with what you are doing then maybe that is all she wants for the level you are at. Practice those exercises though and you should get a proper toe-loop quicker.

I think you're in the UK aren't you so it may be that at the level you are at they just want you to get the 3 turn entrance and jump rather than worrying about it being correct - you will come back to it once you get to NISA level 1.

Anyway it looks like you are doing well for such a short time skating. Good Luck.

With apologies for being over-analytical but you did ask!:lol:

[kander]

I have a sportsband to put on my glasses so they dont fall off. I have difficulty wearing contact lenses because i have astigmatism. I would not be comfortable skating without my glasses on because i cant see more than 1 foot in front of me, and since we have some pretty fast skaters on Patch, it could end up getting pretty messy! lol.

As long as you have the sportsband to keep them on it's OK. My glasses wouldn't last 1 minute before flying halfway accross the rink.

Kevin

[Mrs Redboots]

I have a sportsband to put on my glasses so they dont fall off. I have difficulty wearing contact lenses because i have astigmatism.
I have astigmatism, too, but find the toric lenses do help; I can see well enough to skate in them and drive in them. I don't see as well as I do with my glasses, but a very great deal better than without! Of course, my glasses, these days, are bifocals (most people come to them by their fifties!), so if I am wearing my lenses I also need reading-glasses, but they can stay in my skate bag when I am actually on the ice!

[sue123]

I can't watch the video because I'm on my parents ancient computer, but as far as glasses go, wear them if you need them. I can't see without them, and I can't judge distances either, so if I see a blur that I know is a person, I wouldn't know if htey were 5 feet in front of me or 15 feet. Kinda dangerous if there are other people around. I try to skate in contacts but I can't wear them when my allergies are bad, so I will skate in glasses if I have to. I'll only take them off if I'm the only one on the ice since I hate the feeling of skating in them and would rather not, but I would rather see than crash into anybody.

[Sessy]

I have astigmatism, too, but find the toric lenses do help;

I have it too, but apart from the lenses costing a fortune (over 700 euro for a year) because they needed to be special ordered, they also simply didn't stabilise enough. Every time I blinked, or moved my head, they moved just the slightest and for me every degree they're off-center is about -15% in sight. Even sitting in a chair at the doc's office the max I got was 65% with lenses and you need min. 70 to drive a car. I was dancing at the time, and sometimes they'd move by two, maybe three degrees and everything went fuzzy all around me, with skating, that effect would only be much worse. Tried hard, soft, and air-permeable ones, and they kept giving me eye infections to top things off, too. I'm not a candidate for laser either, so I'm gonna be skating in glasses myself, even at competitions. :roll:

[johns135]

It is a beginning drill for a toe-loop. All tloops are t-waltzes. If you take
the best one in the world .. MKwan has one, and slow it down frame by
frame, you will see clearly that it is a toe-waltz. Most professionals do
it even worse ... off the back inside edge, rather than off the toe pick.
Yours is a good drill and it will come up to speed in time. Let it come up
to where you enjoy it, and leave it there.

Also, just for fun and debate ... the waltz jump itself is done much further
around than your tloop drill. A waltz jump can only go off the toe pick
after the toe pick has turned backwards. Many skaters think they go
off the inside edge. That technique slips badly, and the best waltz jumps
go off the rotated toe pick. Watch carefully and you will see that the
waltz jump is done on a turning circle ... and the tloop is not. That is
the only real difference. To really see what I mean, try doing both in
sequence.

johns

[Skate@Delaware]

I have it too, but apart from the lenses costing a fortune (over 700 euro for a year) because they needed to be special ordered, they also simply didn't stabilise enough. Every time I blinked, or moved my head, they moved just the slightest and for me every degree they're off-center is about -15% in sight. Even sitting in a chair at the doc's office the max I got was 65% with lenses and you need min. 70 to drive a car. I was dancing at the time, and sometimes they'd move by two, maybe three degrees and everything went fuzzy all around me, with skating, that effect would only be much worse. Tried hard, soft, and air-permeable ones, and they kept giving me eye infections to top things off, too. I'm not a candidate for laser either, so I'm gonna be skating in glasses myself, even at competitions. :roll:
One of my adult skating friends is also in that situation...so she got the GLITZIEST glasses she could get for skating!!! They are very glam and pretty!!!

[doubletoe]

It is a beginning drill for a toe-loop. All tloops are t-waltzes. If you take
the best one in the world .. MKwan has one, and slow it down frame by
frame, you will see clearly that it is a toe-waltz. Most professionals do
it even worse ... off the back inside edge, rather than off the toe pick.
Yours is a good drill and it will come up to speed in time. Let it come up
to where you enjoy it, and leave it there.

Also, just for fun and debate ... the waltz jump itself is done much further
around than your tloop drill. A waltz jump can only go off the toe pick
after the toe pick has turned backwards. Many skaters think they go
off the inside edge. That technique slips badly, and the best waltz jumps
go off the rotated toe pick. Watch carefully and you will see that the
waltz jump is done on a turning circle ... and the tloop is not. That is
the only real difference. To really see what I mean, try doing both in
sequence.

johns

I actually disagree. Watching Michelle Kwan's (and other proper toeloops), I see a quarter turn on the toe between pick and takeoff, not a half turn. The quarter turn is correct and acceptable and it's pretty much impossible to take off with zero turn, but a half turn will get you a downgrade (I know from experience, LOL!).

[johns135]

I actually disagree. Watching Michelle Kwan's (and other proper toeloops), I see a quarter turn on the toe between pick and takeoff, not a half turn. The quarter turn is correct and acceptable and it's pretty much impossible to take off with zero turn, but a half turn will get you a downgrade (I know from experience, LOL!).

It is not so much a point to disagree as it is that a beginner must learn
in a series of progressions. Her beginner drill will get her there in time, and
it is not bad to not be able to do a tloop perfectly when you first start.
Her drill is fine regardless of "deductions". Have you noticed that most of
the pros actually drop off the pick to the edge ... and go off the edge
in their triple tloops? I think she should be encouraged to experiment
and make up drills that will eventually get her as far as she wants to go.
It is a lifetime sport, and 40 years from now, she will still be out there
and in good shape.

johns

[Sessy]

One of my adult skating friends is also in that situation...so she got the GLITZIEST glasses she could get for skating!!! They are very glam and pretty!!!

That's actually an idea... A very expensive one, with the price of my glasses, but an idea for sure... Hmm... Well the insurance covers a new pair this year and I need a new pair anyway, so if I'm lucky and the cilinder hasn't changed enough to justify new glasses, I might get a second pair of skating glasses instead of sunglasses and still use my old sunglasses for driving.

[Mrs Redboots]

That's actually an idea... A very expensive one, with the price of my glasses, but an idea for sure... Hmm... Well the insurance covers a new pair this year and I need a new pair anyway, so if I'm lucky and the cilinder hasn't changed enough to justify new glasses, I might get a second pair of skating glasses instead of sunglasses and still use my old sunglasses for driving.
Can you not order a cheap second pair on-line? Often they are less than half the price on-line than they are in the opticians.

[BatikatII]

All tloops are t-waltzes.
johns

I'd have to disagree with that statement as would my coaches. As would the judges that downgrade a toe-waltz that should have been a toe-loop!

[doubletoe]

I'd have to disagree with that statement as would my coaches. As would the judges that downgrade a toe-waltz that should have been a toe-loop!

That's a good point. If all toeloops take off with the foot facing completely forward, then why try to differentiate them in the first place?

[johns135]

That's a good point. If all toeloops take off with the foot facing completely forward, then why try to differentiate them in the first place?

Because judges for the most part have never thought through the
technique of the jump. There is no way a tloop can take off from an
unrotated toe-pick. The spin itself comes from the rotation on the
toe-pick before it leaves the ice. In addition, when the toe-pick touches
the ice, it must be placed behind the body ... but across the body to
the opposite leg, so that the body can go past the toe-pick and create
spin. The judges seem to think a tloop is done exactly like a flip .. with
the toe-pick placed directly behind the body on the line of travel. That
is impossible, and any mpg slowed down will show you that. Also, it is
physically impossible for the pick to leave the ice until the body has
passed over the vertical point just above the pick. At that point, the
body has rotated more than 90 degrees ... and generally about 180
degrees. So her drills are slow, but they are correct. The tloop is a
twaltz ... except when the pros drop off the pick and make it an edge
jump ... which is an even more powerful jump than going off the pick.
Slow some mpgs down, and watch carefully in stop motion at the take-
off point.

johns

[BatikatII]

Well mine don't work like that. It's perfectly possible - though more difficult to take off while the body is still facing the way it was when you picked in. Certainly for a single jump.

The secret is to use the back pivot position and to bring the body weight back on to the picking foot. You can have the body weight over the pick without turning it. Yes, the front foot doesn't take off til it reaches the picking foot but it should still be in the back pivot position (i.e not turned to face direction of jump) and then you kick through with the heel leading and body does not have to be very prerotated at all. At most a quarter turn.

I've seen it done and I've done it so it must be possible.

Are you a judge yourself as it seems a sweeping statment to say that all judges are wrong?

My coaches would say that there is no spin on the toe-pick - it is more of a vault off of the toe-pick and the rotation comes from the arms that stay checked until you jump. Of course if you have already pre-rotated then you can't keep your right arm checked behind you so you can't get the rotation that way and you have no choice but to toe-waltz it - but that's what it would be - a toe-waltz. There is most definitely a difference.

Oh and a waltz jump takes off from a forward toepick. If it had already turned to backwards there'd be no rotation. You jump up quite straight and the 1/2 rotation happens quite naturally in the air - otherwise it'd be a hop.

[Skate@Delaware]

That's actually an idea... A very expensive one, with the price of my glasses, but an idea for sure... Hmm... Well the insurance covers a new pair this year and I need a new pair anyway, so if I'm lucky and the cilinder hasn't changed enough to justify new glasses, I might get a second pair of skating glasses instead of sunglasses and still use my old sunglasses for driving.
I'm not sure how it is over where you are...over here optical shops sometimes run 2-for-1 deals and that is what she got. Her frames were not very expensive, they were just very glam. I think they were displaying "sunglasses" she just got them without the darkened lenses.

Could you get measured for frames, find out what size/model you like then look for them cheaper online? Many of them are Italian, you might get a good deal that way (especially since you are closer to the source)???

[Sessy]

In my case, even design Esprit frames (VERY happy with them btw, opting for Esprit next time again, certainly *never* getting diesel again!) are a joke in price compared to the glasses. I just have a *lot* of eyeproblems and there's only 1 factory in Europe which can make what I need, and even with them we had some problems where they had messed up on the first try and I had to wait another 8 weeks. The price on my glass in the glasses is so steep the free second glasses never apply to me either (I've to pay like 100 E extra) and since my eyes don't really adjust for light much, I absolutely need sunglasses in the darkest possible tone, too.
So if my cilinder didn't change at all (when it changed rotation by 0.25 degree that made me disoriented about distances already, especially the floor seemed very close, and it took almost a month to get used to it fully) I can keep using my old sunglasses and order a second pair for skating and stick it full of rhinestones, else I need to order sunglasses or I won't be able to even study inside without the curtains closed, much less drive my bike or car.
Strangely, when the spherical correction changes, I don't react as violently to it as with cilinder.

But I bet I can make a sort of lycra pull-over for the glasses, covered in swarovski AB crystal... HMM!!!! The good thing about esprit frames? They stay on perfectly even when you're hanging upside down, and in roller coasters, and in scratch spins in which you feel your fingers swell (or well, they do after the custom changes my glass shop makes to the "legs"). I'm not sure the cheap second frames would stay on as well.
Must... Order... Swarovski... Now....

[Skate@Delaware]

Well, Sessy, if anyone can do it, you can! I know you are talented when it comes to crafts!!!! You will have to show us what you come up with!

It sucks about the cost, tho....and the problems you have to go through to get them made. Seems it would almost be cheaper to come stateside and get some with all you go through!

[johns135]

Well mine don't work like that. It's perfectly possible - though more difficult to take off while the body is still facing the way it was when you picked in. Certainly for a single jump.


I've seen it done and I've done it so it must be possible.

Are you a judge yourself as it seems a sweeping statment to say that all judges are wrong?

.

Yes. I judged diving and gymnastics for many many years. I also coached
gymnastics at the regional level. I am well trained in observing and
breaking down elements into their component parts and teaching them.

There is not an mpg of a toe-loop anywhere in the skating world that
shows a take off as you are describing. That is because it is impossible
to do. In the tloop, if the pick is placed directly back, the line of travel
of the center mass of the body is on the wrong side of the pick position.
It would have to produce the "flip spin" .. that is spin in the wrong
direction. So the pick placement has to be across the body, and in line
with the other leg for the center of mass of the body to travel past
the pick and produce the "tloop spin" .. or spin in the correct direction.
That action alone causes the pick to be placed pre-rotated, and then
the jump must travel over the pick. The only way that can happen is
if the skater waits until she turns enough to jump over the pick, and
land in a circling line of travel ... pre-rotated nearly 180 ... the toe-waltz.

johns

[doubletoe]

Regardless of the actual physics, any skater who goes into a toeloop thinking it is supposed to take off forward will end up doing a very obvious toe-waltz, whereas a skater who takes off focusing on staying backward is much less likely to have a clearly forward takeoff that gets downgraded.

I still disagree that a proper toeloop rotates a full 180 degrees on the toe before takeoff, but rather than belaboring that point, I think it's more important to communicate to the skater what a proper takeoff should *feel* like and look like to the naked eye. The takeoff should feel backward, or a quarter turn sideways at the very most. Why? because the toepick is not part of the foot, so by the time the last toepick leaves the ice, it feels to the skater like she is already completely off the ice and halfway through the jump. So imagine what would happen if the skater weren't trying pretty earnestly to keep the toe from turning forward before leaving the ice?

Another example of this phenomenon: I know a coach who teaches the axel from a deeply curved takeoff edge because she has looked at axels in slow motion and seen that the edge curves before takeoff. The skaters I know who have switched to her from other coaches have lost their axels as a result. Why? Because the edge will curve more deeply as you're about to leave the ice no matter what, but the skaters who complete the axel successfully are those who are focusing on keeping the edge straight all the way up to takeoff and *feel* like the edge stays straight.

[BatikatII]

Ah but you are not a skating judge then johns and therefore I would take it that perhaps those who are skating judges may just know more about the technical aspects of it than yourself?

And if I had video of me doing it I could show you but maybe you should watch Yagudin in his training tape -can't find the link now. But I can assure you that you are wrong. I have definitely left the ice before my body is rotated 180 degrees. I'm not sure where you get the idea that you can only possibly jump if the body is already 180 degrees rotated - the rotation comes in the air and not from the toepick - the jump is a vault not a spin. You don't need to turn to jump over the pick. You vault off the toepick as you are turning yes, but at point of take-off you are not already turned as that is prerotation which actually prevents you from getting the rotation from the arms.

The weight comes back on to the toepick to vault off it and the front foot comes close to it but this is why the front foot needs to be in a back pivot position with heel leading and not toes first. This stops you turning the body ahead of the jump.

Given your other posts on small and pre-rotated jumps I am going with the skating judges and real physics. You dont seem to connect rotation with arm action at all, just with jumping off a prerotated toepick.

And I can assure you that my waltz jump takes off forward - the rotation happens in the air while you assert it can only take off when backward which is simply not true. You do have to kick through and get a bit of height for the turn to happen but happen it does! Otherwise all you have is a hop. The best waltz jumps have a wide open position half way through which you can only get if you take off forwards.

The video of top skaters doing doubles and triples can be deceptive as they tend to lean quite far forward before takeoff and the foot is often picked in at an angle.

Maybe you've only seen videos of bad toe-loops?

[dbny]

I have difficulty wearing contact lenses because i have astigmatism.

I also have astigmatism, but, like Mrs Redboots, I have contacts for skating. Mine don't correct for astigmatism but I've found that the difference is so slight that I can't tell. I've even worn them while driving a few times, and could read the roadsigns just fine. Depending on how often you skate, you could probably even get the single use lenses and not pay more than you would for a year's supply of two-week lenses.

[Sessy]

It sucks about the cost, tho....and the problems you have to go through to get them made. Seems it would almost be cheaper to come stateside and get some with all you go through!

Yeah and custom boots, while we're at it. Maybe I should indeed go and see America for myself someday. :mrgreen: All my friends are coming back from the states with stories to tell about really stupid stunts they pulled there (like one of them went hiking through a national bear park holding jelly sandwiches in the hope of actually seeing some bears, etc) so maybe I should join in. :mrgreen: I mean with the price of the dollar, it could be worth it hah! :mrgreen:

And whoa, way off topic.

And I agree on the waltz jumps btw. Waltz jumps take off forward. At the last possible moment the foot grabs a very steep edge but the blade never actually flips, you jump just before that, that's the whole idea behind it - that way, the ice works for you instead of against you. BTW to pre-rotate a toeloop at any speed and take it off truly forward is very, very hard because what happens is your toepick looses the grip on the ice and you sort of wipe out. There are even some world-class skaters who had their quadruple toeloops downgraded, it's a very common problem, I think Johnny Weir did at the world's this year? Still, even toe-loops which are downgraded never take off forward. They take off more-than-sideways. Trust me, you try taking off forward at speed, your toe will slip out of the ice, and if you don't want that, you end up making it look like a toe-waltz or toe-axel. Plenty of skaters doing those, but still.

[littleprincess]

waltz jump. Toe loop requires something like a 3turn before the jump and a full rotation

[Mrs Redboots]

waltz jump. Toe loop requires something like a 3turn before the jump and a full rotation
I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with you there - the entry into a toe-loop (cherry flip, as we sometimes call it in the UK) has nothing to do with the jump itself! I have been known to do one from a back spiral - come up quickly, pick in, and jump. Many people do do it from a 3-turn or occasionally a Mohawk, but it's not compulsory.

[icerinque]

It is neither. That was a Waltz jump. A Toe Loop is preceded by an inside turn, which you did not do in this video.

[Skittl1321]

It is neither. That was a Waltz jump. A Toe Loop is preceded by an inside turn, which you did not do in this video.

As pointed out by the poster before you the mode of entry does not define the jump- a toe loop can be done without the 3-turn, it just has to take off of the back outside edge.

[icerinque]

Ok, I saw your 3 entry as well, and that was a toe waltz.

[techskater]

Just because there's no three turn doesn't mean it's not a toe loop necessarily. There's never a three turn when it's the second jump of a combination and we have a lovely skater at our rink who does a beautiful double toe out of back crossovers. The toe loop designation is dictated by the edge it takes off from (back outside), the fact there IS a toe assist and that the toe assist comes from the foot opposite the landing foot. When the body turns forward prior to take off, it is a toe loop with an error commonly called a toe waltz jump or toe Axel. In this case, the toe waltz jump error could be applied to the video in question.

[Mrs Redboots]

It is neither. That was a Waltz jump. A Toe Loop is preceded by an inside turn, which you did not do in this video.
Er, no, not necessarily! It is certainly the most common entry, but certainly not the only one.

[abbi_1990]

Can you do a back pivot? If not then learn it to help with this jump and if you can do one then practice the picking in, while keeping the front foot in the back pivot position on the outside edge of the blade with your heel pointing to your left. Keeping it in that position, bring it round (heel leading) til it's close to your picking foot while keeping your body facing away from jump direction. It will feel really awkward at first but it's the position in which your body should be when leaving the ice. Keep left arm in front of you (right arm checked behind) and then when the front foot is close to the picking foot you bring the right arm through and kick through, leading with the heel of the right foot. But just practice the back pivot bit til you feel more comfortable with it as it's not easy.

It helps to stop the toe-waltzing.

I think lots of coaches don't bother to correct the toe-waltzing in the early stages as they are more concerned that people get confident jumping and then if people continue skating they will work on getting the techniques correct.

OK another point - you also need to bring your weight back on to your picking foot before you jump. If you look at your vids in slo-mo you will see that before you leave the ice, your body has already turned to facing forward (like a waltz jump) instead of staying backward (for a proper toe-loop) and your weight is on your right leg instead of on your picking leg. You should be jumping off the picking foot, not the right foot for a toe-loop and to do that you need to bring your weight back on to it - again practicing back pivots will help. Try picking in and keep front foot in back pivot position, then bring your weight back on to the picking foot while bringing front foot, heel first, closer to picking foot (but not past it), then jump straight up (off the picking foot) and back down in place to landing position while still facing backward. Don't do the rotation at all yet. If you can do that, then you can get into the correct position for a toe-loop take-off. If you find you have turned to face forward then you are about to do a toe-waltz.

These are the exercises my coach gave me to correct my toe-loop but if your coach is happy with what you are doing then maybe that is all she wants for the level you are at. Practice those exercises though and you should get a proper toe-loop quicker.

I think you're in the UK aren't you so it may be that at the level you are at they just want you to get the 3 turn entrance and jump rather than worrying about it being correct - you will come back to it once you get to NISA level 1.

Anyway it looks like you are doing well for such a short time skating. Good Luck.

With apologies for being over-analytical but you did ask!:lol:

hi batikatII:

thanks for your detailed reply, sorry i didnt reply until now, i have been really busy with college.

in answer to your question, no, i cannot do a back pivot so i didnt really understand most of what you said. caoch is away atm but when she gets back i will ask her about the back pivot.

once i know what i back piviot is, i will be able to try the things that you suggested in your post :D

i am in the UK doing silver and gold passport so maybe you are right in saying that the way i am doing it is ok at this level.

i spoke with my friend who has done NISA L1 elements, programme and field moves and she showed me her toeloop and she definatley rotates 1/2 rotation on ice before jumping forwards off the toepick and she said that my toeloop looks right. maybe theres something weird about the way that the coaches at my rink teach it!

idk tho - i think your description is right though, since a toeloop is a full rotation jump i would expect it to do 360 degrees in the air lol!

[jskater49]

It is neither. That was a Waltz jump. A Toe Loop is preceded by an inside turn, which you did not do in this video.

actually my daughter has finally got her double toe loop by doing a mohawk rather than a three turn.

And BTW I prefer to do a outside 3 turn and then change feet.

Like they all say, it doesn't matter how you get on the outside edge, as long as you get on it.

j

[BatikatII]

Hi Abbi
I wrote a reply but it doesn't look like I posted it so I'll try again - though I can't remember exactly what I said. Basically I think you shouldn't worry about it too much as if your coach is happy, then what you are doing is probably appropriate for the level you are at. It doesn't hurt to know what you are aiming at though.:lol: It definitely takes a while to get the hang of the proper rhythm of the jumps that enable them to flow smoothly without being rushed (rushing a jump is never good but there shouldn't be any pauses either).

I wouldn't worry about the back pivot thing right now either as it is probaby more important to get confidence in jumping than in being too technicaly correct at this stage. Basically, whatever you learn in skating you can always improve it somewhere down the line (hence why top skaters still work on crossovers and basics) but if you try to learn it all at once it is just overwhelming.

The pre-rotation is not so much of a problem unless you are doing it in competition (as your friend discovered you can pass level 1 even with pre-rotation). Since the introduction of IJS to replace the old 6.0 scoring system the judges have paid more attention to the grade of execution (how well a jump is done technicaly) even where they are still using 6.0 scoring. So if you plan on ever being competitive then it is something you would need to work on then, as it does make a difference in the scoring.

There is always a little pre-rotation but it certainly should not be obvious and if the whole upper body is already turned then it is definitely obvious:lol:

You look like you are doing well for your level though so good luck for your future skating.


hi batikatII:

thanks for your detailed reply, sorry i didnt reply until now, i have been really busy with college.

in answer to your question, no, i cannot do a back pivot so i didnt really understand most of what you said. caoch is away atm but when she gets back i will ask her about the back pivot.

once i know what i back piviot is, i will be able to try the things that you suggested in your post :D

i am in the UK doing silver and gold passport so maybe you are right in saying that the way i am doing it is ok at this level.

i spoke with my friend who has done NISA L1 elements, programme and field moves and she showed me her toeloop and she definatley rotates 1/2 rotation on ice before jumping forwards off the toepick and she said that my toeloop looks right. maybe theres something weird about the way that the coaches at my rink teach it!

idk tho - i think your description is right though, since a toeloop is a full rotation jump i would expect it to do 360 degrees in the air lol!