Sit Spin Definition

[fsk8r]

I know there have been a lot of discussions around sit spins in the past. But I was wondering what the technical definition of a sit spin is. I keep hearing different things, and I know that I'm not low enough (I was the video on the phone and it wasn't half as low as I thought it was), but how low do I really need to go? I don't think I'm ever going to get my backside to touch my ankle, but how far to I really need to get to pass the test? (I'm more worried about the test at the moment and getting lower later). Also there has been a lot of debate at my rink about what the free leg is doing. Some of the kids do it with the leg bent and wrapped around the skating leg, whilst I was taught to do it with the leg straight out in front (like a spinning shoot the duck/teapot).

If anyone can answer these I'd be really grateful, as I can't seem to get a definitive answer from anyone down the rink, and my coach is currently going to assess other level 2+ adults' sit spins to see how low they are.

[Clarice]

In a sit spin, the knee of the skating leg should be bent so that thigh is parallel to the ice. Your bottom is on level with your knee. I've seen people do them lower, but you are supposed to be at least this low. The free leg can be in a number of different places. The classic position is to extend the free leg straight forward, as you described. There are other variations, though, as well as different body positions. As far as I can tell, it's the position of the skating leg that defines the spin as a sit spin.

[looplover]

People pass with the thigh not parallel (I did, I know plenty of others who did) but we're definitely supposed to get it there. It always feels so much lower than it really is :x

For example - this is from last weekend's competition and I'm somewhat happy with it - but - it's not low enough. This is (or at least was) a passing sit spin, but one of my firm goals for my own adult skating is to have a true sit spin (sometimes I do - I think - sometimes it's this) (I think if I moved my free leg up a bit it would automatically be lower??)

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn151/3rdAve_photos/Title01_Chapter01012_0015.jpg

[Isk8NYC]

I think the ISI definition is "hip at or below the skating knee" but, like LoopLover, I've seen people with higher ones. I teach it with the free leg extended to the front, toe pointed, and the foot "presenting" - meaning turned with the toe out, blade parallel to the ice.




(Copied from an older thread)
Here are links to older threads about this topic. It's been a while, so others will have things to add and suggest.

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=20824&highlight=sit+spin
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=20425&highlight=sit+spin
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=20381&highlight=sit+spin
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=18203&highlight=sit+spin
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=18018&highlight=sit+spin
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=15013&highlight=sit+spin
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=13987&highlight=sit+spin

I like this one: shoot the duck vs sit spin - sounds like a WWF event! LOL
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=12401&highlight=sit+spin

[looplover]

I'm going to start practicing it that way, ISk8NYC. I didn't even realize until I saw video of it recently that my free foot was so close to the ice...which also explains why I can't do a change-sit for the life of me!

[Isk8NYC]

These quotes are from the USFSA Basic Skills Instructors Manual and the ISI Skaters and Coaches Handbook.


Sit spin - minimum 3 revolutions:
The position to be achieved in the spin is to sit to the point where the thigh is parallel to the ice with the body leaning forward, head in front of the skating foot and over the skating knee, and weight balanced over the skating side. The back should be straight with a sharp angle of torso to skating leg.



3. Sit Spin
Making the approach from a forward outside entry edge, the spin must be performed for a minimum of six revolutions on one foot. For at least four of the revolutions the skating hip must be no higher than the skating knee. The free leg must be held in a forward position and not wrapped around the spinning foot; the back must be straight. The head position is optional. The skater must rise on one foot without touching the ice with the other foot.


Standard Soapbox remark: if you test or compete, buy the handbook for yourself.

[Isk8NYC]

I'm going to start practicing it that way, ISk8NYC. I didn't even realize until I saw video of it recently that my free foot was so close to the ice...which also explains why I can't do a change-sit for the life of me!
I love the sit spin, but every time watch myself on video, I'm appalled at how high mine is today.
This is a terrible sit-change-sit (http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c127/Isk8NYC/Skating/?action=view&current=Sit-chg-SitWeakBackSit.flv) from christmastime - I really shouldn't do freestyle in ski pants and three sweaters, but it was FREEZING at that rink. (always is, too)


Last week, I stayed for the public session after Tuesday groups (did you know they added that in the evening?) and I was hanging out, waiting for the twins to get bored. I did a sit spin and one of the men who works at the front desk saw it and said (in a sweet southern drawl) "I didn't know y'all could SKAAATE!" I adore that young man.

[looplover]

I love the sit spin, but every time watch myself on video, I'm appalled at how high mine is today.
This is a terrible sit-change-sit (http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c127/Isk8NYC/Skating/?action=view&current=Sit-chg-SitWeakBackSit.flv) from christmastime - I really shouldn't do freestyle in ski pants and three sweaters, but it was FREEZING at that rink. (always is, too)



Wow, that forward sit was low!

I did not know that about Tuesdays!

[sk8tmum]

Last August, ISU clarified that the sit spin had to be with the butt no higher than the skating knee. As a result, a whole bunch of skaters in the summer competitive competitions were surprised to find that their "sit" spins were counted as upright spins (with deductions, point losses, etc) the result.

Since then, the sit spins have been getting lower and lower on the competitive track (around here).

On StarSkate track, I'm still seeing lots of sit spins that are not low enough to qualify under the competitive track. My DD, who has a slightly non-functional leg, struggles to get down low; she's way above where DS is, but, she still passed her Junior Bronze freeskate test with credit for a sit spin.

Do I agree? I don't know. I know how hard DS and the other kids had to train to get that spin so llooooowwww ... but, then again, the high sit spin was allowed from CanSkate onwards. Topic for another debate, perhaps.

Getting it low? Best advice came off this board: do squats on a pair of 2 inch heels. It worked for DS ... don't ask about the heels, though, it's a deep dark secret.:lol:

[Sessy]

At our club, you're allowed to bend your free knee all the way. Somehow, this makes it a lot easier to sit down deeper.

[Rusty Blades]

the sit spin had to be with the butt no higher than the skating knee

My coach (who is also a Technical Specialist) gave exactly that definition (and suggested I should wear a thicker butt pad so my butt gets closer to the ice 8O )

[sk8tmum]

My coach (who is also a Technical Specialist) gave exactly that definition (and suggested I should wear a thicker butt pad so my butt gets closer to the ice 8O )


Must be a TS thing then; secondary coach is a TS and that's where we heard it first. Primary coach later actually used a less polite word than butt. One time, I guess (not referring to you, of course) that having a big butt would be good, yes?

[Mrs Redboots]

My coach (who is also a Technical Specialist) gave exactly that definition (and suggested I should wear a thicker butt pad so my butt gets closer to the ice 8O )
Oh, I love your coach! Kind of thing mine would say....

[fsk8r]

I love the sit spin, but every time watch myself on video, I'm appalled at how high mine is today.
This is a terrible sit-change-sit (http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c127/Isk8NYC/Skating/?action=view&current=Sit-chg-SitWeakBackSit.flv) from christmastime - I really shouldn't do freestyle in ski pants and three sweaters, but it was FREEZING at that rink. (always is, too)


Last week, I stayed for the public session after Tuesday groups (did you know they added that in the evening?) and I was hanging out, waiting for the twins to get bored. I did a sit spin and one of the men who works at the front desk saw it and said (in a sweet southern drawl) "I didn't know y'all could SKAAATE!" I adore that young man.

That forward spin is REALLY low (considering the ski pants). Mine are more like the back sit part of it. I've heard the definition of butt with knee and I think that probably makes the most attractive sit spin (the really low ones look a bit ugly sometimes). But someone the other day mentioned that for testing you only needed the skating leg to make a right angle, which with the leg bending forward means your butt ain't in line with the knee.

Looks like I'll have to keep working on the one leg squats to get them lower. It's a bit strange that there is obviously so much confusion as to what is acceptable and what will scrape a pass on the test.
I'm just a bit worried when I get onto the back sit as my left knee (i'm a southpaw) is weaker following a car accident and is never going to let me get down that low.

[fsk8r]

Looplover -If your sit spin passed I've got hope, as mine is at about the same height (which is lower than a lot of the adults I know who passed the level 2 test). I just wonder if that would be considered low enough by the lovely judges from NISA? Someone seemed to suggest that NISA was using an unofficial policy of not requiring adults to get as low as the kids, even though there is a single test track. That seems a bit strange to me, as they don't give an inch on the field moves (and I wouldn't want them to!).

[looplover]

I wonder - it sounds like everyone's getting more strict so I'm going to make sure I keep working on staying lower. I don't actually want anyone to cut me any slack on this but this is also one of my personal skating obsessions :frus:

I know that sometimes I don't go lower because it just feels right in the higher position, and I think I should take "feels right" as a prompt to go lower to "feels like knee is in protest"

Looplover -If your sit spin passed I've got hope, as mine is at about the same height (which is lower than a lot of the adults I know who passed the level 2 test). I just wonder if that would be considered low enough by the lovely judges from NISA? Someone seemed to suggest that NISA was using an unofficial policy of not requiring adults to get as low as the kids, even though there is a single test track. That seems a bit strange to me, as they don't give an inch on the field moves (and I wouldn't want them to!).

[Isk8NYC]

I'm just a bit worried when I get onto the back sit as my left knee (i'm a southpaw) is weaker following a car accident and is never going to let me get down that low.Thanks!

My right knee is the weaker of the two; for me, the backspin is harder. Pushing back up on the right knee does hurt if I haven't warmed up and medicated myself properly, lol. It's been that way for a while - I used to compensate by changing back to the left foot to finish and exit the spin.

When I was in my 20's, I used to be able to get it low enough that I could feel the cold from the ice. Occasionally, I get a few good ones in, but not as much as before. I've been a slacker about skating for the last month because of my new work responsibilities.

[frbskate63]

I just wonder if that would be considered low enough by the lovely judges from NISA?
I don't think you have to get nearly as low as IJS requirements to pass the level 2 test - if you did, they'd probably have to move the sit spin up a few levels. Quite a few of the kids doing novice and junior IJS competitions and hoping to qualify for the British Championships don't get their sit spins credited, and they all have to have a minimum of level 8 to be competing at that level.

I've also seen people who've passed level 2 whose sit spins are not low at all - you can make it up on the other elements, as you're allowed to be up to 0.5 below pass mark on any one element, provided you reach the overall passing total.

[fsk8r]

I don't think you have to get nearly as low as IJS requirements to pass the level 2 test - if you did, they'd probably have to move the sit spin up a few levels. Quite a few of the kids doing novice and junior IJS competitions and hoping to qualify for the British Championships don't get their sit spins credited, and they all have to have a minimum of level 8 to be competing at that level.

I've also seen people who've passed level 2 whose sit spins are not low at all - you can make it up on the other elements, as you're allowed to be up to 0.5 below pass mark on any one element, provided you reach the overall passing total.

There's hope then for me with the test. Just need to be able to get a fakeable back spin so that someone actually believes I'm spinning, because I don't think doing a twizzle is really what they meant when they said back spin!

Interesting that they've not pulled the kids up before level 8 with their sit spins as I'm sure it keeps coming up in the tests as you got up the system.

[fsk8r]

I wonder - it sounds like everyone's getting more strict so I'm going to make sure I keep working on staying lower. I don't actually want anyone to cut me any slack on this but this is also one of my personal skating obsessions :frus:

I know that sometimes I don't go lower because it just feels right in the higher position, and I think I should take "feels right" as a prompt to go lower to "feels like knee is in protest"

I agree with the whole not wanting any slack, but I'd also like to be able to move up from level 1 sometime soon. I can jump well enough, I just can't spin! Why you have to do both is beyond me! (And I know I can't spin so I generally practice three times as many spins as jumps).

Think I'll have to try going to the knee in protest stage. I've been working on keeping a stable centered spin and if it stays stable long enough I'll push lower. If I go low to start with, I'm going to start travelling badly as I lose control.

Right back to squats and sit spin practice...

[SkatingOnClouds]

One time, I guess (not referring to you, of course) that having a big butt would be good, yes?


There's hope for my sit spin yet then ! I definitely have the butt for it :lol:

[Ellyn]

When I was a kid I was able to get all the way down but not to get back up again, so I learned to do the spin with a higher position, maybe similar to looplover's photo.

As an adult my center of gravity is such that I couldn't get all the way down without falling even if I tried, and in the last year my knee has been injured and further hampered the range of motion for achieving that kind of position, so I would only get even that far down on a really good day.

On a bad day you wouldn't even be able to tell whether I'm trying to do a sitspin or some bent-leg upright variation.

Most of the time you could probably tell that I'm trying but have to conclude that I didn't succeed. At least the spin itself is usually fairly fast and centered.

[Mainemom]

I was so glad to read these posts because I remember reading somewhere else that someone's pet peeve was sit spins so low that they weren't in a sitting position which started me wondering/worrying about DD's spin. Her back sit is more like what has been described but the forward one is way lower than thigh parallel to ice. Is that still okay? Her coach always has her demonstrate it to kids that are learning the sit spin, so I figured she knows best and I wasn't about to question her on it.

[Clarice]

My daughter does her sit spins really low, too. It's okay, as far as the position goes, but it can put some extra stress on the knee. My personal pet peeve with sit spins is people who hunch over when they do them - I like to see a straight back.

[Isk8NYC]

You're just talking about posture, right? I used to do a "turtleback sit spin" where you tuck your head and back down flat over the free leg. It's called something else today - we only named it that because Turtleback Zoo was right next to one of the local rinks.

I tried one this morning, inspired by this thread and looplover's diligent practicing. Not a good idea at 7am - I don't EVER remember being that dizzy. I couldn't get back up; ended up sprawled on the ice. ROFLOL!

[Clarice]

That's right - I just mean posture, not variations in position.

[fsk8r]

That's right - I just mean posture, not variations in position.

I've seen some people doing them with a hunched back, but I half think that they're doing it because they think it's getting them lower. (As I'm sure my back ends up hunched when I really think I'm trying to get lower, but then again I've got poor posture most of the time anyway, and have to really keep working on improving it.)

[looplover]

I used to do a "turtleback sit spin" where you tuck your head and back down flat over the free leg. It's called something else today - we only named it that because Turtleback Zoo was right next to one of the local rinks.


I love it!! I used to skate there all the time :lol:

[Isk8NYC]

When was the last time you were there? It's changed dramatically - added a second sheet of ice, park-and-ride garage next door - since I skated there.

[looplover]

When was the last time you were there? It's changed dramatically - added a second sheet of ice, park-and-ride garage next door - since I skated there.

Probably not since 1994 - I think (?) they only had one sheet of ice. I used to see the same group of guys in their 70s using speed skates, they were great!

[BatikatII]

There's hope then for me with the test. Just need to be able to get a fakeable back spin so that someone actually believes I'm spinning, because I don't think doing a twizzle is really what they meant when they said back spin!

Interesting that they've not pulled the kids up before level 8 with their sit spins as I'm sure it keeps coming up in the tests as you got up the system.


Well I managed to pass level 2 with a rather pathetic sit spin since my normally reliable one simply deserted me on the day. I would say mine was more of the 'right angle ' variety than thigh parallel to ice (and maybe not even that good).

Amazingly I managed to pull off a 2 rev backspin and that's all you need.

It helps to have some thing else that is way above standard which in my case was the basic stroking, which the judge was moved to comment on the high quality of, afterwards - along with the recommendation to " keep working on that sit spin!".:lol:

[fsk8r]

Well I managed to pass level 2 with a rather pathetic sit spin since my normally reliable one simply deserted me on the day. I would say mine was more of the 'right angle ' variety than thigh parallel to ice (and maybe not even that good).

Amazingly I managed to pull off a 2 rev backspin and that's all you need.

It helps to have some thing else that is way above standard which in my case was the basic stroking, which the judge was moved to comment on the high quality of, afterwards - along with the recommendation to " keep working on that sit spin!".:lol:

Thanks for telling me that. Makes me feel a lot better about my feeble attempts. I think the coach is going to hang on until there is something reliable so that I can have a bout of nerves on the day and be relying on the basic skating and the jumps. (Then again I'm currently thinking she's mad as she wants me to test my level 1 free next month and the programme was only completed on Friday - that's not exactly giving me time to prepare. But she knew I had papers in for other tests and thought I may as well fill my time whilst waiting for my dance test.)