Proposed Changes to Adult Skating in RFA for USFS Governing Council

[jenlyon60]

Got package of Requests for Action for this years Governing Council. So far, I've noticed the following included in the package. Posting abstracts here for comment...

301/302. Increase duration of Adult Bronze free skating event/test from 1:40 max to 1:50 max. Rationale: Adult Bronze skaters comprise age categories from 21 years of age to 50 years of age and over. As adult skaters age, there may be a diminishment in speed from element to element, therefore, this proposal allows for the completion of quality elements in their free skate and test program.

303. Amend Rule 3292 by redefining the age categories for Adult free skate and interpretive events as shown:

I. 21 years through 30 years
II. 31 years through 40 years
III. 41 years through 50 years
IV. 51 years through 60 years
V. 66 years and over

(JSL: this is how it was printed.... somehow I think they omitted the 61-65 year olds)

Rationale: The Adult Skating Committee has performed an extensive demographic analysis of competitors entered in the US Adult Figure Skating Championships for the past 6 years. Our analysis has revealed that the number of competitors has continued to grow in the upper age categories while the lower age categories have actually diminished in size. This proposal allows for a more balanced distribution of adult competitors entered in adult skating events, and it also creates an equitable field of play as adult skaters face the effects of aging-related changes to their bodies.

304. Amend Rule 3780 by substitution of the existing test qualifications at close of entries with the following:

To compete in Adult Gold or Championship Adult Gold, skaters MUST have passed at least ONE of the following:

-- The adult gold free skate test
-- The standard Juv free skating test and no higher standard free skate tests (if a skater has passed the standard juv free skate test on or after Oct. 1 1994 and no higher standard free skate tests, the skater must compete in adult gold).

Skaters may have passed the ISI FS 6 test but no higher ISI freestyle tests. Skaters may have passed the 2nd figure test and no higher before Oct 1, 1977. Skaters may have passed any figure tests or moves tests after Oct. 1, 1977.


305. To compete in Adult Silver, skaters must have passed at least one of the following:

-- The Adult Silver Free skate testand no higher adult free skate tests
-- Before Oct 1, 1994, the standard juv free skate test and no higher standard free skate tests
-- On or after Oct 1, 1994, the standard pre-juv free skate test and no higher standard free skate tests

Skaters may have passed the ISI FS5 test but no higher ISI Freestyle tests.
Skaters may have passed the 2nd figure test and no higher before Oct 1, 1977. Skaters may have passed any figure tests or moves tests after Oct. 1, 1977.


306. To compete in Adult Bronze, skaters must have passed at least one of the following:
-- The Adult Bronze free skate test, and no higher adult free skate tests
-- The standard preliminary free skate test and no higher standard free skate tests

Skaters may have passed the ISI FS 4 test but no higher ISI Freestyle tests. Skaters may have passed the 2nd figure test and no higher before Oct 1, 1977. Skaters may have passed any figure tests or moves tests after Oct. 1, 1977.

307. Approve a reuiqrement that solo dance events be offered at the US Adult Championships on a trial basis for a minimum of two years beginning with the 2009 Championships. Details of the events will be posted on the Adult Program page of the web site and in the announcement.

[jenlyon60]

And the proposed DANCE changes affecting Adult skating

329. Amend Rule 4460 Championship Adult Dance Event by replacing the Final Round Original Dance with a Free dance; increase the duration from 2:40 max to 3:10 max and define the Free Dance requirements in rule 4462 by substituting the language below for the Original Dance Language

Free Dance Duration: 3:10 max

Well-Balanced Requirements for Championship Adult Free dance

A. Lifts: 2 lifts, one of which may be a 12-second lift. (Rest of lift rules essentially match the rules for standard track competition).

B. Dance Spins: 1 Dance spin, either a Spin or Combo Spin, min 3 revs for Spin, min 3 revs on each foot for Combo Spin

C. Sync Twizzles: 1 Sync twizzle

D. Step Sequence (circular, midline or diagonal)

(More dance changes to come....)

[flying~camel]

I really hope the age group changes don't pass! I just turned 29 and am excited about finally getting OUT of class I!

[Debbie S]

I think the age group changes make sense. I always wondered why they didn't do it that way when they lowered the min age to 21. It seemed odd to essentially split the old class I, which at most levels had been the smallest group at AN (at least, for the previous few years).

And I get to still be a II for a few more years. :)

(although there is also something to be said for being the youngest in the group....)

[Ellyn]

The test requirements definitely make sense. And allow a returning skater to come back and compete at the silver or gold level as appropriate without having to go through all the levels of adult moves and freestyle tests.

[Mel On Ice]

well, I was never a II, so this drops me from a III to a II for at least II more years...

I'd love an extra 10 seconds!

[vesperholly]

The test requirements definitely make sense. And allow a returning skater to come back and compete at the silver or gold level as appropriate without having to go through all the levels of adult moves and freestyle tests.
There is already a crossover established for skaters who have tested in the standard track. For example, Intermediate moves exempts you from all adult moves.

This will allow standard FS tests to qualify you to compete at adult levels. About time, IMO. I had to take Adult Silver last year to be able to do ANs, even though I passed the (harder!) PreJuv FS ages ago. It seemed like a silly rule.

[jazzpants]

Age group... Hmmmm? So if I decide to compete next year as well (and not take a break to do more technical catchup!!!) I'll be in Group II when I compete this year again at Skate San Francisco 2008 but I'll still be in Group III when I go to AN next year!!! :P

And yes, Debbie! There is something to be said for being the youngest in the age group!!! :mrgreen: Of course, in MY experience, I usually get beaten by someone older anyway. :roll: :giveup: And TEE HEE HEE for forgetting the 61-65 age group!!! :P

[coskater64]

But the age groups are much more fair, skaters will skate against those in their same decade and the groupings are a little larger so more skaters, hopefully in the group.

[daisies]

303. Amend Rule 3292 by redefining the age categories for Adult free skate and interpretive events as shown:

I. 21 years through 30 years
II. 31 years through 40 years
III. 41 years through 50 years
IV. 51 years through 60 years
V. 66 years and over

(JSL: this is how it was printed.... somehow I think they omitted the 61-65 year olds)

It's just a typo. Age group V will be 61 years and over.

[coskater64]

Wow, I'll end up being a 3 for 12 years!!:bow:

[doubletoe]

But the age groups are much more fair, skaters will skate against those in their same decade and the groupings are a little larger so more skaters, hopefully in the group.

At least we won't be changing classes right as we hit 40, 50, etc. That might be just too much of a shock to the system, LOL! Hmm. . . Looks like I'll be Class III for the prescribed 10 years, since I was exactly 41 when they re-classified my age group as Class III in 2006. . .

[Stormy]

I'd really like for those age changes to pass. I'd be a I again, at least for a year, LOL...I was SO bummed being II this year! But it does make sense, the I groups are usually smaller, and the girls I met when I was in I were almost all 25 and over.

[Terri C]

Something to consider regarding the proposal of the extra 10 seconds for the Bronze freeskate:
While yes, the rationale is to give skaters more time to properly execute elements, footwork, etc, I can see coaches (like mine HA!) seeing it as a opportunity to add more stuff to the program in addtion to what could already be there. Is is a good assumption that the current WBP requirements will remain in place?

Also, will Pre Bronze free remain at 1:40 or adapt the 1:50 time (God forbid that I not pass my retest in May)?

[daisies]

Something to consider regarding the proposal of the extra 10 seconds for the Bronze freeskate:
While yes, the rationale is to give skaters more time to properly execute elements, footwork, etc, I can see coaches (like mine HA!) seeing it as a opportunity to add more stuff to the program in addtion to what could already be there. Is is a good assumption that the current WBP requirements will remain in place?

Also, will Pre Bronze free remain at 1:40 or adapt the 1:50 time (God forbid that I not pass my retest in May)?

Yes, the WBP will remain the same.

The test would also switch to 1:50. But it's a maximum with no minimum, so you could still do a 1:40 program if you wanted to.

[jazzpants]

I'm actually glad they're considering an extra 10 seconds. I have spin combo that will take add an extra 5 seconds PER SPIN if I make it a spin combo than if I just have a standalone spin.

(Deleted. I just saw daisies replied about the same time I posted my question.)

[Debbie S]

With the Bronze FS time changing to 1:50, will the time limit for Interp also change to 1:50? Actually, I've always thought that the Interp time should be 2:00 max - kind of a halfway point between Bronze and Silver time limits. I've seen some 'kid' club comps offer Adult Artistic and/or Showcase where the max time is 2:00.

[daisies]

With the Bronze FS time changing to 1:50, will the time limit for Interp also change to 1:50?
No, there are no plans to change the Interp time. The two are completely unrelated.

[sk8er1964]

Daisies -

Any thought about changing the interp times to match the Showcase Nationals (or whatever that event is called :oops: )? Just curious - I see announcements with both times allowed, and those with just the adult time allowed.

[daisies]

Daisies -

Any thought about changing the interp times to match the Showcase Nationals (or whatever that event is called :oops: )? Just curious - I see announcements with both times allowed, and those with just the adult time allowed.

No, there has been no discussion about it. As you know, AN is already an exceedingly long competition. Last year, IJS was added, making it longer. This year, the ability to compete in two Interps was added, making it longer. With proposals on the table to add solo dance and lengthen Bronze, it will be still longer.

So you can see why adding time to Interp isn't really a priority these days! ;)

[Figureskates]

Any way you cut it...I am still a V....:(

[LWalsh]

I support these changes, I think they make sense but get this....

I competed as a I, then went straight to a III when the age groups were realigned and now I'd get to compete as a II finally! Crazy stuff.

8-) I am feeling younger already!

LW

[icedancer2]

I don't like the idea of a coin-toss - there is enough confusion amongst the judges at our test sessions with all of the coming and going of panels and double-paneling and all of that. I wonder if the PTB have considered that scenario when coming up with this idea - it doesn't sound like they really thought it out in terms of what is realistic.

I also don't get the statement, "Skaters may have passed the 2nd figure test and no higher before Oct 1, 1977. Skaters may have passed any figure tests or moves tests after Oct. 1, 1977.

What is the magic date of Oct 1, 1977? Does this mean that if you passed ANY figures or Moves test after Oct. 1, 1977 you can skate Silver? That's waht it sounds like.

[Ellyn]

I also don't get the statement, "Skaters may have passed the 2nd figure test and no higher before Oct 1, 1977. Skaters may have passed any figure tests or moves tests after Oct. 1, 1977.

What is the magic date of Oct 1, 1977? Does this mean that if you passed ANY figures or Moves test after Oct. 1, 1977 you can skate Silver? That's waht it sounds like.

Yes.

Some changes to the test structure to keep in mind:

Before 1977, there were no separate freestyle tests. Some of the figure tests had freestyle portions added to them in the 1960s and early 70s.

If I remember correctly from when I skated in the mid-70s, the first one that included freestyle was the 4th figure test (novice).

Beginning with the 1977-78 competition season, separate freestyle tests were added, and skaters had to pass first the appropriate figure test and then the corresponding freestyle test to be allowed to compete at each level. The freestyle levels and their figure test prerequisites were preliminary (preliminary), juvenile (2nd), intermediate (3rd), novice (4th), junior (6th), senior (8th).

There may have been some changes over that period as to whether they were allowed to test ahead in figures or not, or whether novices and juniors had to pass the 5th and 7th tests to be able to compete.

But some skaters just tested and didn't compete, or passed one but not all of the tests needed to move up to the next level before they put testing on hold until coming back as adults.

Starting 1990-91, the USFSA separated figures and freestyle completely for novice through senior levels, but they were still combined for juvenile and intermediate, both in competition and in the test structure.

In 1994-95, the figures and freestyle were totally separated in competition at all levels, and the test structures were also separated so that figure tests were no longer prerequisites for testing or competing in freestyle.

Also in 1994-95 Moves in the Field were introduced as prerequisites for freestyle tests and competition, the Prepreliminary level was introduced, the Prejuvenile level (which had corresponded to the 1st figure test) was made official and given its own freestyle test, and the axel was added to the Juvenile freestyle test.

So as I understand it, basically,

If you passed the 2nd figure test when that test alone qualified you to compete juvenile (up to 1977), you can compete at bronze, silver, or gold, but you also have to have passed some sort of standard or adult freestyle test at some point to qualify you for the appropriate level.

If a lutz was required on your freestyle test (standard juvenile or prejuvenile), your adult competition level has to be at least silver; if an axel was required on the test (standard juvenile test starting in 1994), you have to compete gold.

If you passed any figure tests higher than the 2nd before 1977, that means you were qualified to compete at intermediate or higher competition so you have to compete Masters.

If you passed higher figure tests at a time when the figure tests alone did not qualify you for higher competition levels, the figure test level isn't considered to affect your freestyle level. Same as it's allowed to test ahead in MITF without affecting your freestyle competition level.

[icedancer2]

Yes.

Some changes to the test structure to keep in mind:

Before 1977, there were no separate freestyle tests. Some of the figure tests had freestyle portions added to them in the 1960s and early 70s.

If I remember correctly from when I skated in the mid-70s, the first one that included freestyle was the 4th figure test (novice).

Beginning with the 1977-78 competition season, separate freestyle tests were added, and skaters had to pass first the appropriate figure test and then the corresponding freestyle test to be allowed to compete at each level. The freestyle levels and their figure test prerequisites were preliminary (preliminary), juvenile (2nd), intermediate (3rd), novice (4th), junior (6th), senior (8th).

There may have been some changes over that period as to whether they were allowed to test ahead in figures or not, or whether novices and juniors had to pass the 5th and 7th tests to be able to compete.

But some skaters just tested and didn't compete, or passed one but not all of the tests needed to move up to the next level before they put testing on hold until coming back as adults.

Starting 1990-91, the USFSA separated figures and freestyle completely for novice through senior levels, but they were still combined for juvenile and intermediate, both in competition and in the test structure.

In 1994-95, the figures and freestyle were totally separated in competition at all levels, and the test structures were also separated so that figure tests were no longer prerequisites for testing or competing in freestyle.

Also in 1994-95 Moves in the Field were introduced as prerequisites for freestyle tests and competition, the Prepreliminary level was introduced, the Prejuvenile level (which had corresponded to the 1st figure test) was made official and given its own freestyle test, and the axel was added to the Juvenile freestyle test.

So as I understand it, basically,

If you passed the 2nd figure test when that test alone qualified you to compete juvenile (up to 1977), you can compete at bronze, silver, or gold, but you also have to have passed some sort of standard or adult freestyle test at some point to qualify you for the appropriate level.

If a lutz was required on your freestyle test (standard juvenile or prejuvenile), your adult competition level has to be at least silver; if an axel was required on the test (standard juvenile test starting in 1994), you have to compete gold.

If you passed any figure tests higher than the 2nd before 1977, that means you were qualified to compete at intermediate or higher competition so you have to compete Masters.

If you passed higher figure tests at a time when the figure tests alone did not qualify you for higher competition levels, the figure test level isn't considered to affect your freestyle level. Same as it's allowed to test ahead in MITF without affecting your freestyle competition level.

Wow - very complex but you basically answered my question. Thank you.

Just for a little bit of history (from my memory) -- I skated in the '60s and there were no freestyle tests until Novice, which was linked to your 6th test. It was all one test. First you did the figures (maybe in the morning) and then if you passed the figures you could do your freestyle - on that same test session. If you didn't pass the freestyle, you had to retry the whole test the next time, including the figures. I remember alot of skaters getting burned by that.

But before that there were no freestyle tests and you were just grouped by your figure test level. It's interesting to me how the system gets tweaked over time as the sport evolves.

Now I feel like I fall into kind of an odd category - I have one pre-Gold dance (Adult), no freestyle tests, 1st figure and Bronze MITF. If I wanted to compete dance I could do Silver or Pre-Gold (or I guess Championship) IF I had a partner. But if I wanted to do solo dance I would also have to do Silver or Pre-Gold but at this point can't really do those dances solo anymore. I could have five years ago, but age has really caught up with my skating skills... anyway, it is frustrating to not really feel comfortable or competitive in any of the existing categories. For Interpretive I would have to do Masters... but I don't jump or spin - I guess I could do that. I should take my inspiration from a woman who was in Masters Interp at PCAS who had competed Junior level at standard Nationals 30 years ago - she is a cancer survivor and just got back on skates a few months ago - if she can do it, so could I!!

But I digress. Thank you for the discussion/explanation.

[skaternum]

Dredging up this thread now that GC is here. Below is the feedback I sent to Toni and Nancy (my section vice), as well as my club's delegate.
--------------------------------------------------
I think you guys have put out a lot of great proposals for adult skating. I’ve encouraged my club delegates to vote in favor of all of them. However, I think the passage of RFAs 304 & 305 will leave something of an inequity with a couple of other rules in the rulebook. I *really* like RFAs 304 & 305, especially the consideration shown for the October 1994 change to the Juvenile test. It makes perfect sense that skaters who passed it when it was “easier” should be able to skate Silver rather than Gold in singles. However, here’s the catch: for Adult Pairs, rules 4120 and 4122 both allow the use of a singles freeskating test as a qualifying test to compete in adult pairs. (Please note that I strongly agree with this, and do not wish to open the debate as to whether they should or should not be allowed as qualifying tests!) Unfortunately, the Adult Pair rules for Silver and Gold do NOT take the October 1994 change into account. Currently, if you passed the Juvenile Freeskate at any point in your life, you are forced to compete in Adult GOLD pairs.

An example of this inequity can be seen with one of the skaters in my club. He passed Juv FS way back in the 1980s. If RFAs 304 and 305 are passed, he will be competing at Silver in Singles and at Gold in Pairs. That really doesn’t seem to make sense. I’m sure there are other skaters who would be affected by this.

I’d really like to see a similar “October 1994” provision inserted into the Adult Pair rules 4120 and 4122 to make things a little more equitable. Perhaps this was discussed already amongst the Adult Committee members?

Thanks for the hard work you guys have done this year with the proposals. I’m excited about the changes, and I think they’ll be generally well received.

[starskate6.0]

Yipeee..... I just got younger..:mrgreen: Im in III now instead of IV..

[SkaterBird]

Where are the amendments posted? Or are they posted yet?

[sk8er1964]

Yipeee..... I just got younger..:mrgreen: Im in III now instead of IV..


Yay! I'm now at the beginning of my age group instead of the end!

[jazzpants]

Yay! I'm now at the beginning of my age group instead of the end!YAAAAAY!!! Me too...at least by the time I get to Grand Rapids!!! :mrgreen: (Of course, I'll be competing with the young'ums in Group II at Skate SF this year too!!! 8O )

[climbsk8]

While I'm happy overall with the age groups as they're being divided, it has been one bumpy ride for me. In '06 I competed against 21 year olds in Gold II, because they combined the groups. I would have medaled had they not done that. This year, I became a III for the first time. And SERIOUSLY got my butt kicked! (Congrats to all the fabulous skaters in my group ... you know who you are!)

Next year, I'm going back down to II again, where I'll be for the next four years. So, I'll spend a total of 12 years in the same group. Whew.

Maybe they'll quit changing this stuff around now. And maybe I'll start skating clean programs ....