When do children start working on the Axel?

[kimmee4]

At what point do coaches usually start teaching the Axel? Double Toe Loop?
I am just curious. Mydd is finishing up USFSA freeskate 5 and will be working on FS6 soon. I know it says in fs6 - understanding of Axel. DD10 has been taking group lessons for a year and a half. She is just starting private but right now they are working on her first program for a competition in June. DD told me she can not wait to start working on her Axel and she thinks the double toe looks easier to learn than the Axel. She has flown through the group skating program. All of the jumps and spins have come extremely quickly for her. I have let her know that the Axel is not going to be like the rest of the jumps she learned and that she should expect to be working on the Axel and or double toe loop for a very long time. What would be considered an average time to learn one of these difficult jumps. I told her it could take a year or longer. Any opinions on this?

[Lenny2]

The time to learn an axel varies so much. Some kids (a very few) pick it up in a couple of weeks, but I know one girl who worked on it for about about six years before finally getting it at around age 14. I thought she would never land that jump. It's all about timing, which is very different from all the other jumps. Patience is important, as is learning the fundamentals to correct technique. Have her ask her coach when they can start working on the axel. They will probably start with doing waltz jump-loop jump combinations, which is the foundation for the axel jump.

[CanAmSk8ter]

Average time to first land it, or average time to have it consistent? I think most (not all) skaters take anywhere between 2 and 6 months to land the first one- although I've heard of it taking much longer- but it's not uncommon for it to be another six months to a year to get it consistent.

How much your daughter skates, both in and out of lessons, will factor into the equation too. At the upper freestyle levels, I like my students to be skating three days a week, although I'll settle for two. But I recommend that skaters working on axels and doubles be skating at least four days a week. Less than that is going to make the jumps take longer, but my bigger concern is that skaters at this level generally need more time than they think on the truly important stuff- the stroking, crossovers, edges, and turns that are the basis of everything in skating. Where is your daughter with moves in the field- has she taken her pre-pre yet, or is she close? That's something I'd expect her coach to be spending a lot of time on at this point.

[sk8tmum]

but my bigger concern is that skaters at this level generally need more time than they think on the truly important stuff- the stroking, crossovers, edges, and turns that are the basis of everything in skating. Where is your daughter with moves in the field- has she taken her pre-pre yet, or is she close? That's something I'd expect her coach to be spending a lot of time on at this point.

Absolutely. I've seen so many kids focussing on the magic AXEL and losing track of the fact that it's just one jump, not the whole game. I saw quite a number of kids trounced in competitions this year who had AN AXEL but didn't have good edges, turns, skating skills ... because they had been focussing entirely on the AXEL.

I've also seen some truly awful axels or quasi-axels (rotate on the ice and hop into a waltz jump) because the kids hadn't mastered strong entries, take offs, landing positions. But, the kids call it an axel because it is a front-takeoff jump ... although it isn't really an axel.

How long does it take? Like it was said before, it varies. (Plus, kids can GET and then LOSE an axel due to a growth spurt or the puberty-monster.) With some coaches, it can seem to take longer because they want a true axel (see above note) thats set into a way that will allow the student to go onto a double-axel as the next step (because you have to do it right to be able to get that additional rotation) and won't let the student do it 'wrong' but 'faster to get' - if that makes sense.

Just my two cents worth; I spent a lot of painful time this year watching a number of kids working on axels, and seeing how discouraged they got from not 'getting it fast' - and others getting discouraged when they got to a competition and discovered that a) the axel didn't mean an automatic gold and b) that other kids had something that looked a lot higher and better and tighter in the air, and that the judges rewarded more. [i've got a kid at that level in StarSkate when the axel-thing kicks in]

[techskater]

I've also seen some truly awful axels or quasi-axels (rotate on the ice and hop into a waltz jump) because the kids hadn't mastered strong entries, take offs, landing positions. But, the kids call it an axel because it is a front-takeoff jump ... although it isn't really an axel.

We call that a dis-axel

[sk8tmum]

We call that a dis-axel:lol:

We call it a half-axxxelled jump (slurring the x's into another consonant).
But yours is far more polite - !

[twokidsskatemom]

There is no right or wrong answer, it depends on the skater, type of body, coaching, how often they skate ect.
There are some that never get it. It doesnt mean that much that she went though basic in a short period of time. I dont mean to be mean, but that really is a jump that is different than the rest.
It took my daughter a year of trying just to have a cheated, semi looking axel and almost a nother whole year to have the one she has now.We have seen in the time it took her, skaters leave because they just couldnt get it.She first got her jump combos and then alot of waltz backspin, back scratch to get it.She was young when she started which is why we think it took 2 years to really have solid.
I wish her good luck and tell her not to give up !!

[peanutskates]

aww i know it's a bit late... but I think you shouldn't have told her that she should be expecting to work on it for a long time. This can set up a skater to be more afraid of the jump/mentally stuck... I know you tried to prevent possible dissappointment. But some people learn axel in just a few months... and you shouldn't discourage them or give them prejudices about things like axel...

[kimmee4]

peanuts skates - I know your right but I just did not want her to think that she would learn the axel as quick as she learned the other jumps (salchow, toeloop, waltz, flip, loop, waltz loop, loop loop & Lutz ). These jumps took literally no time to learn . I just did not want her to assume that because she flew through these basic skills jumps that the Axel would come quickly too. I hope she wont be fearful now:roll:

[twokidsskatemom]

peanuts skates - I know your right but I just did not want her to think that she would learn the axel as quick as she learned the other jumps (salchow, toeloop, waltz, flip, loop, waltz loop, loop loop & Lutz ). These jumps took literally no time to learn . I just did not want her to assume that because she flew through these basic skills jumps that the Axel would come quickly too. I hope she wont be fearful now:roll:
I am sure she will be fine. It really does take awhile, and the ones that hang in there and dont give up are the ones that end up with the jump.Its not the fear in a 10 year old that will stop her, its the fact it really does take awhile. Hard to wait !!
It is normal for a 10 year old to have all singles within a year or a year and a half.
Off ice helps !!!

[AshBugg44]

:lol:

We call it a half-axxxelled jump (slurring the x's into another consonant).
But yours is far more polite - !

Or a waxel!!!

[techskater]

Waxel at 41 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKyHW87FDqk

[Isk8NYC]

Or a waxel!!!

Waxel at 41 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKyHW87FDqk

That was my thought - thanks for the visual aid, lol.

Kids start learning the axel when they have good control of their singles, backspins, and edges. Usually, coaches wait until the skater has all their single jumps down, but that's not a hard-and-fast rule.

I know several coaches who teach the double toe loop before the axel because of the pull-in position - they feel it helps make learning the axel easier since that's the same in-air and landing positions. Teaching the axel focuses more on takeoff and position change, instead of the entire jump transition.

[kimmee4]

Thank you all for all the infortmation on the Axel.

Twokidsskate mom - I realize that you have more experience with skating than I but ........DD has only taken one 1/2 hr group lesson a week for the past year and 1/2. She learned everything during that time ....including scratch . scratch back, sit spin, camel spin and camel sit - spin. She did not even know how to skate forward when she started. She started private two weeks ago. All of the children she has skated in group, once she reached freeskate (her age) have skated much longer and have been taking private for over a year. Where dd skates, it is NOT the normal to pass through the program as fast as she has with only group lessons once a week. I realize this is not an indication of learning the axel. I was not asking for opinions on whether its normal or not but since you added you 2cents, I thought I would add mine. Also, its hard to judge when you have not seen a child skate.

No hard feelings . By the way, I saw you dd clip. She is an awesome skater. Very talented !!!:P

[twokidsskatemom]

Thank you all for all the infortmation on the Axel.

Twokidsskate mom - I realize that you have more experience with skating than I but ........DD has only taken one 1/2 hr group lesson a week for the past year and 1/2. She learned everything during that time ....including scratch . scratch back, sit spin, camel spin and camel sit - spin. She did not even know how to skate forward when she started. She started private two weeks ago. All of the children she has skated in group, once she reached freeskate (her age) have skated much longer and have been taking private for over a year. Where dd skates, it is NOT the normal to pass through the program as fast as she has with only group lessons once a week. I realize this is not an indication of learning the axel. I was not asking for opinions on whether its normal or not but since you added you 2cents, I thought I would add mine. Also, its hard to judge when you have not seen a child skate.
No hard feelings . By the way, I saw you dd clip. She is an awesome skater. Very talented !!!:P
I didnt mean to offend, just sharing what I have seen with skaters here. I do see skaters that pass out of basic and are ready for pre pre no axel in that time frame that only do group not private.When they start to be ready for pre pre is when they pick up privates.
Anyway have fun and hope she has a great skate at her first comp !!

[Lmarletto]

DD's coach doesn't start working on an axel in earnest until the skater has a fairly consistent lutz-loop, loop-loop-loop and six revolutions on a back spin. They are also just passed or very close to being ready for the Prelim moves test. But the axel is a weird jump. Kids who have flown through everything else can take more than a year to land a clean axel and other kids who's arms and legs are all over the place just suddenly get it together and figure out how to pull it all in tight.

The double sal and double toe seem to come a lot quicker, sometimes before a clean axel even. DD's coach usually starts double sal shortly after starting the axel, but not double toe until the double sal is looking pretty good.

[sk8tmum]

Then, there's the weird kid like mine who has as a strongest singl jump a flip, and thus finds the Double Flip to be easier than the others.

IMHO, it also goes back to the quality of the single jump: if a waltz jump (and backspin) has been taught to a degree of excellence, then the axel is better learnt; if the salchow has been taught and learned with excellent takeoff, landing, body position, etc., then, the Double will come easier and be of better quality. Which is why the coach a) still drills the single jumps and b) doesn't teach the double unless the single is done with a high degree of execution. 'cause if the goal is to get to a triple, you might be able to muscle thru a double with weaker technique, but, you'll be forced to get good technique to be able to land that triple.

And, what you can get away with on a single in terms of lack of height and power, you can't get away with, really, with a double.

So, I don't know. Maybe some of the kids need to slow down and realize that a +GOE on a single is a higher score than a downgraded double - ?

[kimmee4]

This is all great/ interesting information. Right now, since we just started private and do not do a private every week, she is only working on a program for her first competition. Then , in the summer it will be more instructional.

So, the axel is taken off from waltz jump take off position with rotation in the air similair to the backspin? Definetly seems very challenging !!! Do some of the coaches use the harness device for the Axel or double Salchow or is it reserved for the bigger jumps?

[twokidsskatemom]

This is all great/ interesting information. Right now, since we just started private and do not do a private every week, she is only working on a program for her first competition. Then , in the summer it will be more instructional.

So, the axel is taken off from waltz jump take off position with rotation in the air similair to the backspin? Definetly seems very challenging !!! Do some of the coaches use the harness device for the Axel or double Salchow or is it reserved for the bigger jumps?

Some coaches use it even for single jumps, and they also use it for axels on up.Some coaches dont use it, they feel like it is a crutch.
Im not sure about others, but for an axel here,most skaters are on the ice at least 3 days a week, some 5 days a week.
maybe someone else has some more information

[Lenny2]

In my (and our coach's) opinion, the harness should not be used until the skater is very close to getting the jump. I think some coaches use the harness far too soon in the learning process. The axel usually is learned beginning from a waltz jump/loop jump combination, and a waltz jump/ backspin/ jump out, then is attempted from a standstill for quite some time, to avoid the skater trying to use momentum to get the rotation. The harness should only be introduced once the skater has the feel of the timing of the rotation to help her get the feel and confidence for the landing of the jump.

[ibreakhearts66]

In my (and our coach's) opinion, the harness should not be used until the skater is very close to getting the jump. I think some coaches use the harness far too soon in the learning process. The axel usually is learned beginning from a waltz jump/loop jump combination, and a waltz jump/ backspin/ jump out, then is attempted from a standstill for quite some time, to avoid the skater trying to use momentum to get the rotation. The harness should only be introduced once the skater has the feel of the timing of the rotation to help her get the feel and confidence for the landing of the jump.

interesting how different coaching methods can be. IMHO, the harness is a good way to help the skater get the feel. since the axel is such a different feeling than the other singles, i think the harness can help the skater understand the snap.

as for when the axel is usually introduced...it varies so much. it always really frustrates me to see coaches start skaters on axels when they can barely (or not even) do a loop. to me, it seems totally irresponsible. i also hate seeing skaters work on double axels when they don't have a clean, consistent double loop.

[Skate@Delaware]

My coach does not use the harness. She calls it a crutch. She will not start you on the axel until you have a double-toe or double-salchow and a good backspin, loop, etc. She knows when you are ready.

She also advocates tons of off-ice training-jumps, plyometrics, strength-building, etc. (all the time but especially in prep for the axel).