Outside edges on inside edge

[Lisa_C]

I am currently in a USFSA Learn to Skate program. I am in Freestyle 3 and am having a problem with the Waltz 8. The point where I am having the problem is the step forward onto the outside edge and then coming back into the middle. When I try to come into the middle, I am sliding into the turn. During a practice session, I looked down at my feet and realized I am actually on an inside edge, not an outside edge, although I am turning correctly. After this revelation, I started working on my outside edges exclusively and realized all my outside edges are done on an inside edge. I am moving in the correct direction and my body looks right, but I am actually on the wrong edge. I'd never looked at my feet before, so I didn't realize it. It makes sense now why I can't seem to get a deep outside edge and am having problems spinning. I have tried to get a true outside edge, but I can only get a very shallow edge, and I can only hold it for about 1 second before my ankle turns in onto an inside edge.

My feet pronate excessively due to ankle sprains many years ago. I had the skate technician move my blades in some awhile back. I thought that helped, but obviously not enought. I also have Superfeet in my skates, and they helped me some so that I'm not so wobbly, but obviously haven't done much with the pronation.

Has anyone had any problems like this before? Do you think moving my blades in more will help?

[FlyAndCrash]

I had a similar problem when I started my alt. 3-turns. Mine was caused by bad upper body alignment. I was twisted too far anticipating the next lobe, thus pulling my body off-center and my foot to the wrong edge even though I was going the right direction. It was fixed when I started to lean more into the circle and kept the leading shoulder in a closed position. Also, maybe ask a the coach to physically lead you through the pattern to see if they can see the problem.

Definately have a coach take a closer look before moving your blades again though.

[dbny]

I had the problem on my R foot when my custom Klingbeils started to wear out. They didn't appear worn, and it may have been that I lost a lot of weight so there was too much room in them. At any rate, the problem was fixed with my new boots. It's possible that your boots are not exactly right for you, in addition to other problems.

[Mrs Redboots]

I have the opposite problem, and slip to an outside edge when trying to do a left inside edge. And so I skid.... Coach1 has diagnosed the problem, and told me what to do to solve it, but whether I shall remember or not....

[quarkiki2]

When I do this it's because I'm dropping my outside hip. I have veeeerrrrrry loose hips and must consciously lift my outside hip to get it level, then lift it some more to get it raised tothe right angle.

[Skate@Delaware]

I remember that this was hard to do because I was aiming at the wrong spot. Don't aim for the center/starting spot of the waltz-8 circle, instead aim straight...and let your outside edge c-u-r-v-e you around. Be sure you are using the correct arm/free leg position as well. Be sure that your circle is BIG! For beginners your circle should be as big as one of the red hockey circles. Really! Too tiny and you will not have flow and you will twist all up.

Lots of edge work will help. Lots!!!! And more edge work as well.

did I say practice your edges? Yes.....lots!!!!! Not just outside, but inside edges as well.

[mikawendy]

I have the opposite problem, and slip to an outside edge when trying to do a left inside edge. And so I skid.... Coach1 has diagnosed the problem, and told me what to do to solve it, but whether I shall remember or not....

I'm having that same problem on the left foot (outside edge when trying to do a left inside edge). It only happens in certain instances, but it sure does feel weird!!

[Skate@Delaware]

I would drop my hip (only on the right side, weird) AND my free foot was out to the side....instead of at my skating heel. Bad habit. Hard to break! I was mostly on a FLAT for a long time. (Not to mention me cheating with my shoulders).

My coach is good-she cut me NO SLACK and made me do tons of edge work until this was fixed.

[Lisa_C]

Thanks for all the advice. I'll work on more edges more and get my coach to help me with my technique.

[Kim to the Max]

I do this occasionally on my brackets in the field pattern for Intermediate moves...I can do my edges fine otherwise, it's the counter rotation with the brackets that screws me up...

[doubletoe]

It's hard to say without watching you skate, but it seems that if you are gliding forward on your left foot and your edge is curving out to the left, then your hips and shoulders must be doing what they are supposed to for an outside edge. If you are actually on the inside edge of your blade while you're doing this, then the problem must be occurring at the ankle, i.e., it must be dipping to the inside (pronating) instead of staying straight and lined up over the blade. How is the ankle support in your boots? Do you have a big crease there? Is there extra room in your boots? If so, you might need new, stiffer boots or boots in a smaller size. If the boots are stiff in the ankles and seem to fit correctly, then you may need either orthotics or blade re-alignment, or both.

[Lisa_C]

If anything, my boots are probably too stiff. They are still in good condition with no creases. I've actually just bought new blades, so I will probably experiment with adjusting the blades with the temporary mount to see if that helps any.

Unfortunately my coach will be out of town (as will many of the other coaches) for a competition this weekend, so I probably won't have much help with my technique. I'll try shifting the new blades around for now to see if it helps any and then work on technique more next weekend.

[Skate@Delaware]

Have you messed around with putting pressure on your blade using your skating foot? Instead of leaning with your body and twisting your arms all around, just pushing with the inside or outside of your foot inside your boot can shift your weight. This might help. Try skating forwards, as you would for gliding, then when you are one foot, shift your foot inside your boot...see what happens. Do it gently at first, it won't take much!!!

It's the same for change of edge spirals. Small shifts of the foot, change of edge and subsequent change of direction.

[Lisa_C]

Yes, I did try this after I discovered I was really using the inside edge instead of the outside edge. I could get to a very shallow outside edge, but couldn't hold it very long. This is probably something I'd like to get my coach to help me with when she gets back from the competition.

[Skate@Delaware]

I did notice that my edges got easier to do when I finally got boots that fit-my first pair was too big. When you are wearing boots that are not the right size, it is hard to be over your blade. If your boots are too stiff you cannot manipulate them either. Can't say much about boots that are too soft-my first pair of boots a long time ago (pre 1980's) were the single ply leather...no support at all but I did manage.

Your coach will be able to tell you...let us know!!! Coaching at a distance is sooooo hard!!!

[Sk8Dreamer]

I don't know... I was told that you really can't turn in the right direction if you're on the wrong edge. And that when I *think* I'm on the wrong edge, I'm actually really on the flat of the blade (which is bad enough, to my mind). Physics seems to bear that out. Now, for me, I think the issue is my feet: that is, my foot doesn't believe it can hold my weight at an angle, so as soon as I try to get over on an edge and let one foot bear my weight, that foot clenches up and tries to pull me back upright. My blades are adjusted as much as they can be. Watching and analyzing, I keep coming back to the conclusion that it is all in my head (or my foot's head, if there were such a thing!). I don't know if this observation will be helpful to anyone else.

[Sessy]

So what about rockers (or chocktaws? I still keep confusing those two since we call them differently)? They look like 3-turns but they take off the wrong edge for a 3 turn and yet end up on the same exit edge. But they're pretty hard, especially for a beginner... Unless of course blades are mounted wrong, since that tends to give some strange effects at any rate.
I think what would really help solve this discussion would be a video of you doing that waltz 8.

BTW are you sure your boots are hard enough for you? I've seen too soft or simply too wide boots cause people to have difficulties with edges. Also, how is your sharpening? My mom's previous blades were mounted fine, but they were messed up in the sharpening, one edge laid deeper than the other so the skate was always on that edge, regardless. And their rocker was almost entirely removed, which gave some very strange effects as well.

[Skate@Delaware]

I don't know... I was told that you really can't turn in the right direction if you're on the wrong edge. And that when I *think* I'm on the wrong edge, I'm actually really on the flat of the blade (which is bad enough, to my mind). Physics seems to bear that out. Now, for me, I think the issue is my feet: that is, my foot doesn't believe it can hold my weight at an angle, so as soon as I try to get over on an edge and let one foot bear my weight, that foot clenches up and tries to pull me back upright. My blades are adjusted as much as they can be. Watching and analyzing, I keep coming back to the conclusion that it is all in my head (or my foot's head, if there were such a thing!). I don't know if this observation will be helpful to anyone else.
he-he-he-the sure "cure" for that is a few lessons from "evil ice dance coach"!!! He/She will get you leaning on the right edge in no time at all!!!! ;)

I'm not sure who is more evil (I wonder where they learn to be evil???) ice dance or synchro coaches????

[Lisa_C]

I found a true outside edge!! I added heel wedges underneath my Superfeet insoles. It pushes my ankles into a more correct position. It's still not perfect, but it's better. I'm sure orthotics would be better, but I just can't afford them right now. I did not adjust my blades. The blade guy was not there when I went in to have him put on my new blades and adjust the blades inward, so I put the blades on myself (same brand, so same screw pattern). I skated on them for a while and was able to find an outside edge. I'm sure it will be much better once they are sharpened. I was just testing them out to make sure I had an edge.

[FLskater]

Lisa, are Superfeet like Dr Scholls inserts? I have always had problems getting on an outside edge, and just yesterday discovered that I'm falling to an inside edge when I attempt to spin. Also, any particular type of heel wedge? Maybe this is just what I need to do......

[Lisa_C]

Superfeet are inserts that are supposed to help with pronation. There are many inserts out there that are supposed to help with pronation, but most of them won't fit into a skate because they are too wide. Superfeet make a grey insert that is designed for narrower shoes with a slight heel like an ice skate.

My pronation is so bad that they only helped a little. I got basic heel wedges at a medical supply store. I bought a piece of felt and cut out an insole out of the felt. I attached the heel wedge to this felt and put this felt insole in the skate under the Superfeet insole. I didn't want to stick the heel wedge directly onto the skate.

This weekend will be the real test to see if it works. Haven't skated since I got my blades sharpened.

[icedancer2]

I also recently put a heel wedge under my right heal - I had been having problems with my RO edge and my coach kept harping on me about technique (yeah, okay, but at a certain point, it might be the foot/skate!!).

I bought a heel wedge at the local shoe-repair stand at the mall that I slipped under the insole of my skate. I won't say that my RO edges are perfect now, but I noticed the difference right away.

I am the type of person that is loathe to spend a lot of money on stuff that won't get me anywhere, but the $7 heel wedge is just the ticket for now. I've had one in my left boot for quite awhile but for some reason couldn't get into putting one in my right boot. Now things are better, at least for now.

Must go to podiatrist (putting things on a list)...

[Sk8Dreamer]

What do people mean by "heel wedges?" Something that goes under the whole heel, or something that goes under one side of the heel?

[icedancer2]

Oh - the heel wedge I use is only for the inside of the heel - it is wedged both to the side and towards the front if that makes any sense.

I don't know the brand... but I could pull it out of my skate - or if I go by the mall I will look.

[Sk8Dreamer]

Oh - the heel wedge I use is only for the inside of the heel - it is wedged both to the side and towards the front if that makes any sense.

I don't know the brand... but I could pull it out of my skate - or if I go by the mall I will look.

So it helps tip your foot toward the outside, where otherwise it might tend to "collapse" toward the inside (pronation)? I have a small heel wedge glued in under my insole from when I first got my skates; I'm wondering if maybe I could use something a little thicker/higher... Mine is cut from something rubbery (the skate shop did it for me). I'm not sure I've ever seen anything made specifically for that purpose for sale in a store. I'd love to find one and experiment with it.

[icedancer2]

So it helps tip your foot toward the outside, where otherwise it might tend to "collapse" toward the inside (pronation)? I have a small heel wedge glued in under my insole from when I first got my skates; I'm wondering if maybe I could use something a little thicker/higher... Mine is cut from something rubbery (the skate shop did it for me). I'm not sure I've ever seen anything made specifically for that purpose for sale in a store. I'd love to find one and experiment with it.

Yes - it helps with heel pronation - it's called a heel straightener. This is the brand I found at my local shoe-repair shop:

http://demo.letmeshop.com/_store/Display_Buy.asp?prodID=5016

I may still put another wedge in my heels, either on the heel of the boot itself or inside the boots. Haven't decided yet. I think I need to have a chat with my local boot-and-blade guy.

[FLskater]

Thanks, icedancer2! I'm going to try the shoe repair shop tomorrow!!!!:P