Orthodics

[miraclegro]

Well, i went to a new coach (2 hours away) - a Master Coach and i really liked her. Anyway, i have been struggling with pronation issues w/my right foot w/what seems like forever!

She insisted that after looking at my insoles that i need a hard orthodic, b/c the soft ones just don't hold up well. She has a history of pronation, too! I felt like i had finally found a kindred spirit!

She also said to move the blade slightly no matter what Klingbeil says.

I know Jacksons skates have something similar built in (hard insole),......

And the coach has to order hers (not for Jacksons) from Chicago---but they cost about $400!

Unreal.....does anyone have any input on this?

[skaternum]

Please be careful about moving the blade. If you get orthotics that correct your pronation, you shouldn't have to move the blade. And that can torque the boot ever so slightly. Just get the orthotics and see if that does the trick first.

[saras]

Well, i went to a new coach (2 hours away) - a Master Coach and i really liked her.

She insisted that after looking at my insoles that i need a hard orthodic, b/c the soft ones just don't hold up well. She has a history of pronation, too! I felt like i had finally found a kindred spirit!

I know Jacksons skates have something similar built in (hard insole),......


Part or all of the cost may be covered by your health insurance

I have a "softer" pair of orthotics in my street shoes - I have been using them nearly every day for the last 6 years and they're still working. They're a little more compressed than when I got them - but I had the orthotist check them for fit and they still fit my foot.

I have a "harder" pair in my skates (Jackson boots, which have a removable soft insole - like you find in running shoes that have removable insoles) which gives the boot the room it needs to accomodate the orthotic. This pair is narrower - so they'd work in regular dress shoes as well.

My street shoe pair does not fit into my skates - they're too wide. It's a great excuse to wear comfortable shoes every day all day though lol.

[dbny]

I too have pronation, and it was a problem even in my custom Klingbeils towards the end of their useful life. I tried my prescription orthotics in them, though Don Klingbeil doubted they would help. He was able to build in the correction in my new boots, and the problem is solved. Before getting the new boots, Don suggested I try Super Feet custom orthotics, as he has a colleague who is pleased with them. You can get Super Feet (http://www.superfeet.com/products/)customized automatically for about $50, and they make a model that's specifically for sports (though not skating - I think the ones for skiing might work).

[SkatingOnClouds]

Superfeet Grey are specifically for skating. I also have pronation problems, and got some superfeet grey for my skates. It made an immediate difference to my edge control, and I didn't even have to lace my boots as tight.

Over time the effect has diminished, but I have just ordered new Superfeet to go in my new skates. Not cheap, and not easy to get where I live, but I found they really helped me.

[miraclegro]

DBNY,

How does this Superfeet insole work with jumps? Because the new coach says you need something hard, especiall when working on higher level jumps?

[manleywoman]

Please be careful about moving the blade. If you get orthotics that correct your pronation, you shouldn't have to move the blade.

Not necessarily. I wear hard orthotics in my skates and moved the blade in slightly (more on the right foot). I haven't had any trouble in ten years.

[saras]

DBNY,

How does this Superfeet insole work with jumps? Because the new coach says you need something hard, especiall when working on higher level jumps?

the hard thing - basically, you want something that will hold your arch/foot in the correct position. My "soft" ones are dense firm foam - not squishy. They do the job and have done for 6 years now. My harder ones are even somewhat flexible.

[happysk8tes]

I use a Birkenstock orthotic in right boot only. The Sports Podiatrist filed it down a bit on one side. It worked wonders in my old Reidells, and so far so good in the new Gams I bought a couple months ago. I had to have the right inside heel punched out 3 times, as the orthotic made the stock (400) boot a bit off, but I think all is well, other problems are just the regular break in period.

I used a local fitter, but also drove up to Ottawa to visit a well known shop up there, wondering if I needed more help with the fitting. He cut a small v in the inside padding of both skates, just before the first hook starts, and things are better. He did highly recommend custom boots for anyone with pronation problems. So when/if! my son graduates from college next year, I can hopefully buy a new pair of skates and save these Gams for pond skates. I've always wanted Kleingbiels, but after reading others stories on these boards I guess they're not the all perfect fitting skates I had dreamed of.

Why can't Birkenstock make skates?!!! size 40N please. : )

Pat

[miraclegro]

To be honest, i think my old Harlicks were less trouble for fit. I went with Klingbeils because i was told they had the custom orthodics, but i have probalby spent hundreds of dollars sending them back to get tweaked, remade, etc. I don't hate the boots, they are very comfortable. I guess no place is perfect; but truly the Harlicks' heel gripper and things like that never compressed like some of the issues i have had with the Klingbeils.

[singerskates]

I tried Superfeet in my Gams and they sort of worked but not good enough for my pronation problem. At the moment, I'm waiting for my custom made not Superfeet orthotics for my new Jackson skates to be done and ready to try. As soon as I get them, I'm heading right over to the skate shop where I bought my Jacksons to check my blade alignment and once we know whether the blade needs to be move or stay, I'll have my boots heated one last time and the other screws added to my skates. Right now, I'm skating with hardly any screws attached to my skates. I'm almost doing all my jumps skating this way but my jumps are just a bit off and so is my centering in my spins now that my boots have started to break in. Still have a ways to go in breaking my boots in because I just moved from doing 2 hooks up to 3 hooks up and have another hook yet to do up.

[dbny]

Superfeet Grey are specifically for skating.

Thanks. That's great to know. It's been a while since I looked at the Supefeet web site. They must be new.

I've always wanted Kleingbiels, but after reading others stories on these boards I guess they're not the all perfect fitting skates I had dreamed of.

Why can't Birkenstock make skates?!!! size 40N please. : )

Pat

There is no boot that is perfect for everyone. You will hear stories about Harlicks and SP Teris that never fit right also. I live near Klingbeil or I might be complaining about shipping also - BUT Klingbeil does not charge for shipping that I know of. He shipped my old boots to me at no charge after he plumped them up when I got my new ones. I guess you would pay to ship them one way, in any case.

I LOVE Birkenstocks too, and actually asked Don Klingbeil if he could do a Birkenstock insole for me (it didn't happen).

[Query]

The classic problem with moldable orthotics is they only mold one surface - your foot, but not the boot. So it, and your foot, shifts all over inside, creating all sorts of problems. That includes the Superfeet. I don't know of any orthotic that molds to both the foot and the boot. It might be possible to mold something custom with hot cork under a leather insole, like some ski shops do.

Someone here used a moldable hard orthotic, that was wedged tightly inside the boot to prevent shifting. It gradually pushed out the boots, so they are now too wide!

I honestly can't see any good reason for hard orthotics, unless they just mean something that isn't squishy, which can be done just as well with soft orthotics. Of course I'm not a doctor, but it just doesn't make sense. As long as it doesn't compress, all hard means is it won't fit the boot.

Take a piece of leather or felt, cut to match the shape of your insoles. Add athletic tape underneath (or tape it to the boot under the insole) until everything feels just right, when you balance on the blade. Cheaper and easier to modify than expensive orthotics. But takes time. Most of the fit can be done off-ice. If you don't have enough pressure on the sides of the foot bottom, make the insole a bit wide, so it comes up beside the foot, and put tape under that part too where needed. (Arch collapse can be to the side as well as down.)

One thing some foot doctors don't realize is you can't change "gate" or foot/ankle/leg/hip position with a skate orthotic, because you have only one small point of contact with the ice at a time, unlike the planar surface you have in a shoe, so I'm told they often do a counterproductive thing, trying to use torque from the non-existant planar surface contact to create unequal pressures on the foot. These types of changes can only be done by skaters through athletic training. All an orthotic, doctor-made or home-made, can do, is equalize pressure, or prevent arch collapse. Some skaters around Maryland say podiatrist Paul Meisner (Kimmie's dad) understands skates.

Maire Smirman has a controversial explanation at somewhere http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/compadultsk8s (Message http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/compadultsk8s/message/53498 ) of what she has done about severe pronation. Basically, she favors pinching the _sides_ of the feet together at the arches, to prevent collapse, instead of supporting from below. That seems very unusual, and I think it would hurt. None of the major bootmakers could make a boot she liked, at least as fit by the 3rd party boot fitters she used, so she went some place else, starting with a custom last by Bill Tippit. He is the best known custom last maker outside skates, but thinks most people shouldn't go her route.

If you have uniformly tight fit very stiff boots, and they fit all over (left, right, bottom, top...), pronation is impossible, because the joints are imobilized; also probably uncomfortable.

I bet for mild problems, the tape thing is just right.

[jenn777295]

I went to a shoemaker who added arch supports to my boots. They are stiff foam wedges that were glued into the boot. They cost about $10 and work much better for me than the Superfeet orthotics. They give more support under my arches.

[mikawendy]

Part or all of the cost may be covered by your health insurance

And (regardless of whether health insurance is used to pay for the orthotics), the cost may sometimes be covered under a flexible spending account plan, if the orthotics are for a condition for which you are under the care of a doctor.

[miraclegro]

THanks Jenn and MikeaWendy,

We do have a cobbler shop here in town, and when Klingbeil sends them back this time, if they are not right, i will resort to other methods.

I didn't even think about my flexaccount working, but i guess as long as i don't mention it is for skating? - it would be approved better?

[sexyskates]

I have sport orthotics made by Surefoot and they fixed my pronation. They mostly fit skiers but the insoles are great in skates (and I wear them in my ski boots too).

[singerskates]

The classic problem with moldable orthotics is they only mold one surface - your foot, but not the boot. So it, and your foot, shifts all over inside, creating all sorts of problems. That includes the Superfeet. I don't know of any orthotic that molds to both the foot and the boot. It might be possible to mold something custom with hot cork under a leather insole, like some ski shops do.

Someone here used a moldable hard orthotic, that was wedged tightly inside the boot to prevent shifting. It gradually pushed out the boots, so they are now too wide!

I honestly can't see any good reason for hard orthotics, unless they just mean something that isn't squishy, which can be done just as well with soft orthotics. Of course I'm not a doctor, but it just doesn't make sense. As long as it doesn't compress, all hard means is it won't fit the boot.

Take a piece of leather or felt, cut to match the shape of your insoles. Add athletic tape underneath (or tape it to the boot under the insole) until everything feels just right, when you balance on the blade. Cheaper and easier to modify than expensive orthotics. But takes time. Most of the fit can be done off-ice. If you don't have enough pressure on the sides of the foot bottom, make the insole a bit wide, so it comes up beside the foot, and put tape under that part too where needed. (Arch collapse can be to the side as well as down.)

One thing some foot doctors don't realize is you can't change "gate" or foot/ankle/leg/hip position with a skate orthotic, because you have only one small point of contact with the ice at a time, unlike the planar surface you have in a shoe, so I'm told they often do a counterproductive thing, trying to use torque from the non-existant planar surface contact to create unequal pressures on the foot. These types of changes can only be done by skaters through athletic training. All an orthotic, doctor-made or home-made, can do, is equalize pressure, or prevent arch collapse. Some skaters around Maryland say podiatrist Paul Meisner (Kimmie's dad) understands skates.

Maire Smirman has a controversial explanation at somewhere http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/compadultsk8s (Message http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/compadultsk8s/message/53498 ) of what she has done about severe pronation. Basically, she favors pinching the _sides_ of the feet together at the arches, to prevent collapse, instead of supporting from below. That seems very unusual, and I think it would hurt. None of the major bootmakers could make a boot she liked, at least as fit by the 3rd party boot fitters she used, so she went some place else, starting with a custom last by Bill Tippit. He is the best known custom last maker outside skates, but thinks most people shouldn't go her route.

If you have uniformly tight fit very stiff boots, and they fit all over (left, right, bottom, top...), pronation is impossible, because the joints are imobilized; also probably uncomfortable.

I bet for mild problems, the tape thing is just right.

Well, it is possible to have custom orthotics made special for figure skates. I'm having this done for me as we speak. What my orthotics guy, who took a US course on making orthotics for skates, did was to make a cast of my foot and the bottom of my boot's original footbed that came with my skate. It will be made out of almost the same material that my original footbed for the boot was made out of except for the arch area which will be much firmer. The boots? Jackson Elite Plus. The only hang up is that it's taking so long for the orthotics to be made. Hope they are done this week. I need them like last month.