You think you're pushing....but you're not!!!

[phoenix]

Anyone else have issues w/ this? I blame my height, but I think adult (tallish) skaters in general may share this problem.

You think you're pushing hard & skating aggressively--but your coach/judges say you're too slow.

Then you see the video---gasp! It's true! I look like I'm half asleep out there! And I thought I was really going for it!

Coach worked on this a lot in my lesson today--it's the reason I failed my last test. I eventually started to get it a bit---finding that the secret is to skate flat out to the point where you feel like you're .5 millimeters from falling. At that point, he said it was "starting to get a little better."

Oy!

[coskater64]

Sorry to say--no not a problem, as I gain my strength back I find I am actually faster than before, I have never had a problem with power. I'm only 5'9"-5'10" ish but I have really long legs and generally they move. Relearning how to skate has helped me bend "a little" more and garner even more power.

I can honestly say I have never been told I was to slow...but maybe I'm the exception?8O

[phoenix]

The issue for me isn't that I'm skating slow--I actually have really good power. It's that I *look* like I'm skating slow. It's a visual perception thing.

[dbny]

An exercise I've seen and tried myself (not yet successfully :frus:), is to try to make it across the rink with a single T push. If you can do that, you ought to be able to get the power you need any time you want.

[phoenix]

An exercise I've seen and tried myself (not yet successfully :frus:), is to try to make it across the rink with a single T push. If you can do that, you ought to be able to get the power you need any time you want.

I can do that, no problem. Again--it's not that I don't have power--it's that I look like I don't.

[dbny]

I can do that, no problem. Again--it's not that I don't have power--it's that I look like I don't.

Ah, I didn't get that. It's your look! How about improving the degree of tension in your arms and legs, that is, really working the extension?

[phoenix]

Ah, I didn't get that. It's your look! How about improving the degree of tension in your arms and legs, that is, really working the extension?

Yes, I think that's a big part of it.

[Award]

I'm only 5'9"-5'10" ish but I have really long legs and generally they move.

ONLY 5'9-5'10 ? Only?..... oh..thanks for rubbing it in to us shorter ones hehe

[icedancer2]

phoenix - maybe you should post the video and we could see what you mean. You look slow but you're not?

What is your flow like?

[Sessy]

Hey Award, nevermind them horse-sized people. 5'5 is the way to go! 8-) 8-) 8-)

I think how you look definitely might be due to how tall you are. I know the coaches at my club keep going on to me about how I'll need to have twice the power compared to the little kids to pass the same tests, just because I am so much taller than they are.

[smelltheice]

It is merely the biomechanics of the individual. You can compare it with the animal kingdom. If you see a tall horse move, it looks like it is going in slow motion in comparison with a smaller horse which must move its legs much faster to cover the same amount of ground and distance. It is merely the perception from the onlooker that you are not moving fast but you are covering the same amount of ice, you just take longer "strides" to cover the ice. The fact of the matter is that tall people's limbs require more effort to move because the extremities are further away from your body and at the end, you are making a bigger arc with you hands/feet which gives the appearance that you are moving slower.

Just to point out, I didn't mean that anyone looks like a horse:lol:

[Sk8Dreamer]

Anyone else have issues w/ this? I blame my height, but I think adult (tallish) skaters in general may share this problem.

You think you're pushing hard & skating aggressively--but your coach/judges say you're too slow.

Then you see the video---gasp! It's true! I look like I'm half asleep out there! And I thought I was really going for it!

Coach worked on this a lot in my lesson today--it's the reason I failed my last test. I eventually started to get it a bit---finding that the secret is to skate flat out to the point where you feel like you're .5 millimeters from falling. At that point, he said it was "starting to get a little better."

Oy!

If your coach also says you're too slow, is that assessment made from observing from the boards or from skating beside you? As a way-too-slow skater myself (and only barely 5'2", though I don't think that's relevant), I know that when my coach says I'm too slow, I am too slow. Eight-year-old skaters are short, and they can whiz across the ice--does anyone tell them they're going too slow? I guess what I'm saying is that maybe it's something in your stroking, and not just that it's a visual thing. Oh, and if it makes you feel any better, you'd probably look like a speed skater next to me! I know that I really need to work on my push--I have a hard time getting any real power out of it, and I think it's more momentum that gets me across the ice than my own pushing. Very frustrating, I must say...

[Bill_S]

Just a thought...

I've got a suggestion that everyone has probably heard before - if you look too slow, bend your skating knee more.

This (at least to me) suggests power is being put into the skating foot. Straighter legs tend to look more like you're just coasting along.

[mikawendy]

Just a thought...

I've got a suggestion that everyone has probably heard before - if you look too slow, bend your skating knee more.

This (at least to me) suggests power is being put into the skating foot. Straighter legs tend to look more like you're just coasting along.

And also your skating ankle, too. I know it goes hand in hand, but if I bend my knees without also focusing on deep bend in my ankles, I find my pushes aren't as strong.

[cecealias]

Speed across the ice is directly related to your edge technique. U dont have to move fast to get a lot of power or speed. Next time ur coach complains, ask them to fix ur stroking and work on edge technique.

[Award]

My guess is that if you feel that you're pushing hard, but it doesn't 'appear' that way from the outside, then you are:

1) Probably pushing hard, but might not getting the best efficiency for the power that you're putting in. So an analysis of the method you're using might help.

or

2) Probably pushing hard, but you're at your performance limit.

[kayskate]

One of my former coaches told me I was skating "on top of the ice" when I should be skating "into the ice". He meant I was not working my edges to get speed. Ask your coach how to get speed in your pushes.

Kay

[phoenix]

Here's my Killian practice from this week. I screwed up the last choctaw, but it's enough to get the idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9649BZlV3IU

[slusher]

you're so brave to put up video!

It's a nice dance, but the Killian is hell on wheels it's gotta moove, and um, well, I see what you mean. I'll admit, I can't do this dance, I hurt myself badly on the choctaw and will never ever do it again.

My only real suggestion is that you try to skate it to the music as much as possible, I push harder in everything when I have to keep to a beat. So, maybe it's not just about this dance, but what about stroking exercises to music?

[phoenix]

you're so brave to put up video!

Just please don't laugh! I really am trying hard, though it doesn't look like it!


It's a nice dance, but the Killian is hell on wheels it's gotta moove, and um, well, I see what you mean.

My only real suggestion is that you try to skate it to the music as much as possible, I push harder in everything when I have to keep to a beat. So, maybe it's not just about this dance, but what about stroking exercises to music?

Yes, I think you're right. My coach makes me do progressives in a circle to the music (1 step per beat). But I admit I don't do that much on my own, or run patterns w/ the music. Partly because I usually skate on pretty crowded sessions, but maybe I'll just have to plow on through the little kiddies!

I don't have trouble keeping up w/ the music until I start thinking about more extension--then I get behind. I like smelltheice's comment about the big horse looking like it's moving in slow motion--that's me!! I'm very tall, and it's really hard to keep up w/ very fast music w/o sacrificing extension & deep knee bend.

[Mrs Redboots]

I wouldn't dream of laughing - I just wish I could skate as well! I can do a Kilian choctaw very slowly and carefully, but I can't begin to do the Kilian and have no real interest in trying!

[looplover]

Here's my Killian practice from this week. I screwed up the last choctaw, but it's enough to get the idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9649BZlV3IU

I admit I know nothing about ice dancing, but from what you'd said I expected you to move at a snail's pace, and then I watched the video...it looks like you have fantastic power and flow to me! So I'm confused. :D

Someone else said the Killian has to be really speedy so maybe that's it?

Anyway I think you're too hard on yourself because it looks to me like you skate with confidence and power. I guess the only thing to do to speed up, like the others said, is to really dig into those edges?

[GordonSk8erBoi]

An exercise I've seen and tried myself (not yet successfully :frus:), is to try to make it across the rink with a single T push. If you can do that, you ought to be able to get the power you need any time you want.

Do you mean the short axis of the rink? Long seems a bit much to expect, but maybe not.

[icedancer2]

Your dance is very nice and you can hear the crunch of the edges, which is great, but like you said on the youtube post, you look very careful out there. Nice and neat and careful. Your extension in the intro and in the 2-beat steps is okay but you are just "stepping" in the steps leading up to the choctaw.

I think if I were judging your test I might say that you need to bend into your knees and ankles more, and into the tops of your legs more - you know - the hips (my coach is always ragging on me about skating with straight hips - I can't explain it... but she is the only person I have ever heard talk about this) and get more extension with your free-leg. The dance lacks "punch" so to speak, so think of really striking the ice when you stroke. The dance looks more like a slow foxtrot than a march. I am also aware that the video makes you look even slower than you are, so it is probably more like a regular foxtrot than a slow foxtrot just because of the media that is video.

And yes, to all of you non-dancers, the Killian is a strong, fast dance. Difficult to do. Looks simple and a lot of freestyle kids love it, but when it comes down to the details, it's hard! I am totally scared of this dance, by the way. I used to be able to solo it, but now... eeekkk!

[lovepairs]

Phoenix,

I just watched your video, and I don't think you are slow at all. Here's the riddle that I always wonder about:

Even the fastest adults never look as fast as the elites do; so, what exactly is it that makes the difference??? I just can't figure it out???

I think it's probably a whole bunch of things including always being on the sweet spot of the blade. I think that everytime we put the brakes on by being slightly in front, or behind that sweet spot, that it adds up and slows down the momentum. Of course, posture plays into this enormously. However, there is something else that holds adults back, and I don't think it can all boil down to fear either...there's something else missing. I wonder about this for myself all of the time.

Comparatively speaking, as an adult skater, after viewing your tape, I think you move really nicely with flow and speed. Might be worthwhile to ask your coach to whom he, or she, is comparing you to?

[doubletoe]

Even the fastest adults never look as fast as the elites do; so, what exactly is it that makes the difference???

I bet adults who passed all the MIF tests through Senior skate fast! LOL!

[Award]

Phoenix, I just watched your video, and I don't think you are slow at all.

I watched the video too. It's not 'that' slow. I agree. But I believe that phoenix could potentially go heaps faster than that. I think what's holding back the speed is the push-out of the pushing skate is not getting enough power on the push ...... this is also equivalent to not pushing out fast enough. But I also think that the speed will normally come with time anyway. Like, instead of pushing out slowly (with little power) like a sunday stroll......eventually, the skater will know how to go faster by really getting in there and do hard and fast and lengthy push out.

[lovepairs]

I bet adults who passed all the MIF tests through Senior skate fast! LOL!

Well, my partner and I are working on Novice Moves right now. We are both in our 50s, but no matter what we do, or how hard we try...our moves never have that same buttery flow like the kids? I've seen a few Adults test Sr. Moves, and it doesn't look as fast as the kids.

Actually, this is a good case in point: I passed my Gold Moves pretty quickly and easily. Then I thought that I'd just slide over to the Standard Track and test Intermediate, because at the time (with the exception of one move) all the moves on the Adult Gold and Intermediate Standard were the same. Boy, was I blown away, because the "standard" was so much higher; they had to be faster and much more confident. It was like they were completely different moves, even though exactly the same, and it took me four tries to pass that test. :?? So, what's the difference?

[Stormy]

I actually did the opposite, I passed Intermediate several months before I passed Gold. I really didn't find much different between the two myself, because I always tried to do both tests with equal power/confidence. Which I'm trying to bring through into Novice....Novice moves is hell on ice! :giveup: :giveup:

[jskater49]

Here's my Killian practice from this week. I screwed up the last choctaw, but it's enough to get the idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9649BZlV3IU

Well it's a heck of a lot faster and more powerful than I could muster up. But honestly, my dd is working on that dance and she looks much faster (and quicker) and when a judge got her out on the ice to tell her what she wanted (long story why a judge was giving my dd a lesson) she yelled at her to push even harder. This is just what I know from watching DD learn this dance is that it's much quicker than what you were doing which isn't the same thing as speed and power necesarily. I've always known you can be quick and not have power, but it kind of looks like you have power but are not quick. But I am not a coach or a judge or someone who would even attempt the Killian (remember I can't do the freaking mohawk in the swing dance)

j

[icedancer2]

I've always known you can be quick and not have power, but it kind of looks like you have power but are not quick.

I think this is what I was trying to say in my post - you have power, but your feet are not quick, not striking the ice in that fast, quick, punchy, Killian way.

In dance we talk about certain skaters being better at Tango or Waltz or Killian or whatever. To me phoenix looks more like a waltzy or foxtrot-y skater than a "Quick-March" skater. There is nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it is - unfortunately for test-taking, you have to try to be everything, or at least fake it for that few minutes of the test.

In dance also we have the Adult and the Standard track. On the Adult track you don't have to do any solos and the tests are marked a few points below the Standard track. I'm assuming you are taking the tests "Standard" phoenix?

[dbny]

Do you mean the short axis of the rink? Long seems a bit much to expect, but maybe not.

By "across", yes, I mean the short axis.

Phoenix,
Even the fastest adults never look as fast as the elites do; so, what exactly is it that makes the difference???


There are also a lot of young skaters who grew up skating and achieve Sr level, but never look as fast or have the flow of the elites. Don't forget that when comparing to elite skaters, you are comparing to those who are far beyond the level of the highest proficiency tests. With adults, though, (meaning those who never skated as children), I think the biggest problem is that there is always just a little holding back, a little discomfort, and that is manifested as a deficiency in flow.

I actually did the opposite, I passed Intermediate several months before I passed Gold. I really didn't find much different between the two myself, because I always tried to do both tests with equal power/confidence.

That's not at all surprising. Of course Adult Gold would seem like nothing special after passing Intermediate. It is judged to a lower standard. You went from high to low; a piece of cake compared to going from low to high.

I think this is what I was trying to say in my post - you have power, but your feet are not quick, not striking the ice in that fast, quick, punchy, Killian way.


I agree. I also think you look a bit careful and could use more attack with this dance, particularly on the Choctaw, which does not look well enough defined; maybe needs deeper edges. Haven't you passed the Paso Doble already? I would think that if you passed that then you should have the quickness and attack needed for the Kilian. Maybe you just need more time to gain more confidence on it.

[phoenix]

icedancer2 & jskater49 have hit the nail on the head, at least for this dance. The lack of "crispness" is what failed my test for me. And you are most definitely right icedancer2--I am naturally a 'waltzy' flowy type of skater, & have a far more difficult time w/ the quick dances. Case in point--I worked on the Blues (an edgy, flowy, swoopy dance) for 2 weeks, and passed it with points over. This Killian--we're going on 2 years. *sigh*

And yes, I'm testing standard track, which means I have to solo it as well as partner.

And btw, I haven't passed the Paso yet, in fact I've just barely started to work on it. At which point the quickness/attack issue will rear its head again. :giveup:

I also agree w/ the others that say we adults have "something" about us that make us look less.....'something' than many of the kids. It may be a confidence or ease on the ice that just comes with a lifetime of being in skates. I know for a fact that on this Killian I definitely rein it in because I'm afraid I'll hit the wall, afraid of the depth of edge required at the speed required (though that's getting better), and I definitely tend to hesitate going into the choctaw. As someone else said, this dance is so much harder than it looks!

[doubletoe]

Well, my partner and I are working on Novice Moves right now. We are both in our 50s, but no matter what we do, or how hard we try...our moves never have that same buttery flow like the kids? I've seen a few Adults test Sr. Moves, and it doesn't look as fast as the kids.

Actually, this is a good case in point: I passed my Gold Moves pretty quickly and easily. Then I thought that I'd just slide over to the Standard Track and test Intermediate, because at the time (with the exception of one move) all the moves on the Adult Gold and Intermediate Standard were the same. Boy, was I blown away, because the "standard" was so much higher; they had to be faster and much more confident. It was like they were completely different moves, even though exactly the same, and it took me four tries to pass that test. :?? So, what's the difference?

Um. . . Yeah. :roll: Me, too. . . I guess there's something to be said for teaching your body new movements and a new medium (ice) when the body is still developing. It's just like it's not impossible for someone to learn a language after puberty and not have an accent, but it's extremely rare.

[kander]

Regarding adults appearing slower than the kids: It is true that adults generally are slower than the kids, and everybody is slower than the elite skaters. But I think there is an illusion at work too. If you look at a little kid skating the same speed as an adult, the kid looks like they are going faster. Maybe it has something to do with perspective. It's like the moon looking bigger on the horizon than straight overhead. It depends on what you're comparing it against.

[lovepairs]

Um. . . Yeah. :roll: Me, too. . . I guess there's something to be said for teaching your body new movements and a new medium (ice) when the body is still developing. It's just like it's not impossible for someone to learn a language after puberty and not have an accent, but it's extremely rare.

The "language" analogy is really good. Perhaps, it's the same difference learning language as a kid and naturally picking it up, and learning a new language as an adult, which can be difficult. Again, easier for some, but, perhaps more difficult for others, such as myself.

Kander,

You are right. Context is everything! That's why I asked Phoenix to ask her coach, in terms of the speed, who she is being compared to? Perhaps, the coach is just comparing her to the "standard of that particular dance?" It has to be fast, crisp, and confident; maybe there is a wider window of dancing this dance to standard then we think. In other words, maybe it's not a matter of skating it as fast and sure as some of the kids and elites, but, rather, skating it up to the "dance," so it looks confident and pleasant.

Adult Nationals is a great place to really contextualize ourselves as Adults--to be able to have an idea of how we are doing. It can become really discouraging at times when you are constantly training with kids and elites. I had a total melt down on the ice this season, because we were on practice ice with Melissa Gregory and Denise Petrukov week after week, and on day they came wizzing by us, and she looked so totally beautiful that I had this "crisis" of "Why was I even bothering, and that I really didn't belong out on the ice at all." It was a very deep "why am I bothering at all" moment, which reduced me to tears. So, I had to spend some time getting my "context thing" back into place. It's so hard when there is so much that you desire to accomplish and are already up there in age, as my partner and I are.

Actually, this is why we put together the Protopopov Pairs clinic for the summer Adult Week in Lake Placid. It began 4 years ago when Lee and I looked at each other and said "how much longer can we do this (skating pairs)? So, knowing that the Protopopovs were in their 70's and still practicing 5 hours a day, I said "let's go work with them and see!" So, we did and have been working with them every summer since then, and it has been a really good thing for us interms of "contexualizing" exactly what is possible for us for the future. Yes, I know they were Olympians and that this has a lot to do with why they are still skating incredibly beautifully in their
70's, but you'd be surprised that there are really a lot of similarities, too, because after all the body is the body and it will only yeild to so much as time goes on. What we've learned from them is that if you pay attention to your body in many ways, diet, excersize, happiness, relaxing, ect...that it will always yeild more than you think!

Anyway, just one last thought: IMHO, because of everything that's being said here, I really think that there needs to be an "Adult" version of the IJS. Does anyone agree, or disagree with this sentiment?

[slusher]

When I look at the video again and then look at competition compulsories (also on Youtube), it's steps 3 and 4 of the dance that show the power and flow and speed. That's the two edges, left and right after the progressive.

Someone once said to me that the Killian without the choctaw is just a stroking exercise and that's true. Although these are just two edges, the Killian is a polka, and they have to be powerful, fast, bouncy and light. They're also edgier and lobier, BIG left and BIG right using every stretch of knee and extension that you've got. Get right up, chin to the sky, smile and work it.

When I went into a competitive rink and had to skate with mirrors I was horrified at my extension. I know I look better now, and I think I skate just about the same speed, I know I do because of my program timing, but everyone thinks I got faster. Push, squeeze the butt and get that leg all the way out. I'm currently going through it with crosscuts, to get the maximum extension for a better look. I can go as fast as I need, but it looks "adult".

I also use to skate basic stroking in dance hold with my old dance coach. He skated at the speed we had to go, which was much faster than what I thought I needed. That gives your body the mental memory of what fast and powerful should feel like.

I do like your dance though, you have neat feet and the choctaw is good and placed well, and thanks again for putting up video.

[Mrs Redboots]

Do you mean the short axis of the rink? Long seems a bit much to expect, but maybe not.

It can be done; not from a standstill, but one of my coach's favourite pieces of torture is to require me to skate as fast as possible up one side of the rink, gaining speed with runs round the end, then push of and HOLD the edge, free leg extended, the whole of the opposite side of the rink. Then repeat, this time on the other foot. One side is usually better than the other!


icedancer2 & jskater49 have hit the nail on the head, at least for this dance. The lack of "crispness" is what failed my test for me. And you are most definitely right icedancer2--I am naturally a 'waltzy' flowy type of skater, & have a far more difficult time w/ the quick dances. Case in point--I worked on the Blues (an edgy, flowy, swoopy dance) for 2 weeks, and passed it with points over. This Killian--we're going on 2 years. *sigh*

And that is one reason why ice dance is harder than free skating - free skaters can select their music to suit their particular style; dancers, except in their free dance, can't, but have to skate well to every style - waltz, blues, foxtrot, march, samba....

[techskater]

To the person who said "adult skaters will never skate with the same power/speed as an elite", I agree and disagree at the same time. I've been to watch competitions in our area (junior and senior ladies) and there is a marked difference between Junior and JUNIOR and Senior and SENIOR. For example, Fumie Suguri came to get an IJS critique to one of our local competitions. She warmed up with the last group of Senior ladies (who were the top 4 after the SP) and she made them look like they were skating through mud. Two of these ladies made it to Sectionals later that year and one even made it to Nationals.

I think an adult who works very hard on their stroking, edgework, power, etc can look like a Junior or a Senior, but it takes a special skater overall to be a JUNIOR or a SENIOR level skater. They are hard to replicate.

[lovepairs]

I think an adult who works very hard on their stroking, edgework, power, etc can look like a Junior or a Senior, but it takes a special skater overall to be a JUNIOR or a SENIOR level skater. They are hard to replicate.

In your opinion, why do you think it is so hard let's say for an Adult (who never skated as a kid) to replicate even a JUNIOR or a SENIOR level skater?

Having said that, do you think there should be a little "wiggle room" in the IJS, or an IJS tailored more towards what Adults actually do? Really, I'm very interested in what other Adult Skaters think about the IJS at this point as it is applied to Adults. For example:

Last year at AN in Chicago the Pair Teams put out somewhere around 26 lift all together (I can't remember the exact number,) but fewer than 3/4 of these lifts were given any credit, even though the woman were up there in the lift with many of them being over head. After inquiring about it, one technical specialist said that it was because the men's arms weren't totally locked out. Then another technical specialist said it was because once the woman hit the top of the lift, through the rotation, the mens' arms came down (were are talking an inch or so here.) Clearly, the technical specialists were treating us with the exact same rules as they apply to the elites. However, the difference being that it's a freakin miracle that the adult woman are really up there at all, and both the men and woman should be given some credit, even though the lifts weren't flawless.

Then there is the rule about the men's free leg having to be parallel to the ice when they are in a sit spin for it to count. How many adult men can really pull this off like the elites? Very few, with the exception of a few of the younger Adult competitors.

Again, this begs the question of "context" and how fast if really fast?

[doubletoe]

Having said that, do you think there should be a little "wiggle room" in the IJS, or an IJS tailored more towards what Adults actually do? Really, I'm very interested in what other Adult Skaters think about the IJS at this point as it is applied to Adults. For example:

Last year at AN in Chicago the Pair Teams put out somewhere around 26 lift all together (I can't remember the exact number,) but fewer than 3/4 of these lifts were given any credit, even though the woman were up there in the lift with many of them being over head. After inquiring about it, one technical specialist said that it was because the men's arms weren't totally locked out. Then another technical specialist said it was because once the woman hit the top of the lift, through the rotation, the mens' arms came down (were are talking an inch or so here.) Clearly, the technical specialists were treating us with the exact same rules as they apply to the elites. However, the difference being that it's a freakin miracle that the adult woman are really up there at all, and both the men and woman should be given some credit, even though the lifts weren't flawless.

Then there is the rule about the men's free leg having to be parallel to the ice when they are in a sit spin for it to count. How many adult men can really pull this off like the elites? Very few, with the exception of a few of the younger Adult competitors.

I think that's the very reason why IJS is only used for Gold and Masters in U.S. adult skating. Whenever positions (i.e.,high sitspins) and jumps (i.e.,waltz jumps and pre-rotated toeloops) that don't count under IJS comprise a significant percentage of the programs, it makes the system less viable. Not to mention the issue of how to score a half rink footwork or spiral sequence when full ice surface coverage is an assumed requirement for a level 1.

For Pre-bronze, Bronze and maybe even Silver, I think it would make sense to develop a modified version of IJS that allocates values to these elements. However, as a Gold skater, I personally consider it an achievement and a sign of respect to be judged by the same standards as the standard track skaters. Sure, it hurts to look at your scoresheet and find out that you apparently can't do a single toeloop. But on the other hand, the feeling I got when I saw that an element I did got the same score as a high level skater was so priceless that I wouldn't give it up for the world. I feel like that's the ultimate validation as an adult skater.

[lovepairs]

I understand what you are saying, Double, and on a personal note I prefer the IJS over the 6.0 system; the reason being that it really is a challenge.

However, like Tech said in a previous post, it's really hard to find an Adult Skater who can truly skate up to a JUNIOR and SENIOR level and give off the same appearance as a competitive kid skater, or elite skater, but then, on the other hand, we are being judged with a system that is designed for elite skaters. This is somewhat of a contradiction, but I suppose if we are all being held against the same judging system that it actually all comes out in the wash in the end.

Anyway, just wondering what other people thought about it...

[coskater64]

6.0 was used for elite skaters and we were judged under that for years. IJS makes you do what you do well, why should it be modified? 6.0 wasn't modified for adults and we did fine under that. I would rather know what I did right and what I did wrong, I skate for a challenge to get better each time.

I prefer IJS and if my sitspin isn't low enough I will work to make it lower, if my toe loop is pre rotated I will learn to do it correctly. I don't think it is a terrible burden to ask for things to be done with good technique. If you are skating at a gold or masters level it doesn't seem unreasonable.:roll:

[cecealias]

ITA about the Elite Junior/Senior comparison. The other day I looked at young lady in her teens who was working on Junior moves, and I was amazed at how horrifically slow her overall skating was, not just the new moves she was learning... now, don't get me wrong - everything was technically correct but just low power and limited lean into the edges.

I think to get the speed, you really have to experiment a lot and push your boundaries....If you are constantly willing to try to push the limits of how far you can lean on the edge without falling over AND not be afraid to fall or crash into the wall, then you will be become a faster, better skater. You also learn how to crash more gracefully at speed. The other thing is not to be embarrassed or fearful of making mistakes or falling - I think this is the number one thing that holds people back - being afraid to make errors - and this is not entirely age dependent, but more personality dependent - there are plenty of young skaters out there that are terrified to make mistakes and it holds them back everyday.



I think an adult who works very hard on their stroking, edgework, power, etc can look like a Junior or a Senior, but it takes a special skater overall to be a JUNIOR or a SENIOR level skater. They are hard to replicate.

[doubletoe]

I would rather know what I did right and what I did wrong, I skate for a challenge to get better each time.

I prefer IJS and if my sitspin isn't low enough I will work to make it lower, if my toe loop is pre rotated I will learn to do it correctly. I don't think it is a terrible burden to ask for things to be done with good technique. If you are skating at a gold or masters level it doesn't seem unreasonable.:roll:

I agree, and even though, as adults, many of us have physical challenges that make it more difficult, IJS gives you options. Since you know exactly what counts and what doesn't, you can strategize to work around your weaknesses. For example, if you know your sitspin isn't quite low enough, it's possible to do an entire program without a sitspin and still get decent points for your spins, especially if you can do your other spins well and learn a few difficult variations on them.

[lovepairs]

6.0 was used for elite skaters and we were judged under that for years. IJS makes you do what you do well, why should it be modified? 6.0 wasn't modified for adults and we did fine under that. I would rather know what I did right and what I did wrong, I skate for a challenge to get better each time.

I prefer IJS and if my sitspin isn't low enough I will work to make it lower, if my toe loop is pre rotated I will learn to do it correctly. I don't think it is a terrible burden to ask for things to be done with good technique. If you are skating at a gold or masters level it doesn't seem unreasonable.:roll:

About what you said above for the 6.0 system, of course, this is true. However, there was a lot more subjectivity and leeway in the "exactitude" of how an element were performed for both the elites and the adults.

I don't think that you can compare the two systems in this way, because the scrutiny involved with the IJS is exacting within inches and degrees, which I pointed out above in the case of what happened with the pairs lifts in Chicago and with the example of the sit spin.

IMHO, I really believe that an adult skater who puts out a sit spin that is centered, has the right amount of rotations should be given credit for it even if he, or she, is not exactly parallel to the ice in the sit position. Yes, I know that they are given credit and that the deduction will show up on the GOE for a less then perfect position. However, that wasn't the case with the majority of pair lifts that were performed in Chicago; because they weren't "perfect" they didn't exist AT ALL--no credit AT ALL, even though they WERE executed, but less then perfect.

I suppose the question is why would a skater who performs and axel, but falls still be given base credit with a minus GOE and a deduction for the fall, but an overhead lift, which is less then the perfect standard, but where the woman is clearly overhead with the correct amount of rotations with no fall, is given absolutely NO credit at all?

[Sessy]

I bet adults who passed all the MIF tests through Senior skate fast! LOL!

Didn't vesperholly?

[jskater49]

About what you said above for the 6.0 system, of course, this is true. However, there was a lot more subjectivity and leeway in the "exactitude" of how an element were performed for both the elites and the adults.

I don't think that you can compare the two systems in this way, because the scrutiny involved with the IJS is exacting within inches and degrees, which I pointed out above in the case of what happened with the pairs lifts in Chicago and with the example of the sit spin.

IMHO, I really believe that an adult skater who puts out a sit spin that is centered, has the right amount of rotations should be given credit for it even if he, or she, is not exactly parallel to the ice in the sit position. Yes, I know that they are given credit and that the deduction will show up on the GOE for a less then perfect position. However, that wasn't the case with the majority of pair lifts that were performed in Chicago; because they weren't "perfect" they didn't exist AT ALL--no credit AT ALL, even though they WERE executed, but less then perfect.

I suppose the question is why would a skater who performs and axel, but falls still be given base credit with a minus GOE and a deduction for the fall, but an overhead lift, which is less then the perfect standard, but where the woman is clearly overhead with the correct amount of rotations with no fall, is given absolutely NO credit at all?

I agree with this. I think that is very discouraging not to get any credit and I know this is fighting words for some, but I do not believe adults should be judged by the same standards as elite skaters. If you want to be judged by the higher standards, I'm pretty sure there is no age limit at the senior level.

j

[NoVa Sk8r]

I prefer IJS and if my sitspin isn't low enough I will work to make it lower, if my toe loop is pre rotated I will learn to do it correctly. I don't think it is a terrible burden to ask for things to be done with good technique. If you are skating at a gold or masters level it doesn't seem unreasonable.:roll:ITA.

At least for this season, IJS has been modified such that certain moves that may have received zero credit will now just get called as level 1. To wit, in pairs: "If the minimum requirement of a lift is fulfilled, but the arms of the man are not fully extended, the lift becomes a Level 1." This is a welcome change from it not being counted at all. I believe similar language is in effect for spiral sequences in that it is easy to get at least a level 1.

And ISU *has* modified IJS for adults. In Oberstdorf, credit was given to the lower level pair teams who did elements that had not existed (to my knowledge) up to that point.
These include the throw waltz jump (1Wth, worth 1.0 points; the throw axel, 1ATh, is worth 2.0 points) and the forward pivot spiral (PiF1, worth 1.2; the back inside death spiral, BiDS1, is worth 2.8 points). USFSA should add these elements to their computers.

[techskater]

[QUOTE=lovepairs;356494]In your opinion, why do you think it is so hard let's say for an Adult (who never skated as a kid) to replicate even a JUNIOR or a SENIOR level skater?

QUOTE]

As I stated initially, it takes a very special skater to be a JUNIOR or SENIOR skater. There are skaters which are Juniors and Seniors in the adult ranks - people that have the same quality as a Junior/Senior test level skater or second tier (non-international) competitive Juniors and Seniors. Only about 1% of ALL skaters will ever achieve that captial JUNIOR and SENIOR. They are special - have that special something that very, very few have. It's an inate ability, not something that can be learned like a skill. I see one or two adult skaters who have this and once they achieve a high level of MIF and/or dance tests, it will come out.

In order to look like a Junior or Senior level skater, your limits need to be pushed every day. Skate faster - to the edge of your comfort zone where you feel like you're going to fall off the edge. Push the elements to be bigger and stronger that they were just moments ago. Every moment skate to the limit of your ability.

IJS is made to let you know exactly what is good and what is bad. If you don't like the Mrs. Dash you got, you need to work on what got you the Mrs. Dash and really understand the scoring system. It's about what you do WELL when you compete, not about pushing something that's not quite technically correct.

[looplover]

IMHO, I really believe that an adult skater who puts out a sit spin that is centered, has the right amount of rotations should be given credit for it even if he, or she, is not exactly parallel to the ice in the sit position. Yes, I know that they are given credit and that the deduction will show up on the GOE for a less then perfect position.

But...if it's not done correctly, it's not a sit spin. If it's not parallel to the ice it's not a sit spin, it's a squat spin. So people who are not doing a true sit (and most of the time that includes me) - they should expect the bar to be lowered for them? They can always join ISI for that and be pleased as punch. I passed FS4 with a squat spin in ISI. I wish I hadn't passed, frankly, because I wasn't doing a sit spin. Why should the bar be lowered for US Figure Skating?

We're not judged against elite skaters, we're judged against the rules. Only if we are at the elite skill level ourselves are we judged against elite skaters (does Adult Gold equal that? I wouldn't think so - I would think an adult who passed both senior moves and senior FS would be in the category of being judged against an elite skater).

I will never for the life of me understand why people think adults should be judged differently than kids unless we're talking triple jumps. It's not like we are all in one big level and pre-bronze skaters are judged against gold skaters. Then I could see it. We are split into testing levels that have certain standards. I don't know about you guys, but when the bar is set low (as it was in ISI) I skate much worse. It's like someone putting the idea in your head from the outset that you can't do something. Then you think you can't do it. When it comes to speed, barring some illness that prevents speed, there is no reason why adults can't keep up. It's fear-based. Fear based and body positioning.

[coskater64]

I agree with Nova and Techskater, IJS is a good system, it rewards what you do well. I would rather push myself to do something well than do it wrong, the feedback from IJS is very valuable. I was not aware, and others might not have been aware of those modifications to IJS, thanks for that info Nova.:D

With regards to looking like a Jr or Sr level skater, I push myself everyday, I work hard and in the end...it is what it is. If I have tried my best I am generally not disappointed. Skating perfection is difficult to achieve, why else would we pick this sport.8O :lol:

[pairman2]

Regarding the IJS, I don't have a problem so much with how it is used to compare elites vrs adults, I think the residual problems are are within the IJS itself, for example, love pairs illustration of jumps [splat-fest] still receiving at least some credit vrs lifts being totally non-existant if the lift has only a slight imperfection. That problem occaisionally extends itself into the elite ranks as well.

Back to the original topic. Those who remarked about the quickness of step are right on the mark. Some people have better 'quick twitch' muscle movement and others have better slow twitch. Bicyclist for example can utilize slow twitch for long steady output and basket ball players need quick twitch for that instantaneous pop that sends them into a jump. Skaters mostly need quick twitch dynamic.

If the push stroke has that nice crisp pop to it, without just skimming over the ice as some pointed out, then that leaves a split second or two longer to also show the resulting extention. This is what makes the unique dancer look to stroking that so few free skaters work on as an aestetic.

Off ice plyometrics [sp?] will help to improve fast twitch dynamic.

On a very practical note. Get on the same ice as skaters that you aspire to match speed with and if you can keep up, you are going 'fast', but as pointed out, 'fast' is not such a simple thing.

[lovepairs]

Okay, back to the topic. Phoenix is going fast enough, but it's this kind of crisp cadence that might be missing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NsrU_A9aX8&feature=related

[doubletoe]

But...if it's not done correctly, it's not a sit spin. If it's not parallel to the ice it's not a sit spin, it's a squat spin. So people who are not doing a true sit (and most of the time that includes me) - they should expect the bar to be lowered for them? They can always join ISI for that and be pleased as punch. I passed FS4 with a squat spin in ISI. I wish I hadn't passed, frankly, because I wasn't doing a sit spin. Why should the bar be lowered for US Figure Skating?

We're not judged against elite skaters, we're judged against the rules. Only if we are at the elite skill level ourselves are we judged against elite skaters (does Adult Gold equal that? I wouldn't think so - I would think an adult who passed both senior moves and senior FS would be in the category of being judged against an elite skater).

I will never for the life of me understand why people think adults should be judged differently than kids unless we're talking triple jumps. It's not like we are all in one big level and pre-bronze skaters are judged against gold skaters. Then I could see it. We are split into testing levels that have certain standards. I don't know about you guys, but when the bar is set low (as it was in ISI) I skate much worse. It's like someone putting the idea in your head from the outset that you can't do something. Then you think you can't do it. When it comes to speed, barring some illness that prevents speed, there is no reason why adults can't keep up. It's fear-based. Fear based and body positioning.

ITA. And, sorry for staying off of the original topic, but on the sitspin, the skating thigh does NOT need to be parallel to the ice for the position to count. According to the updated rules, the bottom of your butt just can't be higher than the top of your knee (bottom of butt level with top of knee is OK). Almost all of Sarah Meier's sitspins got credit this year, even though her skating thigh is never parallel to the ice. The forward sit position in the combination spin at 2:08 in this video is the lowest I saw her on a sitspin all season:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIu-Oen8Ehk

And since we aren't required to do a sitspin in competition (only on the Bronze FS test), it doesn't even have to be an issue. Rotations done in "intermediate positions" (like a high sitspin) still count toward the required spin rotations, and in a combination spin, you can even get credit for a difficult position--say, a twisted torso--done in an intermediate position, such as high sit position. That's what Sarah Meier does on the slightly high reverse sit position in the second half of the combination spin referenced above. She got a level 4 on this spin.

[icedancer2]

Case in point--I worked on the Blues (an edgy, flowy, swoopy dance) for 2 weeks, and passed it with points over.

OMG!!!! That is awesome!!

This Killian--we're going on 2 years. *sigh*

I feel your pain. Almost 15 years since I passed the Blues myself... Adult track...


And btw, I haven't passed the Paso yet, in fact I've just barely started to work on it. At which point the quickness/attack issue will rear its head again. :giveup:

I think you should work on the Paso and maybe the Quickstep - going into the higher dances will give you something fun and new to work on and also improve your skills and it will make the Killian, Starlight, etc., seem easier. You start to see the relationships between all of the dances.

I know for a fact that on this Killian I definitely rein it in because I'm afraid I'll hit the wall, afraid of the depth of edge required at the speed required (though that's getting better), and I definitely tend to hesitate going into the choctaw. As someone else said, this dance is so much harder than it looks!

It looks like you start to rein it in at the progressive which comes after the two 2-beat edges and before the choctaw - you are anticipating that choctaw I think and it makes your progressive kind of step-y and not stroked out. This is where it starts to look too "careful".

I'm sure you have done this, but I would practice the dance without the choctaw until I really felt like I was attacking those steps prior to the choctaw - this may actually set you up for the choctaw better in the long run.

I agree with what pairsman (I think) said about skating with people who do the dance the way you would like to do it - your body will start copying theirs - the little subtle things they do to get more attack on the strokes of the dance.

Good luck - I think you are making great progress - that is a hard dance especially for the waltzy-bluesy types (I myself am a Tango-type and these polka/marches are hell for me -- too fast!!! -eeek! 8O ).

[jskater49]

I agree with Nova and Techskater, IJS is a good system, it rewards what you do well. I would rather push myself to do something well than do it wrong, the feedback from IJS is very valuable. I was not aware, and others might not have been aware of those modifications to IJS, thanks for that info Nova.:D

With regards to looking like a Jr or Sr level skater, I push myself everyday, I work hard and in the end...it is what it is. If I have tried my best I am generally not disappointed. Skating perfection is difficult to achieve, why else would we pick this sport.8O :lol:

Well to really stir up the pot, I personally I think IJS is a TERRIBLE system for all skaters and is ruining the sport. It's turned programs into a collection of moves thrown in to garnder as many points as possible. I dont' enjoy watching it as much and I think it was a stupid solution put together by a speed skater to dishonest judging- which it really didn't solve.

j

[doubletoe]

Phoenix, nice flow! Thanks for posting the video!
The one thing that came to mind for increasing the look of power and speed would be going for a deeper ankle bend and more lean on the edges so that each lobe/edge is deeper (automatically giving you more push off each edge). I think in order to do that, you need to be willing to be more daring, but it looks like you've got the control to handle it! :)

[Mrs Redboots]

Well to really stir up the pot, I personally I think IJS is a TERRIBLE system for all skaters and is ruining the sport. It's turned programs into a collection of moves thrown in to garnder as many points as possible. I dont' enjoy watching it as much and I think it was a stupid solution put together by a speed skater to dishonest judging- which it really didn't solve.

j
I think that, at the higher levels, you may well have a point. But I do notice a significant improvement in quality at our sort of level - these days it is now blatantly obvious at adult competitions in this country (still marked under the "relative" system) whose programme has been choreographed with the aim of getting, or improving, an IJS score abroad, and whose hasn't.

So it's been good for the sport in one way, and less good in another! And as it's our level it's been good for.... I'm all for it!

[jskater49]

I think that, at the higher levels, you may well have a point. But I do notice a significant improvement in quality at our sort of level - these days it is now blatantly obvious at adult competitions in this country (still marked under the "relative" system) whose programme has been choreographed with the aim of getting, or improving, an IJS score abroad, and whose hasn't.

So it's been good for the sport in one way, and less good in another! And as it's our level it's been good for.... I'm all for it!

I haven't notice any improvement at the lower level - other than skaters don't even attempt jumps that they tend to cheat. I think it's been bad for the quality of spins - they are so busy trying to get into a ridiculis position or change edge that nobody can do a sustained fast, well centered scratch spin - spins could have been improved under the old system if they just would have REWARDED spins rather than just jumps. Same thing with spirals --there is more emphasis on flexibility than edge - I just don't see turning skating into gymnastics an improvement.

j

[Mrs Redboots]

I haven't notice any improvement at the lower level - other than skaters don't even attempt jumps that they tend to cheat. I think it's been bad for the quality of spins - they are so busy trying to get into a ridiculis position or change edge that nobody can do a sustained fast, well centered scratch spin - spins could have been improved under the old system if they just would have REWARDED spins rather than just jumps. Same thing with spirals --there is more emphasis on flexibility than edge - I just don't see turning skating into gymnastics an improvement.

j
Are the entry-level competitions judged under the IJS in the USA? I thought they were still relative, as they are here. In France, however, everything is IJS, and it does make a difference, even at Pre-Bronze.

[jskater49]

Are the entry-level competitions judged under the IJS in the USA? I thought they were still relative, as they are here. In France, however, everything is IJS, and it does make a difference, even at Pre-Bronze.

They are do IJS as low as juvenile at some comps here but even at lower levels they put programs together as though they were being judge IJS and I think judges are starting to think in terms of IJS even if it's the 6.0 system.

I also think IJS is going to be a financial disaster for smaller clubs trying to put on competitions.

j

[coskater64]

This conversation is not new. I sat through GC when this was a topic a few years back and I voted for IJS even though my regional group voted against it.

Skaters either skate and do things correctly or get penalized, you get feedback and you can compare scores and grow your skating score upward. This works for adults and children, elite and non-elite. Change is a difficult thing and there is always resistance to change. The ISU is going to keep IJS and therefore the US will keep it so its skaters will be scored under the same system.

It also works with a caller and and walkie talkies, sans the computers, that makes more work for the accountants but does cut some expenses of using IJS.

I like the system and most of the judges in my area are used to it, and they do tend to think more in IJS terms that 6.0.

Ms. Redboots, in the US we don't use IJS for events lower than gold. Few competitions offer IJS for adult skaters but you can find some. I will be very interested to see the artistic programs judged with just PCS scores at O'dorf.

[cecealias]

I believe this all goes back to how good your fundamentals are in skating. IF you develop good fundamentals, it should NOT be a problem to get good IJS. If you don't want to do the tedious task of learning good fundamentals and just "want to get by" then you're in for trouble

[Skittl1321]

(never mind)

[Summerkid710]

But...if it's not done correctly, it's not a sit spin. If it's not parallel to the ice it's not a sit spin, it's a squat spin. So people who are not doing a true sit (and most of the time that includes me) - they should expect the bar to be lowered for them? They can always join ISI for that and be pleased as punch. I passed FS4 with a squat spin in ISI. I wish I hadn't passed, frankly, because I wasn't doing a sit spin. Why should the bar be lowered for US Figure Skating?


When I test and judge in ISI, I follow the rulebook: your hip is not to be any higher than your knee for a passing sit spin. I fail squat spins regularly. I also fail skaters who do camel-squat spins in FS5. Recreational or not, you still have to be low in a sit spin.

On topic -- I skated as a kid and decided to take some moves tests starting with Intermediate at age 30 (grandfathered in based on my pervious tests). I passed it on my second try. Failed Novice on my first try and then had to put it on hold for a while. As adults, we tend to skate more carefully than most kids. We look like we're thinking too hard when we skate. We may even have speed and power but without that certain look of freedom and confidence, we look like adults.

The PSA Guide to Moves book has puts it out there really well for skating quality expectations that I believe can be carried through to all disciplines. Example: Junior Moves - "Demonstration of an accomplished performance, with sureness of presentation, a mature and consistent maintenance of speed through rhythmic movement, a clarity of body movement and a strong flow through use of knee and ankle."

[jskater49]

When I test and judge in ISI, I follow the rulebook: your hip is not to be any higher than your knee for a passing sit spin. I fail squat spins regularly. I also fail skaters who do camel-squat spins in FS5. Recreational or not, you still have to be low in a sit spin.

While I absolutely agree that a sit spin has to be exactly the way it should be to pass a test, it just seems to me, that when you have a competition, and someone tries to do a sitspin but doesn't get the right position or do enough revolutions should get more credit than someone who doesn't try one at all and someone who gets lower and more revolutions than someone else, but still not low enough, should get more credit. To level the playing field and say NOBODY gets credit, is to discourage people from even trying. That's all I'm saying.

j

[looplover]

As adults, we tend to skate more carefully than most kids. We look like we're thinking too hard when we skate. We may even have speed and power but without that certain look of freedom and confidence, we look like adults.


Hey, that's a great way to put it. I never thought about it like that and it makes a lot of sense.

(didn't mean to bash ISI by the way and I'm glad you judge to standard - I enjoyed it when I was in it, though I was eager to switch over).

[doubletoe]

Same thing with spirals --there is more emphasis on flexibility than edge - I just don't see turning skating into gymnastics an improvement.

Yes, there's a lot of emphasis on flexibility for anything above a level 2, but there's a lot more emphasis on edge than there was under 6.0. In the 6.0 days, even world class skaters would do spirals on a flat and hold each position for just a second. Now, unless the position is held for 3 seconds and executed on an actual edge, it won't count. Michelle Kwan's change edge spiral--which is now pretty much standard for any sequence above a level 1--got oohs and aahhs and excited comments like, "That's very difficult to do!" from Dick Button.

[phoenix]

Thanks very much to everyone who's replied w/ comments on my dance, and the ensuing discussion re. adult skating.

We started working more on the issue in my lesson today. 45 minutes worth of progressives in a circle later, I can do somewhat snappy progressives, w/ a decent extension and hold between each step, in time w/ the Killian music. But only if I do 2 progressives slow (2 beats per step), then 2 fast (one beat per step). When I get the extra beat, I can get the feel of how fast the transition has to be, and how the extension has to feel & can then (briefly) turn it into the faster steps needed in the dance. And it is a TOTALLY different way of skating than what I would normally do!

Moderately snappy progressives in a circle in one direction is a loooooong way from doing a snappy Killian, but I have to start somewhere! He's also given me some off-ice exercises to do to hopefully help me learn to move my legs faster.

I have another lesson tomorrow (!) because I feel I need extra supervision as I'm learning this new way of skating, so he can kill me tomorrow again. More circles, oh boy!

[dbny]

One of the exercises we did on roller skates when working on the Paso Doble was to do XF, XB in a circle to the music, one stroke per beat (for example: LFO, RFI-XF, LFO, RFI-XB etc.). It really did get your feet going!

[phoenix]

One of the exercises we did on roller skates when working on the Paso Doble was to do XF, XB in a circle to the music, one stroke per beat (for example: LFO, RFI-XF, LFO, RFI-XB etc.). It really did get your feet going!

That is also one of my exercises too!

[dbny]

That is also one of my exercises too!

Did you ever catch your toepick on it? On roller skates the hazard was locking wheels. I've tried it on ice, but not up to speed and the thought of catching a toepick on one of those XB's puts a damper on it. I have no real reason to do it now, so I haven't pushed myself.