New Coach Old Program

[littlekateskate]

When you change a coach (at LTS levels). Do you get to keep your program? How does that work?

[jskater49]

It really depends on the new coach, but the old coach does not "own" your program. My dd kept her old programs for a while when she changed coaches. At your dd's level it really shouldn't matter. Even coaches that want to make their own program are not likely to insist on a change in the middle of a competitive season.

After I moved I used the music my old coach had cut for me that I never really got a program to and I did ask her if she minded if I used it --since she is known to ahem "reuse" music and it was fine with her.

j

[Kim to the Max]

I feel that it depends on the relationship and the way things went down...

Often times though, each coach has their own style and their own way to choreograph and thoughts about music, etc., so the music that a skater has now may not necessarily work with the style of coaching.

When I changed coaches (coach #1 moved to Hawaii), I got new music to correspond with that change. Although, we have a girl at my rink right now who has changed coaches (to my coach) but still has the same music (however, that is mainly because it is the middle of the season and coach feels that the music she has is WAY too fast, so I have a feeling that that will change for next season), however, ALL of the choreography changed in that program when she changed coaches.

[Skittl1321]

If I changed coaches I wouldn't be comfortable keeping the same program without asking. My coach choreographs during my lesson time and does not charge a seperate fee for choreography- so I feel the program is more his than mine. If I paid for the choreography, I would feel as though it were mine, not his.

[jskater49]

If I changed coaches I wouldn't be comfortable keeping the same program without asking. My coach choreographs during my lesson time and does not charge a seperate fee for choreography- so I feel the program is more his than mine. If I paid for the choreography, I would feel as though it were mine, not his.

I totally disagree - you payed him and he spent time in choreography instead of learning new skills. You did pay for the choreography. If you pay for the time, why should pay more just because you are doing choreography instead of learning a jump or a spin?

Our changes have been because of moving, not bad feelings but even so, I do not believe a coach "owns" a program they've been paid to choreograph for a skater. If it gets changed, it's more because the new coach has a different style and vision, but not because of any rights the former coach has.

j

[littlekateskate]

I agree with pp. I was under the same feeling. Our coach choreographs during the lesson time which is being paid for. Which in my opinion means you paid to have it choreographed. You lost lesson time because it wasnt done in advance. Ans for SKittl1321 you did pay to have it choreographed since you paid for the time she was doing it. Now it may not have been a thousand dollars but it was paid for.

But, I asked the question just out of curiosity. At my DD level it wouldnt make a huge difference (only so many elements and so little time) but I just know others had asked questions about coach changes and this was something i related and thought might be helpful for others as well.

[Ice Dancer]

My coach recently told me it is frowned upon if you take your music and programme with you, it happened at our rink and she was disgusted that the new coach had no shame in using the old music. So I don't know if that is just my rink, or UK etiquette. Was something I had never really considered until she mentioned it.

[Virtualsk8r]

Our coach coreographs during the lesson time which is being paid for. Which in my opinion means you paid to have it choreographed. You lost lesson time because it wasnt done in advance.

Just curious...why do you consider doing choreography during a lesson as 'lost lesson time'? Learning choreography means learning new skills - and each time a skater gets a new program, the skill level intensifies and they are asked to do more with their abilities. In what way did you expect the coach to do the choreography 'in advance'? when they were not being paid for their time...

If you were to engage a 'professional' choreographer to do your child's program, you would be expected to rent private ice for quite a few hours plus pay the choreographer's fee in addition to the fee for music editing.....so by the time you are finished - that new program will cost you at least $1,000 for a low level program......and more than $10,000 for an elite skater!

Most skaters I know are excited to work on new choreography during their lesson because it is something new - and makes them work harder so that their friends can see the new program and music work on the ice!

As for who 'owns' the program - USFSA/ Skate Canada and ISU recognizes the choreographer's right as they must sign a waiver for its usage at their major events. But the skater basically purchases the choreography as a service and since it is the skater who is performing the choreography, as long as the integrity of the program remains (choreographers get really annoyed when 'perfection' is altered by a new coach! lol) the skater can take the program with them to whatever new coach they desire!

At the lower levels, since coach and choreographer are usually the same person - it has been my experience that skaters use their programs for the season or test and then the new coach will redo the choreography to the same music or find something else because skaters at the lower levels are constantly improving their skills and therefore need to update programs frequently to show off their new skills.

[littlekateskate]

I dont think its a waste of time. I guess i phrased that badly. I guess i should have said it was taken away from lesson time. In our case. The coach is out on the ice choreographing and going through it and thinking it out while our dd stands on the sides. As opposed to the coach working with something with my daughter. That is the only way i meant it.

I am sure with older skaters they probably get to help and try things out first. But our coach does the program a few times sees what works then shows it to our dd.

I would fully expect to pay for her time. But in this case i was just trying to point out to a pp that it was her time she had paid for and that she lost lesson time while the coach was listening to the music thinking the program out. Learning the new choreography isnt a waste.

[Debbie S]

I would fully expect to pay for her time. But in this case i was just trying to point out to a pp that it was her time she had paid for and that she lost lesson time while the coach was listening to the music thinking the program out. Hmmm, well, when I've had a program choreographed (I've only had 3 programs, so I guess my experience is a bit limited), my coach has listened to the music beforehand and has a general idea of where the elements are going to go, but when we're on the ice, the coach will frequently pause, try out a few transitions and steps herself, think for a minute, and then give me things to try to see if what she envisions will work. We'll go through stuff, then try sections with the music, and see if it looks good and/or fits with the music. Then things usually need to be changed a bit - it's a trial and error process. Unless it's a 1 minute compulsory moves program (and even if that sometimes), you can't expect it to come together instantly.

That being said, once you've paid the coach or choreographer for their time, the program is yours. You can skate the program for as long as you want with any number of coaches. Of course, a new coach may have different ideas and may want to tweak the program or change it entirely, for reasons that others have already stated.

When I changed coaches, I was in the process of learning a new program and had a piece of music picked out that had been edited. But I chose to start over fresh, b/c the program wasn't done anyway and there was a lag of time between coaches. I found another piece of music I liked and decided to just start from scratch. I may go back to the old music someday, but obviously the program will look different b/c 1) it will be choreographed by a different person, and 2) I'm a more advanced skater than I was then.

[twokidsskatemom]

I would say it belongs to the skater.
That said, we work with a well know choreographer and have for a few years.This is what she does for a living.She has nat level skaters, we are Im sure her lowest level.
She listens to the music beforehand. But she still thinks of things while my daughter waits.She does it and then my daughter does it. Then it gets changed again or the choreographer goes back on the ice and thinks. This process takes a several lessons, 60 minutes at a time.
Its how they all work.Even the best.Its not taking away from, its just a part of new programs.

[Mrs Redboots]

I, too, would say it belongs to the skater, but some coaches think differently, and I've known a coach decide to drop a pupil 2 days before a competition and confiscate his music (I think the coach had cut the music, so the skater hadn't a copy on their own computer), and the new coach and the skater had a serious rush to get something sorted out in time. They did, though!

[LW*]

I, too, would say it belongs to the skater, but some coaches think differently, and I've known a coach decide to drop a pupil 2 days before a competition and confiscate his music (I think the coach had cut the music, so the skater hadn't a copy on their own computer), and the new coach and the skater had a serious rush to get something sorted out in time. They did, though!

I think that's terrible! What could be so bad that they couldn't wait 2 days before dropping the skater and to go so far as taking their music away as well! Was that at your rink?

[slusher]

That happened also to a friend of mine. The coach dropped them with no warning. They were with a coach who didn't charge for music, they thought that was a nice perk, but did not realize that the reason there was no music charge was that the music belonged to the coach and was rented, is the best way I can describe it.

The parent thought she saved the day by managing to have a copy of the music, however the new coach would have no part of it because of repercussions from the old coach, and somehow, in a week, pulled it together with new music and a big rework of the choreography.

I made the new costume, the coach wouldn't even let them use the $400 dress that was made by the custom dressmaker since it was designed by the old coach. These people were my friends and in such a bind, I never did charge them.

[Skittl1321]

I made the new costume, the coach wouldn't even let them use the $400 dress that was made by the custom dressmaker since it was designed by the old coach. These people were my friends and in such a bind, I never did charge them.

NOW THAT IS INSANE. The music I understand, the choreography- sure. But the costume? Unless the coach paid for it, and was thus the owner, that's just crazy. That was really nice of you to help them out.

[slusher]

They were in shock and the dress became this loathsome symbol identified with the old coach. I had expected to see it show up in a dance test at some time, but it's disappeared from the face of the earth. I've never asked.