Coaches- tips and tricks on gaining power!

[BuggieMom]

My dd is a great little skater. She has good jumps, great spins, fantastic presentation, but it all pales next to her lack of speed and power.
This weekend, she took her Juv. moves test. We all thought she passed because she looked so good. But when her results came back, she had failed, and every judge said it was because of power. :frus:
Coach and I have begged, pleaded, threatened, cajoled, bribed, etc. to get this kid to skate with power. It will work for a while and there will be an improvement, but then soon, she is back to her same old speed. She can zoom around the rink when she is on a public and they are playing tag and such, but to get her to use power going into jumps and spins is like pulling teeth. I don't know if she is afraid of it or just has a comfort zone and wants to stay there...probably a mix of both. But I am looking at these test results as a good thing...maybe hearing it from three judges will finally light the fire under her to GET MOVING!
Anyway, I am looking for some tips to get her going. I am not convinced that just having her out there skating fast laps will translate into more power in her program and moves. What do you do to prod a slow skater in to gaining power and speed?

[jskater49]

Sorry, not a coach, just a skater and mom who has been involved in skating many years and seen this very scenario at about the pre-juv/juv level...

A good power class is more than just skating laps as fast as you can. A good power class teaches you to generate power from all kinds of skating, power pulls, cross rolls, power 3s, and all the Moves in the Field. To motivate her, if you can get her in a power class with kids her level so that the competitive side kicks in so that she will try to stay ahead, that helps a lot. Evenually it will effect all her skating. Also how old is she? Sometimes, the little ones just need to grow to show judges the power they are looking for.

j

[BuggieMom]

A good power class is more than just skating laps as fast as you can. A good power class teaches you to generate power from all kinds of skating, power pulls, cross rolls, power 3s, and all the Moves in the Field.
j

That is exactly how I feel. Unfortunately, the "power" classes we have here are more like races, not about how to get power from a stroke. We don't have any class like that here. How I wish we did!! That is way I am looking for ideas to incorporate into her daily skating.

She is 10, but she is the size of an 8yr old. She has good body control, and really, I don't see any reason why she CAN'T generate power. It seems to be more of a "won't" or "afraid-of-it" kind of thing. Honestly, I don't know if she has really been taught how...I just know that Coach has been on her to do it, so I assume she has shown her HOW to do it.

Sorry, not a coach, just a skater and mom who has been involved in skating many years

Moms are welcome to comment also...sometimes, we can add some valuable information...bring it on! :D

[techskater]

Not a mom or a coach, just a skater here, and an adult one at that, but, why not give her a goal? For example, coach should say you should finish your cross strokes in XX seconds or your power threes in XX seconds and use a stop watch. Praise her when the move is done correctly and within the alloted time. Same thing for jumps - you need to be down to the other end and taking off in 10 seconds (or 20 or whatever). Have coach give her a warm up pattern for all her jumps that has to be completed in a certain length of time and use a stop watch to track it.

I know my coach gave me "time based" goals for Intermediate MIF for the power stroking to back power threes and it helped immensely to generate enough power to finish the move and pass. She also gave me a 5 minute warm up pattern that HAS to be completed for all my jumps through the basic doubles.

Good luck. This is a hard habit to break.

[Isk8NYC]

Is it power or speed she's lacking?
There's a difference and it shows in how the skater looks on the ice. A bunch of fast, short strokes will get them from end to end just as fast as a few powerful strokes. The trick is to master the powerful strokes so that you can make every stroke count. Power builds speed more easily, but speed doesn't build power - if the basic control isn't there, doing something faster (or incorrectly) doesn't result in anything good.

Basically, power comes from the use of the blade on the ice. Stroking forward with wide steps won't generate power, but using the blade rocker for tight, clean, strong pushes will increase power. Power generators are using effective strokes, clean edges, weight shift/lean and body position control.

We often mention the "rip" of blade edges on the ice - that's a great power generator that often escapes people. It's not enough to just skate a clean edge - you have to be able to make your blade cut into the ice and propel you forward/backward/into a turn. I think the movements of the back crossover explain that - anyone can do a million cheesy back crossovers fast and build up some speed. It's the use of the BI edge pull, the draw across from inside the circle to the outside, finishing with a clean, strong underpush that defines a powerful back crossover that will always generate more speed.

These links might help a bit, as will the USFSA manual since it explains the basics of WHAT the judges are looking for:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/MIFSchoolManual.pdf
http://www.denverfsc.org/moves/

In your DD's case, the Juv Cross-strokes pattern notes might be enlightening.


Two of the rinks I've taught at have offered "Moves and Stroking" classes. It was different from a Power Stroking class because it wasn't dedicated to going fast - it was designed to teach the skaters how to improve their stroking and MITF performance, ie. how to generate power from every movement.

It's a little early, but some summer training camps offer this as part of their daily curriculum. It really "roots" better when the lessons being taught and practiced every day. (I saw that firsthand last summer, when my DD's went to the half-day camp for the first time.)

If your rink doesn't offer this, you could ask about a few private/semi-private lessons. Clear it with your current coach first, so s/he won't be offended. You could ask your local "Moves Nazi" coach, and perhaps share the cost with a skating friend or two. Don't make the group any bigger than three or you'll lose value since moves cover the ice and the coach has to be able to talk to each of the skaters individually. (Some skating schools will offer this as a group lesson if you ask, but again, the value depends on the group size.) Emphasize that you're looking for correct edges, increasing power, and sustaining momentum.

See if you can borrow a copy of the PSA MITF tapes - they emphasize (with on ice demonstrations) everything, including how to generate power. Even if you just go through the Juv tests, it might open up her eyes.

[Isk8NYC]

Just a last note about not using power going into spins and jumps - that's vital. The whole purpose behind spin windups and jump entries is to build speed that should be conserved. It's always a battle to reteach spin entries to skaters that insist on digging in with their toepicks until they grind to a near-halt before stepping (widely) forward into an out-of-control spin.

She needs to lose this habit and learn to conserve speed/momentum when entering the maneuvers. Maybe a physics lesson will help, as will taking it back to basic spins and jumps with the proper, controlled entrances.

She is young though, so don't come down too hard on her - she probably doesn't understand why she needs to change her skating style. How about videorecording a practice for her to watch on her own, so she can see the difference? (Just clear it with the rink - some don't allow recordings.)

[phoenix]

If no good power class is available, stroking/power lessons w/ an ice dance coach.

[BuggieMom]

It is definitely power she is lacking, and she knows the difference between a few powerful strokes and a thousand little strokes. I know she's been told that, at the very least by myself. In her FS program, her flying camel and her layback only have 1 crossover before going into them, and she knows that has to be a productive crossover, because she doesn't get any more. And she does that pretty well. But it's like she remembers to do this for those 2 particular places, but nowhere else. It is not ingrained into her. That has been sorta OK up until now, but she is looking at skating Pre-Juv soon, and baby crossovers and stroking won't cut it.
She did start taking dance just last month, I'll see if her dance coach can help her learn power, and take give her separate lessons in that area also.
She is young though, so don't come down too hard on her - she probably doesn't understand why she needs to change her skating style
Oh, I don't have to be hard on her. When she realized that the very thing that we've been on her for was what kept her from passing, no other words were necessary. That's why I think this Retry was a blessing in disguise!
Isk8NYC, that MIF school manual looks like a great resource. I'm going to bookmark that one!

[CanAmSk8ter]

If no good power class is available, stroking/power lessons w/ an ice dance coach.

Ditto. I'd also suggest she take some dance lessons if power is an issue, because a good dance coach is going to teach you how to get the most out of each push, and how to push. A Juv-level skater partnering the Dutch Waltz isn't going to need to be concerned with generating power; dance is more of a long-term solution. You're wise to be looking into some solutions, since obviously each MITF test is going to require more power than the previous one.

I've never figured out why some skaters seem to be able to generate power naturally while others need to be taught how. I have noticed that kids who are small for their age are often good at getting speed and skating fast, but struggle with the power aspect. I was one of them (ok, ok, I'm not a kid anymore, nor am I skating anymore, but if I were, I'd still fall into that group).

EDIT: You beat me by a few minutes. Glad to hear you have a dance coach who can work with her. I really think that will help.

[herniated]

If no good power class is available, stroking/power lessons w/ an ice dance coach.

Double Ditto.:lol: I'm an adult skater and started taking with an ice dance coach for the past 4-6months and can all ready see the difference in my power/speed/edge quality!

[teresa]

I'm only an adult skater. Learning how to make your strokes be effective takes practice and knowledge. A skater learns through practice and knowledge that you need to slow down and work effectively to gain power in skating. Less actually is more. As a skater I learned this information from my coach, lots of practice and observation of better skaters and coaches. I've always found that following behind my coach and copying her skillls has always helped me understand what I should be doing and feeling. It's the closest thing to being in their skates. Maybe your childs coach could have her follow and copy her. Might be worth a try.

teresa

[kayskate]

Ice Dance lessons will certainly help.

Another option is getting her a pair of rockered inline roller skates (picskates). She will have to really push to get moving on them. Take her to a roller rink and let her skate. She will have to push hard. her legs will be sore, but results on the ice will be immediate. IMO, picskates are not ideal for training ice skating skills such as jumps and spins b/c they are different enough to merit their own practice sessions. However, basics translate very well usually w increased speed and power on ice.

Kay

[BuggieMom]

Well, I am glad to hear that ice dance might help her in this area also. I really wanted her to take it more for the edge work and posture, and I have seen improvement in theses areas already.

She has wanted a pair of the PIC skates, but I really thought it was silly to spend that much money on something she might not use too much. I guess I'll have to rethink that idea! It makes sense to me that she'd have to push harder. This would also be a novel idea that she could get excited about.

Thanks for all the great help!

[sk8tmum]

What are her leg muscles like (if I can be so familiar ...). We found that building up "useful" muscles in off-ice training and in cycling and swimming gave them the extra muscle strength and endurance to really put power into the skating.

Also definitely agree on the stroking sessions, although we've not found that dance is that beneficial, frankly, but we're only finishing up Senior Bronze dances right now, and it's pretty much skate the pattern and that's it; but, we are spoilt with having primary coaches who spend a great deal of time focussing on power and speed anyways (including chasing them around and around power circles yelling "move it!!!!)):lol:

Other thought: skates - can she get a good knee bend in them? It's hard to get down in your knees and push (edges or otherwise) if you can't bend your skates.

[Query]

I'm not the fastest skater, but I love trying to go as fast as I can. That kind of practice helps a lot.

Here is what I have been able to figure out, with the help of other skaters and of coaches:

You skate faster if you push directly sideways, or even sideways and slightly forwards, like speed skaters, with the blade front slated slightly outwards. It's like tacking across the ice. But my ice dance coach says proper figure skating style is to push and lift 45 degrees back. I'm not sure, but maybe a freestyle skater can get away with more sideways than that.

The sideways push and lean are so important that it helps a lot to skate on as much of an edge as you can.

Some of us need more strength training to skate faster. I especially have trouble accelerating from a dead stop.

For speed, the weight training should be towards endurance, rather than peak strength. Lots of reps with lighter weights, and faster motions with momentum. The strength training coaches say that's all wrong, but they don't skate. Also aerobic endurance training - you have to keep moving fast.

Strength and endurance training don't have to be on the ice.

Another technique - start the stroke contacting the ice near the back of the blade, on an outside edge. Roll forwards through the stroke, rocking over into an inside edge, mid-stride. I get more power from the rock-over from outside to inside edge (as I push by straightening the legs a bit) than from pushing back. Current models have suggested runners (at least in shoes with raised heels) get over 60% of the propulsion energy from a similar rock-over. However, as with the sideways/forwards push idea, inefficiency isn't always "good" figure skating. I think judges love strokes that stay on one edge. Add in as many edge changes as you can, and take advantage of every legit edge change to give you power.

Exception: in crossovers, you want to stay on the edge that helps push you into the center of the circle you are skating round. E.g., on forwards crossovers around a counterclockwise circle, which means you curve to your left, use only your left edges - the inside edge of your left skate, the outside edge of your right skate, and stay balanced a bit into the circle.

As others mentioned, crossovers are the most powerful stroke in skating. Use them as much as you can, with a high stroke rate, and get all the power you can out of them.

Speaking of balance, always align your weight (along the line determined by gravity plus centrifugal force) through your skating leg. Also, your spine along the same line. You will actually go faster if you bend forwards at the waist, so your upper spine isn't aligned that way. (Bending like that isn't OK in ice dance, but I see a lot of freestylers do it.)

Again, leaning forwards when skating forwards, backwards when skating backwards, helps a lot. But again, going too far towards efficiency may get you low marks from the judges.

The knee bend thing: Notice that when your knees are bent, you can apply your muscle strength to push against the leg. You straighten your leg through the stroke, up to the point the skate lifts off the ice.

The fastest skater I have watched was a hockey skater. They got speed partly by putting in a lot of strokes (especially crossovers), and keeping two feet on the ice a lot, scissoring between them. Lousy figure skating style, but very efficient. Another thing we can't do because of judging standards is the speed skating trick of starting out from a dead stop by running on the ice (still pushing sideways a lot) until you get more power by skating.

Don't discard the idea that racing will help. I once tried to teach a group kayak lesson with a couple sisters who simply could not learn how to paddle efficiently. Like they tried to paddle with the little muscles of their arms instead of the big muscles of their torsos, and they moved stiffly and kept almost falling over. No amount of instruction or demonstration would help. I had to tow one for a while. But they were competitive athletes in other sports. My co-instructor came up with the idea of starting a race. Within half a minute or so of the start, all the inefficiency dropped away, and they moved ahead of everyone else.

Some people can't intellectually understand abstract instructions of how to move (like everything I just said), but let them compete, and they figure out for themselves how to move efficiency. Does that make any sense?

[BuggieMom]

What are her leg muscles like (if I can be so familiar ...).
Oh, she has buns (and quads) of steel! Her leg muscles are very developed, and we are working on developing the ones that don't get used as much.

Other thought: skates - can she get a good knee bend in them? It's hard to get down in your knees and push (edges or otherwise) if you can't bend your skates.

She has a much lower level boot than you would think a kid landing doubles would need. She is very small and light, so she is still in a Riedell Gold Medallion. This allows her to get a good amount of ankle and knee bend since they are not as stiff.

As I said before, I really don't see any reason why she would be unable to get power in her strokes. I think it has a lot to do with, as Isk8NYC said, she hasn't seen the need for it until now. She has won gold in her last 4 competitions in FS, so how would that tell you that you need to change how you skate?!? She has decent power in her program, because it is "choreographed" into it. But this moves test shook her up. NOW, finally, I think she sees the need for speed (power)!

We had a long talk, and she admitted, with all the success she has had, she didn't see the need to change until she saw the test results. I asked her to repeat to me all the ways she has been told to gain power, everything she could dredge up that she has ever been told. The knowledge is there. So first day back on the ice, I had her really focus on it. She was scared, I could see it, but I told her if she never tried, she would never get past it...so she tried. She had the most beautiful, fast, centered, high-rev spins I have ever seen her do! Her single jumps were huge! Biggest I have seen yet! She is still slightly tentative on her doubles, but I told her I was looking for progress right now, not perfection, and she did put more power into them, each time getting more confident. By the end of the day, she discovered that power is her friend, not a disaster in the making! She was excited by her discovery, and is more confident than ever that her doubles will become more consistant and less cheated the better she gets at it. Yesterday morning, she had one of the best days in the ice yet. She did a beautiful Beilman (sp?) with 4 full revs with her skate up (and she gets it up there, flexibility isn't a problem), and didn't fall out of it. Her Axel had better height and outflow (which has been another problem) and she did some fantastic 2sals with better outflow. She didn't land any 2toes or 2flips, but the attempts were higher and more fully rotated. I think she is making progress!

I am keeping my fingers crossed that this will finally sink in this time, and when she retests her moves in March, she will pass, or at least not fail because of power!

[Mrs Redboots]

Sounds to me like, now she knows this is something she can do, and it actually helps all her skating, she'll really work on it! What does her coach think of her progress so far or haven't they seen it?

[deannathegeek]

When I started figure skating, I already knew how to ice skate and had played hockey when I was younger. I had a lot of speed, but I learned it was vastly different than having actual power. Taking power skating classes helped a lot, and I incorporated things I learned there into my regular skating workout-power swizzles, power stroking, power 3-turns. If you or her coach could work with her a few minutes a day before her regular skating lesson on pushing off on her strokes a little harder or faster, then it'd be worth it. Don't hit her with it all at once, and after a while she'll actually like the extra power.

One thing to watch for, though-Claire wanted more power on her stroking, and had started using her toe pick to get that little extra push. She felt like she was getting more power because she could actually feel herself getting pushed along by this, but it was actually slowing her down. Don't let DD get into the habit of using her toe picks for extra oomph.

[hepcat]

Wow Buggiemom, it sounds like this experience has revitalized her. That's great news!

[BuggieMom]

What does her coach think of her progress so far or haven't they seen it?
I thought I'd wait to comment until she had another lesson last night, so I could see how it went.

OMG!8O 8O 8O

She is a different child! Coach is super pleased. She has been waiting for this for a long time, always knew what kind of skater she could be, and is now seeing it. Spins have always been her strong suit, but they have reached a new level. Coach had given her some goals to reach rotation-wise, and she reached one of them within one day. Her jumps, again, were the best I have seen them yet. Axels were big and pretty, confident landing and way improved outflow. 2sals had the most outflow I have seen out of her yet, and strong, confident landings. Nothing tentative there. 2toes went on vacation, she has always disliked them, and trying them with more power makes her like them even less! But her 2flip...she is right on the edge of consistency with those, and they just got 10 times better. Coach said she did one that was textbook perfect, but she double footed it on the landing. Moves looked SO much better, her power 3's had...POWER! Eight step is getting better, and by the time she retests, it will be fine.
She looks entirely different of the ice. Another mom told her "Wow, you are really looking good out there! Your power has improved so much!" Dd almost split her face she grinned so big!
Wow Buggiemom, it sounds like this experience has revitalized her. That's great news!
You ain't kiddin'! She was so pumped last night, she couldn't quit talking about it! I was so pumped, I almost burst I was so proud of her! Instead of taking the test failure and letting it defeat her, she has taken their comments to heart and used them to learn. She has discovered something about herself that only she could learn, no one could teach her. That test session was expensive! We had to go 3 hours away, hotel, gas, food, all that. But I'd do it again, and spend twice as much, to see this transformation!

Props to my little Buggie!:bow: :bow: :bow:

Thanks for all your ideas and suggestions. They helped a lot!

[Query]

Cancel everything I said before.

The coach can tell best what she is ready to learn, if she is worth her salt - which it sounds like she is.

Anyway, the student should be motivated to do what she wants and have fun doing it without being bombarded by inexpert advice from the peanut gallery.

BTW, I do hope you Moms out there aren't using the kids' real names. Remember some day your kids will find all this stuff somewhere in an Internet archive. Maybe their friends will tease them with it. If they make it big, everything emabarassing you say will be all over the newspapers. The Internet is not a private club.

[Mrs Redboots]

Just want to say thank you for this thread, as it motivated me to work on my power this morning. I still can't do much when I'm skating with real power, as I can't cope with turning at speed, but I did push into the Mohawk on my step sequence, and as a result was practically level with the Husband, which is a first!

[BuggieMom]

This weekend, she took her Juv. moves test. We all thought she passed because she looked so good. But when her results came back, she had failed, and every judge said it was because of power. :frus:


Today my dd retested her Juv moves...AND SHE PASSED!!!!!

Not just passed, but passed with bonus points from every judge FOR POWER!!!!

The improvement in her power was so noticeable that other skaters and parents in the hallway were commenting on it. Of the 4 who tested Juv moves, she was the tiniest, but she blew them all away in the power category.
I just had to brag...I am SO PROUD of her for the way she has pushed and the progress she has made. She'll probably have to tell me to quit saying it!

WAY TO GO LITTLE BUGGIE!!!!:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Mrs Redboots]

Well done her! That's a major step forward, and she has made massive progress in very little time.

[Kim to the Max]

Today my dd retested her Juv moves...AND SHE PASSED!!!!!

Not just passed, but passed with bonus points from every judge FOR POWER!!!!

The improvement in her power was so noticeable that other skaters and parents in the hallway were commenting on it. Of the 4 who tested Juv moves, she was the tiniest, but she blew them all away in the power category.
I just had to brag...I am SO PROUD of her for the way she has pushed and the progress she has made. She'll probably have to tell me to quit saying it!

WAY TO GO LITTLE BUGGIE!!!!:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

That is quite the accomplishment! Now it's on to intermediate!! :)