So confused about the toe-loop jump

[abbi_1990]

Hi,

I started a new jump on thursday which my coach called the 'toe-loop'

i have been looking at video's of people doing toeloops on youtube and now im confused.

this is the way i have been taught to do it:

1)RFI 3 turn keeping the left leg behind you
2)place the toepick of the left foot into the ice (behind the right foot)
3)turn 180degrees on the ice so you are now facing forwards
4)jump off the left toepick up into the air and rotate 180 degrees in the air
5)land backwards on the right leg

so i am taking off forwards and landing backwards with 180 degrees rotation in the air.

is this correct? because in other poeples videos it looks like they dont do step 3, and they seem to rotate 360 degrees in the air.

[Skittl1321]

It sounds to me what you are doing is a "toe-waltz". Your coach might have reasons for teaching it to you this way, but you shouldn't have 180 degrees of prerotation.

However, as my coach has pointed out- all single jumps have SOME prerotation- you'll never have 360 degrees in the air, but once you take off facing forward, it's a cheat.

[abbi_1990]

oh :(

do you know why it might be taught that way?

[Skittl1321]

No idea. Why not wait awhile and see if any of the coaches on board have anything to say. If no one else chimes in- just ask your coach why you are learning so much prerotation.

[abbi_1990]

i wont see my coach for 2 weeks now because i am going on holiday

[Sessy]

The reason the coach probably has for teaching it pre-rotated is to get people to jump at all and not be scared like ours did, but that's a naaaaasty habit to kick later on... Very, very nasty - I know cuz I was taught the same way and now I keep pre-rotating it.

[abbi_1990]

so should i practice it without the prerotation?

anythink i should watch out for?

[Skittl1321]

I would practice it the way your coach tells you, not the way the people on the internet tell you.

HOWEVER- I would bring up with your coach that your "research" (or you could just say people on the internet) conficts with this approach, and ask for an explanation of why you are doing it that way, and if you should do it the other way instead.

[FlyAndCrash]

It's only a toe-waltz if the free foot (non-picking foot) is facing forwards when the whole body finally leaving the ice. This usually happens if the foot is picked up too soon (which is usually before passing the picking foot). I think your coach is trying to make sure you don't "force" the jump at the wrong time and to try and get a feel for the timing. As you get better, you will naturally jump without thinking about exatly where your feet are in relation to the pre-rotation of the jump.

[abbi_1990]

The way im doing it the free foot is facing forward when the whole body finally leaves the ice because im doing a kind of 2 foot turn or pivot from backwards to forwards before jumping forwards off the toepick of my left foot turning 180 in the air and landing on my right foot going backwards.

thanks for that explanation FlyAndCrash, it makes sense to me now

ill keep practicing it they way i was taught then and see what coach says when i get back from my holiday

thanks for your help everyone :)

[doubletoe]

Yes, hopefully, your coach is just easing you into the toeloop by having you do a version of it that has a forward takeoff so it's more like a waltz jump. Just be aware that once you are able to do it this way, you need to start learning the correct takeoff, which is with the foot and body remaining backwards. I pre-rotated on the picking toe for years and was even landing double toeloops pretty consistently before I found out that they would never get credit in competition because of the pre-rotation. I am now having to re-learn the single and can't even touch the double anymore except on the harness, since the correct takeoff feels so awkward to me.

[ibreakhearts66]

Yes, hopefully, your coach is just easing you into the toeloop by having you do a version of it that has a forward takeoff so it's more like a waltz jump. Just be aware that once you are able to do it this way, you need to start learning the correct takeoff, which is with the foot and body remaining backwards. I pre-rotated on the picking toe for years and was even landing double toeloops pretty consistently before I found out that they would never get credit in competition because of the pre-rotation. I am now having to re-learn the single and can't even touch the double anymore except on the harness, since the correct takeoff feels so awkward to me.

don't despair! i learned the double toe as a toe-axel too, but i've been able to kick the habit. i now have a consistent double toe, and have been told by several different coaches (as in not my coach, just random ones) that i have a beautiful double toe!

[doubletoe]

don't despair! i learned the double toe as a toe-axel too, but i've been able to kick the habit. i now have a consistent double toe, and have been told by several different coaches (as in not my coach, just random ones) that i have a beautiful double toe!

Awesome! Any tips? I can take off correctly on a single, but find it so awkward to get into rotational position for the double.

[lov2sk8]

Check out your take off edge on the ice if it stays on an outside edge you are doing it correct. If you see a 3 turn at the end then it is a toe axel.

[liz_on_ice]

It's only a toe-waltz if the free foot (non-picking foot) is facing forwards when the whole body finally leaving the ice. This usually happens if the foot is picked up too soon (which is usually before passing the picking foot). I think your coach is trying to make sure you don't "force" the jump at the wrong time and to try and get a feel for the timing. As you get better, you will naturally jump without thinking about exatly where your feet are in relation to the pre-rotation of the jump.

passing the picking foot? 8O
nobody told me that.
Anyone else doing it this way? Survey says...

wondering when I can get to the ice to try this out...

[mdvask8r]

ooops, nevermind . . .

[vesperholly]

Check out your take off edge on the ice if it stays on an outside edge you are doing it correct. If you see a 3 turn at the end then it is a toe axel.
Mostly, toe axels take off from a BO edge, but then rotate forward ON the toe pick. So looking at the tracing might not always solve the issue.

I'm guessing it's your coach trying to ease you into the jump, or break it down so you can get the idea faster. Bring up your concerns about doing a toe waltz jump and see what she has to say.

[Mrs Redboots]

Practice it the way you have been taught. My coach was saying it's very silly - you spend ages teaching people not to pre-rotate their toe loop (also known as cherry flip, here in the UK), and then when they start doing doubles, they have to pre-rotate.

As with everything in skating, as soon as you can do it half-decently this way, your coach will start to make it harder!

[doubletoe]

My coach was saying it's very silly - you spend ages teaching people not to pre-rotate their toe loop (also known as cherry flip, here in the UK), and then when they start doing doubles, they have to pre-rotate.

Unfortunately, about 20 of us adults who pre-rotated our single and double toeloops at U.S. Adult Nationals last year can tell you just the opposite was true. Many of our double toeloops were pre-rotated and got downgraded from a value of 1.3 points to 0.4 points, then got another -0.1 or more from negative GOE to end up worth just 0.3, which is less than a single toeloop. My single toeloop got downgraded from 0.4 points to 0 points because of pre-rotation. I'm not saying it's wrong to learn the toeloop with pre-rotation as a stepping stone, but it is the one jump for which the ISU has clear downgrades for pre-rotation.

As for ice marks, you can tell if you are pre-rotating on the toe by looking at your pick mark. If there's just a dot, you should be fine. If there's a deep line, you may have really pre-rotated a full 180 degrees. A check mark is OK, but only if the angle is 90 degrees or less, so that you left the ice with the toe pointing to 2:00 or 3:00, not 4:00 (anything past 1/4 turn is considered a forward takeoff).

[ibreakhearts66]

Awesome! Any tips? I can take off correctly on a single, but find it so awkward to get into rotational position for the double.

i actually posted a double toe thread (http://skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=25227) a while ago. i did it because i know how hard it is to break the habit of a toe-axel, and i didnt want other people to go through it! i actually use one of your videos as an example of a toe axel :oops: :oops: sorry sorry sorry. it was just the only one i could find that was good quality.

passing the picking foot?
nobody told me that.
Anyone else doing it this way? Survey says...

if you are doing a toe-loop (or double or triple or whatever toe) with perfect technique, then yes, you do pass the picking foot with your right foot (for a CCW jumper) as you jump through. it is very hard to describe and is much easier demonstrated, but in the double toe thread you can see some double toes with a good "pass trough"

[doubletoe]

i actually posted a double toe thread (http://skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=25227) a while ago. i did it because i know how hard it is to break the habit of a toe-axel, and i didnt want other people to go through it! i actually use one of your videos as an example of a toe axel :oops: :oops: sorry sorry sorry. it was just the only one i could find that was good quality.



if you are doing a toe-loop (or double or triple or whatever toe) with perfect technique, then yes, you do pass the picking foot with your right foot (for a CCW jumper) as you jump through. it is very hard to describe and is much easier demonstrated, but in the double toe thread you can see some double toes with a good "pass trough"

That's okay, I think my toe axel video is a good teaching tool because it looks deceptively like a double toeloop until you focus on the picking foot, which is exactly the point. ;) On the single toe, I can do the technique where you draw the skating foot back on the RBO edge until it almost passes the picking foot. The problem is that in order for the right foot to be on an outside edge as it leaves the ice, the right hip needs to stay open, not turned in. But in order to get backwards over the right hip in the air, it needs to be turned in. That transition is where I run into trouble. I can't seem to get backward over the right hip after takeoff because that hip is too turned out. Does that make sense?

[Skate@Delaware]

I don't think I read that particular thread; My marks on the ice look like the toe-axel. We were told that marks of the 2nd one were not right....


now I'm thoroughly confused and frustrated (more so cause I'm not allowed to jump).

So, which one will be the right one for best technique leading to doubles?

[tidesong]

I can tell how the really obvious toe axels look like. But I still can't tell the close ones. I was so concerned about mine that I started having troubles bringing my body through. So well I may have a borderline one but no one has been downgraded my single toe loops. And I'm not going to worry about that and just do the double first since I don't really have any other reference points. Coach thinks I'm ok on that, so I'm not going to sweat it. We'll have to see if/when I start attempting the doubles in competition.

I think this is a very interested reference video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3lT3dQoU10

Since she does so many double toe loops in a row. It is obvious that at the end she starts underrotating it on the landing. Can someone more experienced here tell me if she starts prerotating at any point in time too? It would be interesting to know.

[winziped]

1)... 3 turn ...


i know about roller skating but is too vaild for ice skating my knowledge ,LOL

I assume that are you saying that are 3 turns the performance of the toe loop. my dear is that optional because can be :

double toe loop :2 turns
triple toe loop :3 turns
single toe loop :1 turn

i hope that can help to you that , the said for you is right. you start RFO and land at RFO

[tidesong]

Umm sorry for ice skating, the three turn is the move where you turn from an inside edge to an outside edge, or outside edge to an inside edge following the direction of travel. Its not the rotation in the air... she just refers to the setup of the jump. I should hope that is not confusing, its just a three turn before the pick and jump.

[dbny]

i know about roller skating but is too vaild for ice skating my knowledge ,LOL

I assume that are you saying that are 3 turns the performance of the toe loop. my dear is that optional because can be :

double toe loop :2 turns
triple toe loop :3 turns
single toe loop :1 turn

i hope that can help to you that , the said for you is right. you start RFO and land at RFO

this is the way i have been taught to do it:

1)RFI 3 turn keeping the left leg behind you


"RFI" is an abbreviation for Right Forward Inside. As tidesong said, this is simply a three-turn (one foot change of direction from one edge to opposite edge rotating into the entry edge) to set up the jump.

[doubletoe]

I think this is a very interested reference video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3lT3dQoU10

Since she does so many double toe loops in a row. It is obvious that at the end she starts underrotating it on the landing. Can someone more experienced here tell me if she starts prerotating at any point in time too? It would be interesting to know.

Damn. And I just want to do ONE. . .
I don't think she prerotated on any of them, and I think it's because of her picking technique. It looks like she picks backward but with the pick at a bit of a diagonal and pops herself straight up off the pick as the feet come together and cross. It looks like the skating foot crosses in front of the picking foot on takeoff but then she rotates the right hip and leg so that the picking foot ends up crossed in front of the skating (landing) foot. Hmm . . . !

[ibreakhearts66]

Damn. And I just want to do ONE. . .
I don't think she prerotated on any of them, and I think it's because of her picking technique. It looks like she picks backward but with the pick at a bit of a diagonal and pops herself straight up off the pick as the feet come together and cross. It looks like the skating foot crosses in front of the picking foot on takeoff but then she rotates the right hip and leg so that the picking foot ends up crossed in front of the skating (landing) foot. Hmm . . . !

that is actually a perfect analysis of how a double toe should work. she draws the skating foot across the picking foot, then takes off like an axel. even a true double toe has the axel motion in it, but the skating foot has to draw up to the picking foot before taking off. in a toe axel (or toe waltz), it is like the picking foot acts like the LFO edge of an axel take off, only for a much briefer time.

[momsk8er]

ok my coach has totally thrown off the timing of my toe loop by telling me to pick, wait and pull back til feet are crossed, then jump. seems completely impossible to me, especially since I'm so slow by the time my feet are crossed that all I can do is a little hop. I know I was kinda toe-waltzing this jump, but now I can't do it at all, except at a crawl. any tips?????

[jskater49]

ok my coach has totally thrown off the timing of my toe loop by telling me to pick, wait and pull back til feet are crossed, then jump. seems completely impossible to me, especially since I'm so slow by the time my feet are crossed that all I can do is a little hop. I know I was kinda toe-waltzing this jump, but now I can't do it at all, except at a crawl. any tips?????

Can you do back pivots? Because the position is kind of the same. Coach had me work on back pivots because I was feeling the same way - like what she wanted was impossible.

J - who still can't really do a back pivot or a toe loop but knows what her coach wants anyway.

[looplover]

Can you do back pivots? Because the position is kind of the same. Coach had me work on back pivots because I was feeling the same way - like what she wanted was impossible.

J - who still can't really do a back pivot or a toe loop but knows what her coach wants anyway.

I'm having the same problem. I think my coach wanted to throw stuff at me after my warmup for the bronze test because I wasn't doing these correctly (she insisted I have in the past but it must have been a fluke) (I passed the test but I wonder about the toe loop)

I've never been able to do a back pivot 8O

But this correct position does remind me a little of a loop so THAT'S why they call it a toe loop, lol! (yeesh)

[GordonSk8erBoi]

Can you do back pivots? Because the position is kind of the same. Coach had me work on back pivots because I was feeling the same way - like what she wanted was impossible.

J - who still can't really do a back pivot or a toe loop but knows what her coach wants anyway.


Hmm, you mean a BO pivot? I noticed this the other week when I was working on them, that it's similar to the position I was shown for the toe loop (which I still can't do).

[doubletoe]

Can you do back pivots? Because the position is kind of the same. Coach had me work on back pivots because I was feeling the same way - like what she wanted was impossible.

J - who still can't really do a back pivot or a toe loop but knows what her coach wants anyway.

Another thing that gets the takeoff right is doing mazurkas (the real ones, not the side toe tap that sometimes gets called a mazurka).

[momsk8er]

What's the difference between a "real" mazurka and the side toe tap kind?

[techskater]

A real mazurka picks like a pivot and scissors the feet in the air as it turns forward versus the side toe hop.

I found working on single toe loops on the line fixed my double toe take offs so they pivot and go up and over to the landing side. I also found that working on different entries of Axels and double Sals have helped with the timing.

[vesperholly]

What's the difference between a "real" mazurka and the side toe tap kind?
Your feet cross in the air, like this:

http://www.bu.edu/bridge/archive/1998/12-04/photos/sports1.jpeg