Scratch spin entry?

[Skittl1321]

How do you do the wind up for your scratch spin? Mine is getting a lot better, but I'm really questioning if I'm doing it right.

My coach has me do the wind up- and then step back into the wind up. If it is "perfect" he says I should be almost exactly on the line I traced on the back edge when I trace my forward edge. BUT- when I watch elite skaters- they all step the other way with their inside edge- away from the line of their wind up.

Is this a matter of preference? Or is there a "right" way, or a "beginner" way? Or is a matter of when you're good enough the other way works too?

[Isk8NYC]

I teach it the same way as your coach - go back the way you came or step into the center of the circle you just traced with the BI edge.

Whenever I have a student who is traveling in their spins, it's because they step forward by turning around and continuing on the same line.
Very difficult to hook a spin that way.

ETA: This is a great article on spins.
http://www.womenssportsnet.com/EditModule.aspx?tabid=56&mid=418&def=News+Article+View&ItemId=15445

[doubletoe]

Think of making a smaller half circle inside the larger circle you just made with your windup edge.

[Skate@Delaware]

"go back the way you came" is the way my coach teaches...and when I do it right I'm dead on (unless I screwed something else up) :oops: and she also likes me to have a longer entrance edge once I step into it before I bring my free leg forward.

[quarkiki2]

I always think c within a C (well, backwards c within a C as I'm skating CCW).

Although, I rarely do it that way, LOL! I hear a rip on the RBI edge and freak out, then two foot the choctaw, then tap my free foot as I hook the spin. It sucks :(

[Sessy]

I gave up on going at it from crossovers all together, I do an inside 3-turn followed by an outside one right into the spin.

[Skittl1321]

Well it's good to hear that the way I'm trying (and being told) to do it is correct. I'll continue to "go back the way i came"

But I've yet to find an example of an elite skater doing it that way. This has been giving me so much trouble that I watched specifically for it at nationals, and have been searching youtube. There is a "how to scratch spin" video with Nancy Kerrigan (pretty much useless- it just says pull your arms in to go faster- it's for fans, not skaters) and as far as I can see, she steps the other way- in a how to video :giveup:

I'll keep going back the way I came- someday I'll get it.

[Skittl1321]

I gave up on going at it from crossovers all together, I do an inside 3-turn followed by an outside one right into the spin.

I did this in my first show program. I also did a "hockey glide" (don't know the right name) which spiraled into the center to allow me to spin. And consecutive outside 3 turns into the spin.

But coach says now I have to do crossovers :(


Actually said coach isn't saying anything until the end of February- I miss skating. Stupid knee.

[Mrs Redboots]

I gave up on going at it from crossovers all together, I do an inside 3-turn followed by an outside one right into the spin.That's my favourite spin entry, too. Coach2 suggested Husband tried it that way, in a vain attempt to improve his posture in the spin - this was not a good idea, as he found it way too scary!

[doubletoe]

Well it's good to hear that the way I'm trying (and being told) to do it is correct. I'll continue to "go back the way i came"

But I've yet to find an example of an elite skater doing it that way. This has been giving me so much trouble that I watched specifically for it at nationals, and have been searching youtube. There is a "how to scratch spin" video with Nancy Kerrigan (pretty much useless- it just says pull your arms in to go faster- it's for fans, not skaters) and as far as I can see, she steps the other way- in a how to video :giveup:

I'll keep going back the way I came- someday I'll get it.

The elite skaters are going a lot faster, which makes everything look different. Even though they put the spinning foot down generally facing the direction they came from, they push off onto such a deep edge and they have such speed that the edge curves around very quickly and you probably don't even realize that they pushed out with the foot facing that direction. And remember, you are creating a c within a C, so you don't push exactly back toward the direction you came from, but slightly to the inside of it. If 12:00 is the edge you came in on, then you will place the spinning foot down facing about 10:00 (assuming LFO entrance edge). You will push off onto it and make a smaller circle so that you are quickly facing 8:00, then 6:00 as you ride your entrance edge.

Or you can try it from a RFI 3-turn setup, where you basically continue on the same curve but make the curve tighter on the entrance edge than the windup edge (a c following a C).

[Skittl1321]

That makes a lot of sense! Thanks!

[Isk8NYC]

But I've yet to find an example of an elite skater doing it that way. Try checking out icenetwork videos for Juvenile - Novice level skaters. They would be doing the "more correct" version that you're trying to achieve.

[Skate@Delaware]

Try checking out icenetwork videos for Juvenile - Novice level skaters. They would be doing the "more correct" version that you're trying to achieve.
This is a really useful learning tool because you can pause and repeat segments of the video (assuming you are watching someone doing a move correctly).

[frbskate63]

But I've yet to find an example of an elite skater doing it that way. This has been giving me so much trouble that I watched specifically for it at nationals, and have been searching youtube.
The main reason you won't see much of it from the elite skaters is because all their spins start as a backspin these days, that being one of the things that increases the level under IJS. Gets very boring after the 20th skater, though...

Fiona

[Skittl1321]

The main reason you won't see much of it from the elite skaters is because all their spins start as a backspin these days, that being one of the things that increases the level under IJS. Gets very boring after the 20th skater, though...

Fiona

No, this wasn't really the issue. I was only looking at forward spins starting from crossovers- it just seemed as though each of those stepped out. Spins started any other way I didn't consider.

The description of incredible speed combined with a super deep edge is the best explanation for why it doesn't look like senior level skaters skate back the way they came.

[Casey]

For some crazy reason, I get the best spins from a right outside edge into outside 3-turn...

[tidesong]

I find it much easier from right 3-turn step into left forward outside edge to spin. Its faster to go into during a program and also means you can do a spin right after landing a jump.

However I have tried the back cross over way. I have heard of having to go back the way I came, but eventually all my spins from a back cross end up me stepping out and not the way I came. But I'm used to centering the spin on that left outside edge alone so the step before doesn't seem to matter? I don't know... its confusing for me :P (of course mind you that I'm not the best person at centering spins... so I'm still trying to find out what works)

[SkatingOnClouds]

I gave up on going at it from crossovers all together, I do an inside 3-turn followed by an outside one right into the spin.

Yeah me too, though my coach still tries to get me to do it from crossovers.
I skate at a tiny rink - 1/4 size. Doing any sort of crossover wind-up makes it really hard to practise spins when it's busy. Using the inside 3-turn entry I get to spend more time practising spins rather than going around in back crossover circles trying to find ice to try the spin.

20+ years ago I was also taught to step back the way I came. For some reason I really struggled with this, and my coach told me to try stepping the other way. It made an s-shape on the ice, and worked better for me once I got used to it.

Personally I wonder if it matters that much what entry you use. I think that having different entries might mix things up a little in a program, but what works for you, works for you.

[Sessy]

Mine is the same reason basically. We do have an olympic size rink but our rink doesn't do patch, so it's public sessions only. However the 3-turn approach between people really gave me the control I needed to center a spin even after a bad entry, as it's very hard to get a good entry on a crowded session.

I did the scratches from crossovers today again, holding my skating guards in my right hand (it seems to center my spins, I think that's because I don't forget to bring my right arm across with them). What I discovered was that if I get on a shallow edge from crossovers, I step OUT of the circle, and then the spin's uncentered. If I get on a DEEEEEP edge from crossovers, drop my left hip under my right hip, then I step out INTO the circle and I do a centered one.
I used to step out of the circle (and I still do for my camel) but then you have to REALLY step out of it. It's that V-shape step out that's dangerous as far as going travelling is concerned.

Not sure if this helps anybody else but I hope it does.

[FlyAndCrash]

I think it has more to do with your body alignment (hips and shoulders) than it does with the entry. By stepping back the way you came, the skating hip stays closed and the non-stepping side is not left totally behind, pulling the body off balence and the hips open. When doing it from 3-turns, the body stays more closed because there is no change of circle (as there is when pushing out of the circle instead of back the same way), almost like the entrance to a waltz or axel jump.

[Skate@Delaware]

I think it has more to do with your body alignment (hips and shoulders) than it does with the entry. By stepping back the way you came, the skating hip stays closed and the non-stepping side is not left totally behind, pulling the body off balence and the hips open. When doing it from 3-turns, the body stays more closed because there is no change of circle (as there is when pushing out of the circle instead of back the same way), almost like the entrance to a waltz or axel jump.
Yes, I think you are right...when my spins started crapping out my coach had be go back to square one (or further back)

-3 turn from the line with NO ARMS INVOLVED
-hold the free leg behind for a loooooong time
-etc, etc, etc

I keep raising my right hip when I bring my free leg around and it throws me off terribly. However, when I concentrate really hard on keeping my free leg back a long time and pushing it down (along with not hunching my shoulders) it works much better.

tidesong-if you put your feet really close together before you step forward (after your back x-overs) it is easier to "go back the way you came"