Can you report sandbagging?

[littlekateskate]

Hey guys..

I was just curious about this. I just know of a girl at our rink who i was shocked to watch her practice her routine for upcoming competition and i couldnt believe the elements in her routine! She is skating 4 levels behind what she is actually in! And it really shows. The worst part is to join the skating club here you have to be those four levels ahead that she is in and she is in the club!

If it is possible who can it be reported to? Do you just inform the skating director who you would think would have to know. I dont really care if she is disqualified but. The Coach I would think should have to have a talking to or something. Its not like she is sandbagging oh one level its FOUR! :)

[peanutskates]

is it possible she was practicing that routine for her level? doesn't the upcoming competetion have different levels/categories?

[Schmeck]

I'm assuming your levels referred to are basic skills levels...

The competition application states how it is decided what level you skate at - I've seen it state that it can be one level above, or at that level, or one level lower than you have passed. If this skater is competing down four levels, then the competition chair should be notified.

If you are talking about a skater who is truly 'sandbagging', as in, needs to get tested because she is so above the level she is skating at, there's nothing to be done. You can't force someone to test up.

[Clarice]

But at Basic Skills levels, you're not allowed to compete with elements from higher levels. If the skater includes things that many levels above the one she's entered at, she'll be disqualified anyway. And if it's a regular competitive level, there's no problem - the skater is entitled to compete at her tested level, and is allowed to do harder elements if she is able to do them.

Assuming that we're talking about Pre-Pre or higher, I wonder whether you're confused about what elements are on the test for the level versus what's actually done in competition. There's quite a gap. Pre-Pre skaters commonly compete with axels, for instance, unless it's a restricted event, but the axel doesn't appear on a test until the Juvenile level. Remember that the hardest jump required on the Senior test is a double lutz, although obviously competitive Senior skaters do far more than that. The competitive stream encourages skaters to try harder elements, because its ultimate goal is to identify the National Champions. The tests have, so far, been left the way they are so that all skaters can use them as attainable goals. As it is, very few skaters pass the Senior Free Skating Test - I'm told only about 1% of those who start - so there's been no reason to make the tests harder. The qualifying competitions do a good job of identifying the "best of the best".

The new Competitive Test Track will change this. Skaters who choose to compete in these events will be limited to the elements on the test for their level - sort of an extension of how Basic Skills competitions work.

[littlekateskate]

Its ISI and the elements are soo basic you couldnt get them confused lol.

That is how i noticed she was doing that even because of the basic requirements for that program. I was shocked to see her doing it. Considering she is does group lessons and privates and in groups she is over four levels ahead. Which i know that doesnt mean she actually passed them. But this is pretty far ahead to not be testing and competing with all the "little" ones.

I am just glad my daughter isnt in her group lol. I feel bad to the other kids who are doing this the fair way and are going to have to compete against her.

[Logan3]

my humble opinion is to concentrate on your daughter's skating and progress and do not waste your time looking what other skaters are doing. I don not want to be harsh or patronizing but if you are entering the world of competitive figure skating you will witness a lot of things that initially do not make sense. Some times people do sandbag, other times you just do not know the whole story behind. If you get too concerned with "fairness" etc you are going to be miserable in no time! It is very common for girls to compete lower levels. Other's compete to challenge themselves and others compete to secure the gold.

[techskater]

I hate to be totally rude here, but Mind Your Own Business as it's not your skater, you don't know the whole story/situation and it's not your business to know because you already would know if it was.

I see skating parents all the time start with the "sandbagging" whispering or other rumor mongering. It makes the rink an unpleasant place to be for the skaters whose parents aren't part of the "in crowd" and their parents. Your best bet to help make the rink a better place is to keep your thoughts to yourself if they are unflattering or rumors. That will enable you to have a more pleasant experience at the rink and will open more doors for your daughter. Parents who rumor monger or who are thought to be difficult are the ones whose skaters the good coaches AVOID.

[Skate@Delaware]

If your daughter is competing ISI, then only the elements at her current level are allowed (let me know if I'm wrong)...this evens the playing field for all competitors.

That doesn't mean a skater isn't able to perform elements from higher levels. They just can't do the in competition.

I tested ISI2 and compete ISI2, however, I have most of my jumps and footwork. I look like a higher-level skater than I actually am.

But, like others have suggested, concentrate on your daughter only....don't waste energy on anyone else it isn't worth it and you will get a bad reputation. That could hurt you in the long run (rink politics are evil).

I'm not sure about USFSA.

[hepcat]

I'm at an ISI rink, and I know that the kids end up learning elements a couple of levels before they're tested on them. For example, I don't think they actually get tested on waltz jump until freestyle 1 but they had already had them in classes before that level. Or spirals - it's a "beginning spiral" before freestyle but they definitely have them working on a true spiral and edge spirals before they are tested on them.

What I mean by this is that just because a kid can do an element doesn't mean she has passed out of a certain level yet. Heck, we weren't competing but my daughter probably looked like a "sandbagger" because she spent three or four sessions in Beta. She couldn't pass out of the level because she couldn't do t-stops. Meanwhile, her backwards crossovers got very strong with a great underpush when the kids who were starting it each session were struggling with a basic version of them. There could be one element holding this girl in a particular level that keeps her from being officially whatever level you think she is.

And as others have said, the bottom line is that it's just best to MYOB. If you've got a young skater and want to be in this for the long haul, the best thing you can do is try to minimize the drama for your child's sake. Let her coach take on the politics if they have to and keep yourself to being a cheerleader. They need a hug and a "you really worked hard today!" when they come off the ice and not whispers and cold looks from other parents. I know your skater is young but eventually, she's going to be aware of that stuff and it will be all you can do to keep her grounded without the added dynamics of resentment of other skaters.

[twokidsskatemom]

In ISI, you really cant do things from higher levels. You can do ONE thing from FS 1 in the lower levels but that is all
Even if the skater can do SOME things from a higher level doesnt mean she can do ALL of them. Or all of them enough to pass.You will always see a ton of ISI 4 that have camels, ect from higher levels. Until they have axel, they have to compete at 4.

[Isk8NYC]

The ISI put one or two tough moves on every level to make it challenging for the skaters. As a result, people often have to stay at a lower level for one element, even if they have everything else on that level.

When I skated ISI, I was very good at spins, but just okay at jumps. I passed FS5 after mastering the axel, but I was already able to do spins and other elements from FS 6/7/8. But, I couldn't do a double salchow. Double loop, okay, but not the ****** salchow! I wasn't even close because of a technique error that still dogs me to this day.

That taught me to not judge other skaters. Everybody has their weaknesses and it takes them a long time to overcome them.

[LW*]

Got to say I have a lot of sympathy on this one having come across several skaters like this when I was a kid. There were a couple of kids in the club who had been competing (and winning) at pretty much the lowest level for years, even though they could easily have passed the next three or so tests. Entirely up to them of course, cause there's no rule against it, but it did seem rather against the spirit of things for them to enter the low level, beginners club competitions against new skaters who weren't far enough on to compete in opens.

Unfortunately, not a lot we can do about it. And it's a vicious circle, cause the more skaters who do this, the more others will too to stay competitive. I guess I can see both sides of it, all competitive skaters want to do well, but some people push it a little too far in my opinion :(

[Virtualsk8r]

I don't put my lower level skaters into learn-to-skate level competitions for that reason. Why waste all that money on entry fees, coaching, costumes etc. for the little child to be outskated.

How many of these sandbaggers actually stick with the sport long enough to be a national contender? True competitors tend to skate above their level at every chance in order to prove themselves -- and test as quickly as possible. Once you've entered the juvenile and above competitive stream, there tend to be very few sandbaggers.

Which is not to say that test stream competitors are not important. I have test stream skaters who can't master the advanced skills,but give their all to every competition and are not sandbagging. They truly want to be a competitive skater but can't pass the test. And, there worst nightmare is competing at the middle levels of the test stream against skaters who clearly are capable of passing a competitive test but stick around to 'win'. Really good on the egos of the skaters who honestly deserve to be at that lower level.

PS: How many 20 year olds brag about their display case full of first-place ribbons and medals from the pre-pre-pre preliminary freeskate level???? Pretty sad to spend all that time in a sport without testing. Better to try the tests and leave the sport feeling like you actually accomplished some real figure skating skills instead of a bunch of low low low level awards.

[jskater49]

I don't put my lower level skaters into learn-to-skate level competitions for that reason. Why waste all that money on entry fees, coaching, costumes etc. for the little child to be outskated.

.

I think that's an unfortunate way to look at a competition. My dd started competing at pre-pre a couple of months after she passed the test - she couldn't even do a sit spin. She was outskated that whole year --I won't call it sandbagging but it does seem like some kids stay there for years - we saw someone doing a double sal at a pre-pre practice. But we NEVER EVER thought that the entry fees, costumes, coaching or any of it was a waste. It was a great experience for her. I think the attitude that the competition is a waste if you don't have a chance to win is what leads to sandbagging.

My dd goes to regionals every year and she always ends up last and she has a wonderful time. SHe cannot talk anyone else into going because "I don't have a chance against those skaters" --they are willing missing out.

I am so glad she learned to enjoy competition for all the other things besides winning. So she never worries about sandbaggers other than some eye rolling "OMG is she STILL at that level?"

j

[Virtualsk8r]

My dd goes to regionals every year and she always ends up last and she has a wonderful time. SHe cannot talk anyone else into going because "I don't have a chance against those skaters" --they are willing missing out.

I am so glad she learned to enjoy competition for all the other things besides winning. So she never worries about sandbaggers other than some eye rolling "OMG is she STILL at that level?"j

Good for you and your dd!!! That was my point, exactly! I don't send my little beginner skaters to local competitions full of sandbaggers because I feel the money could be better spent on lessons, ice time or better skates at that level. I DO send them to real competitions (not the learn-to-skate local types) when they are introductory or pre-prelminary stage, even if their skills are not perfect - for the experience. I don't let them see the results and we set goals for the program. They don't get to see the skaters before them and can watch afterwards only so they don't freak out. Oh - and parents are not allowed near them until afterwards!!! The kids learn that success is in the eye of the beholder - and they can set the bar for their own success.

My national level skaters learned very early in their careers, that placing first was not as important as learning how to compete and take pleasure in your own small successes.

And guess how many of those sandbagging skaters who competed against them are still in the sport????? Most bailed out years ago. The sad part is that some of these skaters could have been successful in the competitive stream, but by the time they decided to 'move up' - they were too old for Juvenile.

[twokidsskatemom]

don't put my lower level skaters into learn-to-skate level competitions for that reason. Why waste all that money on entry fees, coaching, costumes etc. for the little child to be outskated.


how would you know your skater would be outskated?Not all young skaters sandbag, some are at the level they should be. So your skaters dont get the experience of competing at a lower level.
If your skater loves competing, it shouldnt matter. You compete with yourself at the end anyway.You cant control any skate but your own.

[Kristin]

If it is possible who can it be reported to? Do you just inform the skating director who you would think would have to know. I dont really care if she is disqualified but. The Coach I would think should have to have a talking to or something. Its not like she is sandbagging oh one level its FOUR! :)

Should you report sandbagging? NO. Just pay attention to your daughter & her goals & don't worry about what other people are "doing."

Also, keep in mind there is such a thing as doing an element & doing it CORRECTLY. Whatever you do, don't start talking at your rink to everyone about how she is "sandbagging" especially since you don't know the whole story behind this little girl (and remember, it isn't the kid's fault). For all you know, her coach might be trying to get her ready to test in the USFSA competitive track, and there is a HUGE difference between basic skills & USFSA competitive track in terms of levels. For example: in order to be competitive at the first level of USFSA ("Pre-Preliminary") you need to have all your single jumps thru lutz-loop MINIMUM + a decent camel-sit spin combo. That's the equivalent of passing Freestyle 4 or 5 in ISI (!).

I'm not necessarily saying that this girl's coach is doing this, it's just an example. But if your daughter is going to be in this sport for a while, you will see a lot of things that initially don't make sense. The best way to learn what is going on is to ask your coach questions, learn as much as you can, & not start drawing conclusions about situations where you don't have the whole story. ;)

[Mel On Ice]

what's the old saying - if a skater finishes ahead of you, they're sandbagging. If they finish below you, they are skating at the right level.

Skating v. testing v. competing at the levels you are describing are so precarious. Little kids who show a great deal of aptitude one day suddenly forget how to stand up on skates the next day.

The coach, the parents or even the skater may have their own reasons for holding a skater back. I'm joining the band wagon on this one to say mind your own skater and let the rest take care of itself.

[phoenix]

Little kids who show a great deal of aptitude one day suddenly forget how to stand up on skates the next day.

ha ha!!! That's so true--I have a little one who did amazing, consistent double twizzles in her lesson one week. Alternating on each foot, all the way down the ice. I was so proud.

The next week I asked for the same thing, and she'd never heard of twizzles! Couldn't figure it out, couldn't follow along behind me, got confused about how to switch feet, and fell over every time she tried more than a single. Finally she said, "What is the point of this?" (sassy 7 year old!!) I had to agree--we moved on to something else. :lol:

[Tennisany1]

There is also the old saying in tennis "leaving your game on the practice court." I'm sure people used to think I was sandbagging when they saw me on the practice court. The thing was, I could out hit pretty much everyone at my level in practice, but when it came to a match .... well let's just say 50% lose in the first round and I was a very proud member of the 50% club!

Kids often look way better when practicing or when in a lesson - especially when the coach has made all the corrections and they are trying the element for the 5th time. And even if they do belong in a higher level there is nothing you can do about it. Encourage your daughter to do her best and leave it at that. Accusations of sandbagging will only lead to all kinds of unpleasantness and in the end nothing will change.

[mandypants]

Logan3 has a really great point that sometimes you don't know the whole story behind. For instance in my case, I have been called a sandbagger at times, but then again, I've had some medical problems, coaching problems (which led to changes) and such that made it hard to test up when I probably should have. I remember one time I wanted so badly to test up but my coach wouldn't let me! She thought I needed more experience at that particular level. It was so depressing and I ended up changing a new coach but wasted probably 6 months of time. And then one time I was all set to test and then got injured. Things happen and it's not always under the skater's control.

Anyway, I've been there where I've thought certain people in my group were sandbagging and when I was younger I thought it wasn't fair, but as I learned from experience, everyone has their own story and you just have to go out and skate the best you can and try to see where you can improve from that performance. You just have to keep focused on your own skating and try to have a good attitude.