Point of Diminishing Returns

[kander]

I frequently have sessions where my technique is out the window but I keep practicing anyways. I always wonder if continuing causes reinforcement of bad habits. Do you think it's best to quit or keep going?

Kevin

[Rusty Blades]

Personally, I don't try to "push through" times like that because there is usually a reason - like being overly tired. Last time it happened on a morning session I had a full-blown cold my noon.

[Sessy]

I noticed I am far more injury-prone after this point. Therefore, I switch to something else. My favourites to practice after this point has been reached are spirals (including biellmann, tiredness doesn't seem to affect it at all, only cold muscles do) and all kinds of MIF. Also I find that once the point of diminishing returns has been reached for one particular activity, this doesn't mean it has been reached for an other type of activity.

The reason I do continue to train and not just get off the ice, is that I'm trying to push my endurance to a higher level.

[kayskate]

Simple solution: work on something else. Ice time is precious and there is so much to do in this sport, there is always something else to practice that can be productive. If you don't know what to do and everything seems bad, just start stroking around the rink and work on knee bend and extension. You can usually do something else for a while and purge your system of the bad habit that was bothering you before. Then you can go back to something that was not working well w a fresh perspective.

Kay

[coskater64]

Practicing bad technique reinforces bad habits and if you are skating at gold or higher you will get dinged under IJS for lips or flutzes, not to mention toe-waltzes or toe-axels, any pre-rotation in or out will also be dinged. When in doubt work on something different edge quality, power, flow and ease gain points.:halo: :halo:

[jazzpants]

Yo, Kevin!

If you find yourself having a bad day with your jumps, don't keep practicing it!!! Yes, you WILL reinforce bad habits AND you might even increase the chance of injurying yourself thru overuse. I limit myself to a certain number of jumps per day b/c I just have way too many things to practice to worry about getting stuck on this one thing.

Train smarter, NOT harder!!! If you're having trouble with a jump... shelf it 'til you can get to your coach to fix it. (And I know your coach well enough to know that if you do what he tells 'ya, it will get fixed. (Of course, then there's telling your body to cooperate, but that's another story... :halo: :lol: )

[myste12]

I hate leaving something on a bad note, but when your technique isn't improving, you just have to let it go. (Until your coach is around to fix it that is!)

[SynchroSk8r114]

You can't beat a dead horse, LOL! :lol:

Still, I'm the same way with my doubles. I'm so determined to get/fix what I'm not getting or doing right that I can easily spend an entire session doing the same double over and over. Usually, however, I find that I'm either wasting my time and growing more and more tired, only fixing about 10-20% of the problem jump, or reinforcing a bad habit. As hard or frustrating as it is, sometime's it's just best to move on until you have that outside opinion (i.e., your coach) watching and offering suggestions. (LOL, easier said than done for me! ;)).

[cecealias]

Hi Kevin,

I can feel your pain. Sometimes the body has a bad day. Othertimes it's not really a bad day but maybe it's not yet warmed up.

For me its important to know how I'm feeling and checking to see if other consistent elements are having the same problems.

Just because something is not working on the first couple of passes doesn't mean I can't work on it, I just have to make careful decisions about how to approach it. For example, if the double isn't working, you can do *** many things***. You can GO BACK TO THE SINGLE, or go back to the TAKEOFF prep or take a break and work on spins or moves. In fact, if you're having a bad multi rev day , it's going to help you more in the long run to not work the double or triple, but instead work on making the single HUGE. Then if you go back to double/triple, you can surprise yourself.

Or, if the higher level moves aren't working, go back to the lower level moves and check them out. I think the fundamental theme is to work and rework your foundation. A lot people tell me they hate this because it makes them feel like they are not making progress by tackling advanced moves, but the truth of the matter is that the more solid the foundation the easier and cleaner the your advanced technique will be. You certainly won't have to muscle or force things to happen when the technique is good.

One time I didn't skate for 4 weeks, and things felt funny when I got back on the ice. In those cases I go all the way back to the beginning - pre-pre moves and recondition all the edges. It takes a bit of patience but it pays jackpots in the end. Some people think this is really stupid to practice things they (think they) already know how to do, but again we can leave them out of this discussion ;)

[jazzpants]

You can't beat a dead horse, LOL! :lol: SURE you can! Here!!!

http://gymgossip.com/Smileys/Kustom/beatdeadhorse5.gif

(Sorry! Couldn't resist... :lol: )

And JUST for ISk8NYC!!! :twisted:

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And no one can talk to a horse of course
That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mister Ed.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Isk8NYC]

Thanks, Jazz! It's okay - DH received a set of Brady Bunch DVD's for Christmas, so THAT song's stuck in my head. No room for Mr. Ed, sorry! LOL

When I first started taking lessons, I remember being incredibly frustrated that I couldn't land my singles. (Talk about history repeating itself!) I spent about three weeks doing only spirals and spins on every practice, only jumping during lessons. To this day, I have very nice spirals and spins, even being 100 lbs. overweight, and I really think it was from that period.

If you're tired and frustrated, you can get off or work on other things. My latest "&*&((&" alternative is doing spreadeagles and spiral sequences. It works well for me and doesn't waste my ice time.

[CanAmSk8ter]

The simple answer is YES, you are reinforcing bad habits and should stop working on whatever it is. Don't think of it as quitting- that was my issue as a teenager. If I was working on my axel and falling repeatedly, I thought it was shameful to "quit" and do something else. My coach would actually have to come over between her other lessons and tell me, "I don't want to see any more axels from you today. Work on your ____. If I see another axel, you're getting off the ice." She never had to follow through on the threat, because I knew she would! Eventually, I got so that I could stop myself from getting locked into that "I'm not going to stop with this until I have it" mindset.

Something another coach of mine used to have her students do when they were working on something new was to figure out before they even started how many times they were going to try it, and what they were going to work on after. I think having decided what you're going to do next makes it easier to move on after you've done your fifteen double axels or whatever. I wish I had taken from her when I was still competing in freestyle.

[Sonic]

I think the way to go is the one suggested many times on this forum - the old 'try it four times then leave well alone' thing. Apart from the danger of enforcing a bad habbit, repeatedly messing up an element is just frustrating.

If I'm having a bad skate day or generally not feeling great I use it as an opportunity to dust off basic stuff that doesn't take too much energy but can always use the practise - e.g. vanilla edges, stroking, cross rolls, three turns etc.

Or just do 'fun' stuff (when I say 'do', I really mean 'attempt' here!) such as hydroblades/drag-threes, Ina Bauers....)

S x