Assisting teaching kids: observations and questions

[Query]

As I've said before, I am not a coach. But I volunteered to assist-instruct at a local rink which uses volunteers to teach kids in a disadvantaged neighborhood. Few would be able to pay for lessons from paid coaches.

Teaching basic skating is more difficult than I had guessed.

How typical are these observations, pertaining to the USFSA SS1 - B4 level classes I mostly assisted with?

(Some of these observations have more to do with parents than students, and may relate to the fact that we offer lessons for free.)

1. Maybe 10% of the students ever practice outside classes.

2. Most of the students dropped out. And no, not just for the inexperienced instructors. Some of the volunteers are experienced pros.

3. Of those that remain, over half skip classes and somewhat less than half come late.

4. I would guess we see 5% of kids in this program with a variety of handicaps that hamper their ability to master skills. I'm not including behavior problems, as I believe most be solved, though it is hard in a group lesson environment.

My best guess is parents take such kids to the lessons to work on overcoming these problems. A good idea, but hard for inexperienced volunteers to deal with.

Is the fraction with these problems because of the disadvantaged neighborhood, or is it typical?

5. When I've watch little kids pick up freestyle moves I can not do in a single private lesson, I've been amazed how quickly kids learn, and wished I started a lot younger.

Now I see the flip side - most beginner kids are about as clumsy and scared as your average beginner adult, some get hurt in very basic skating, and many learn about the same speed.

I.E., by the time you see kids taking freestyle lessons, they are completely atypical. More athletically skilled, faster at learning physical skills, more parentally encouraged, motivated, and hard working then perhaps 99% of new group lesson students. The overwhelming majority must drop out before getting there.

Would anyone care to give a better guess at what I have called 99%?

Or give a guess of how much of the difference is parental encouragement and support, and much much is innate ability?

I'm guessing more adults who start taking lessons stay with it than kids do, and that is a lot of why your average private lesson kid learns so much faster than your average private lesson adult. (Partly there is that tiny motivating factor that adults mostly pay their own way.)

6. When you have a lot of kids under maybe 9 or 10, crowd control and baby sitting are a significant fraction of your time.

7. Some parents make hockey kids take figure skating lessons. Coming in hockey skates, sometimes full hockey gear, is not atypical. Various class disruption issues result. Some think they should be able to get out of doing figure skating moves, like spins, because they say they can't be done on hockey skates.

(So I rented hockey skates and found they can, and it isn't much harder. I didn't let them get away with that. Especially since the hockey kids mostly do get a lot more practice than most of the others.)

8. Skating for more than a few seconds on one foot is very difficult for many kids. They can not make themselves commit to center their weight over one skate. When it comes to skating on an outside edge, you are asking for a miracle, from the majority of kids. In our group lesson program, they let some kids to advance with imperfect outside edge balance, but they are unable to learn crossovers or 3-turns well, and sometimes unable to do half-swizzle pumps on a circle, without good outside edges. (Since my own 3-turns are not demo quality, I asked not to assist further with that level class, and can't tell you how well they eventually learn those.)

9. As an exercise in balance, I had kids try to stand still on the ice balanced on one skate. The idea is to let them see they always fall inwards, because they aren't centered.

I've used on this exercise myself for years, in a variety of positions (like Yoga Tree). It never troubled me I couldn't hold the position. I knew it was impossible. It is a sign of successful centering to fall about the same fraction of the time to either side.

For most of the kids this works to the extant they can see they are always on the inside edge. (Solving it is another matter.)

But three kids out of the maybe 40 or 50 I tried this with held the position, on more or less the first attempt. One was in Basic 1. How the heck did they do that? I know it is impossible.

10. Analytic learning is almost non-existent in kids. Explaining mostly doesn't work.

They watch (sometimes) and learn by watching. They may or not pick it up right - e.g., posture is ignored by many kids. Telling them what is wrong has little or no effect.

To some extant, it helps to show them what not to do, in spite of the advice of pundits that you should never do that.

Placing an arm in the right position sometimes helps, but I'm a bit leery touching kids might be misinterpreted.

I simply could not find a way to get many to understand not bowing at the waist.

Based on discussions with other adult skaters, I believe the situation is reversed for most adults, though I am a bit of an extreme case.

Take for example my inability to do forward outside 3 turns along a hockey circle without drifting inwards from the circle. I need to understand I need to shift back and inwards my shoulder and shoulder blade. I need to understand the main point of that is to twist the upper torso around, which has more mass and can therefore influence motion more than the shoulder. The goal is to stop the lower body and blade rotation when it points backwards. If it continues past that point, it will continue to rotate because alignment along motion is only meta-stable. When my tendons and ligaments grow taught after rotating my shoulder and upper torso they exert a torque that must stop the lower body rotation long enough for the blade position to stabilize.

When someone says to straighten and bend my knees during 3-turns, I need to understand that this is just a means of rocking the blade forwards and back, so that drag occurs near the toe pick to initiate the turn, then at the back to stop it - as opposed to leaning inwards, a much more efficient way of initiating a turn, but which prevents me from staying along the same arc.

Likewise for a bunch of other bad habits I would never understand or pick up from a visual demo.

I had to find a coach that has analyzed motions to this level before I could make even a little progress. I think she is a very good coach.

Can you imagine explaining these things to a kid? Way too abstract. For the most part, if they don't understand it from the visual demo, they simply won't get it.

[kayskate]

You mentioned analytic learning being almost absent in kids. There is a theory about this proposed by Piaget, one of the best known developmental psychologists. Ppl progress through 4 cognitive development stages:

Sensorimotor stage (Infancy)
Pre-operational stage (Toddler and Early Childhood)
Concrete operational stage (Elementary and early adolescence)
Formal operational stage (Adolescence and adulthood)

The stage you are writing about is the last one. Some ppl never get there. This also explains why adults learn well from detailed descriptions and systematic break-down of skills into logical components that make sense to them.

For more info go to:
http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/cogsys/piaget.html

Kay

[dooobedooo]

Can't find the thread (can anybody locate it?), but apparently research from NISA (National Ice Skating Association of UK) shows that:

1. Of all the people who join a Learn to Skate class, only 1 percent go on to do Level 1 test (that is the first test for serious skaters; requires program, upright spin and two single jumps).

2. Of all those who do Level 1, only 1 percent achieve Level 5 (level 5 standard varies, but is roughly Foxtrot/Willow Waltz in dance and roughly axel with flow and double jump in free).

So that means only 1 in 10,000 from Learn to Skate get to Level 5. :??

I expect plenty of the others continue to enjoy the sport and skate regularly, however - they just don't achieve that level.

[Skate@Delaware]

You are talking about kids in underserved neighborhoods-they might have attention problems/developmental problems, etc.

Plus, they are kids. You have to approach things on their level. Don't over-describe things. Keep things simple and fun.

Also, don't be overly critical of their skating...what we would not accept at Basic 6 is certainly acceptable at a Basic 1 and very acceptable at SnowPlow Sam 1-3.

For instance, gliding on one foot. For kids in SnowPlow, you would expect them to glide perhaps a distance equal to their height. For Basic 4 and above, you would expect more distance and more control (i.e. arms). They will look different.

We run into problems with kids dropping out, skipping, not practicing. That is everywhere you go. The best you can do is tell them the basic stuff helps them with the more advanced stuff down the road.

As for their fears, I don't play into them. I tell them "everyone falls thats why we need to know how to fall safely" and move on. If they fall, I don't make a huge deal out of it, just ask if they are ok and move on. For the scaredy-cats, I try to build their confidence by reminding them how far their skills have come. Usually, it's the kids that don't fall that are the most afraid. I worry more about the ones that are constantly throwing themselves down on the ice!!!!

Do you have the instructor's manual? It gives the basics for each level and what is expected of the student. We use ours all the time. If you don't have one, ask your skating director for one.

[blue111moon]

In my almost 20 years of teaching LTS groups, I think I can plan on a 25% drop-out rate during the season and probably more than 50% from one season to the next. It's higher among the older kids - interests change, people move, schools offer other, cheaper activities. I don't take it as a reflection on my teaching skills because the ones who come back generally comment that they come back because they had such a good time with me.

(Yes, I'm humble, too. :) )

But a high dropout rate is pretty much expected among general LTS programs 0 programs that aren't run by hockey programs or skating clubs. General LTS programs usually get the kids whose parents want them to learn how to survive on a frozen pond or on a public session or at another kid's on-ice birthday party. Once the kids can stand up and move around on their own, that's pretty much good enough and they're gone. They aren't looking to turn their kid into the next Gretzsky or Kwan.

So what you teach in a general program is different from what you teach in a hockey program or a figure skating program. In fact, you're not teaching hockey or figure skating to these kids, you're teaching skating. At least, I am. I teach for three different programs, one hockey, one figure skating and one general and I teach the same skills the same way in all three. But I'm teaching the absolute beginners in all three. I don't expect hockey posture or pointed toes or graceful arms from them. I'm teaching them to fall down, get up, march, glide and stop and have fun doing it.

If they have enough fun and learn something, then maybe they'll come back and learn the finer points from one of the other coaches. But they can't learn those finer points if they haven't learned to SKATE first.

So in the OP's case, I'd just pick a handful of skills that are within the range of abilities in my class and teach just those in as enjoyable a manner as possible - play games, tell jokes, laugh and be silly (depending upon the ages of the skaters) and concentrate on getting them to do those skills with reasonable competance without expecting perfection and with emphasis on doing them safely.

Attention and developental issues happen in every program; the only difference is that the parents of kids in more affluent areas already know and will tell you about their kids' issues and the ones in the more disadvantaged areas either don't know, don't care or or don't want anyone to know about what's "wrong" with their kid. (A vast genralization, I know.) It's just a matter of making minor changes to my teaching style to reach them.

But there are always one or two kids in every program who CAN'T learn to skate. Sometimes it's a physical thing where the body just isn't capable of doing the skills, sometimes the child is too young or too immature to absorb the instruction, sometimes the kid just doesn't like the idea and refuses to try, and sometimes the kids is too terrified to make the attempt and no amount of encouragement is going to get them past that fear. There's not a lot you can do about those kids except let them go try soccer or swimming.

[singerskates]

I'm not a skating coach either but I program assist on Big & Little Skate (kids ages 2 to 6 with a parent/guardian or sibling on the ice with them), on CanSkate (kids ages 5 & Up) and on Pre-PowerSkate (program geared to get skaters ready for PowerSkate which teaches hockey type skating skills and drills).

One thing that I notice is that on the Big & Little Skate some kids either love to be on the ice or they can't wait to get off of the ice even if their parent is there on the ice with them. And if a child is sick, it is a total waste of time to try to motivate a child to do a skating move. It is better to just have the parent take them off of the ice.

Most of the CanSkate skaters like being on the ice. But the young ones, even if they can do the skating skills in their level well, still have days where if they can't see their parent(s) they don't want to continued on the ice. I think it would be much better for those kids who need to see their parents almost every moment and tend to freak out if they would be registered in the Big & Little Skate instead of CanSkate. I also think CanSkate shouldn't allow children under 6 to be registered in it. Let the kids who are 5 and under learn the first few levels of CanSkate with their parents on the ice with them in the Big & Little Skate class. This way we would see a better success rate of those who enter CanSkate and the kids 5 and under wouldn't freak out so much. We would still have levels 1 and 2 on CanSkate but these would be reserved for those who 6 & up and just beginning. I find that the skating students who are at least 6 and up wish to be on the ice 99% of the time and take instruction well.

There is reason why most of the skaters with whom I work do well. Before learning to skate myself as an adult, I learned how to teach by volunteering in my children's school and later taught as a music teacher in the same school from grades junior kindergarden to grade 8. I had to find a way to get to the kids' level to enter their world and I also used their lingo to explain things. I also broke things down for them. This is why skating is taught in stages to children. If you take the time to think as a child, then children respond much better. Kids love friendly competition and they also love to be praised for what they do. They are always seeking approval.

When trying to correct a child always find something good about the way they did something and then tell them how they can make it even better. And sometimes it's also good to show them over exageratedly how they are skating to get a point across; ei. When skater/child pushing with their toe picks when skating forwards, I sometimes bend over at the waist, place my hands at the upper side of my head with my pointer fingers acting as horns and then push with my toe picks and ask them what they see. Most of the time they laugh and say they see a bull. Then we agree that it's kind of silly to skate that way.

As for having to touch a child to correct arm placement, you don't have to touch them at all. The game follow the leader or Simon says for the younger ones (8 and under) works well. Often they don't even realize that they are learning. They just think they are playing a game. The older ones seem to take verbal instruction/correction much easier. To get them to stroke and stop, we play "What Time Is It Mr. Wolf". Then there's Red Light, Green Light. You can add all sorts of colours for different skills too.

As far as the older children being more timid about falling, it's only because they know that if they fall the wrong way it could hurt. Once an older child/teen gets over their fear, I find that they absorb skills much faster than the younger children. But don't expect to talk to or explain skating skills to an older child/teen in the same way as you would a young child. For an older child you can start to use simple scientific facts to explain things; explaining balance on one foot while moving to an older child/teen - talk about how one stays upright while riding a bike because the bike is moving but if the bike is stays in one place and you are on it, you fall over to the ground. Use examples they have already experienced in life to explain a new skating skill.

For the older teen and adult, you can get right down to the scientic detail and also pin point what is the cause for the result they are having and then tell them the exact detail which could correct the problem. My secondary coach Vern Taylor does this for me and it works. I'm working on getting my jumps to be clean upto double Salchow. I've only been back with him for a few weeks and I've noticed a difference compared to how my main coach who finds himself talking to me like one of the kids coaches me. I'm my main coach's first adult student but not my secondary coach's first student. I've had my secondary as my main coach before. I would love to have my secondary coach as my main coach but being that he doesn't coach at my club anymore, it's kind of hard for that to happen.

singerskates

[singerskates]

I'm not a skating coach either but I program assist on Big & Little Skate (kids ages 2 to 6 with a parent/guardian or sibling on the ice with them), on CanSkate (kids ages 5 & Up) and on Pre-PowerSkate (program geared to get skaters ready for PowerSkate which teaches hockey type skating skills and drills).

One thing that I notice is that on the Big & Little Skate some kids either love to be on the ice or they can't wait to get off of the ice even if their parent is there on the ice with them. And if a child is sick, it is a total waste of time to try to motivate a child to do a skating move. It is better to just have the parent take them off of the ice.

Most of the CanSkate skaters like being on the ice. But the young ones even if they can do the skating skills in their level well still have days where if they can't see their parent(s), they don't want to continued on the ice. I think it would be much better for those kids who need to see their parents almost every moment and tend to freak out if they don't to be registered for the Big & Little Skate instead of CanSkate. I also think CanSkate shouldn't allow children under 6 to be registered in it. Let the kids who are 5 and under to learn the first few levels of CanSkate with their parents on the ice with them. This way we would see a better success rate of those who enter CanSkate. We would still have levels 1 and 2 on CanSkate but these would be reserved for those who 6 & up. I find that the skating students who are at least 6 and up wish to be on the ice 99% of the time and take instruction well.

There is another reason why most of the skaters with whom I work do well. Before learning to skate myself as an adult, I learned how to teach by volunteering in my children's school and later being a music teacher in the same school. I had to find a way to get to the kid's level to enter their world and I also used their lingo to explain things. I also broke things down for them. This is why skating is taught in stages to children. If you take the time to think as a child, then children respond much better. Kids love friendly competition and they also love to be praised for what they do. They are always seeking approval.

When trying to correct a child always find something good about they did and then tell them how they can make it even better. And sometimes it's also good to show them over exageratedly how they are skating to get a point across; ei. When skater/child pushing with their toe picks when skating forwards, I sometimes bend over at the waist, place my hands at the upper side of my head with my pointer fingers acting as horns and then push with my toe picks and ask them what they see. Most of the time they laugh and say they see a bull. Then we agree that it's kind of silly to skate that way.

As for having to touch a child to correct arm placement, you don't have to touch them at all. The game follow the leader or simone says for the younger ones (8 and under) works well. Often they don't even realize that they are learning. They just think they are playing a game. The older ones seem to take verbal instruction/correction much easier.

As far as the older children being more timid about falling, it's only because they know that if they fall the wrong way it could hurt. Once an older child/teen gets over their fear, I find that they absorb skills much faster then the younger children. But don't expect to talk to or explain skating skills to an older child/teen in the same way as you would a young child. For an older child you can start to use simple scientific facts to explain things; explaining balance while moving to an older child/teen - talk about how one stays upright while riding a bike because the bike is moving but if the bike is stays in one place and you are on it, you fall over to the ground. Use examples they have already experienced in life to explain a new skating skill.

For the older teen and adult, you can get right down to the scientic detail and also pin point what is the cause for the result they are having and then tell them the exact detail which could correct the problem. My secondary coach Vern Taylor does this for me and it works. I'm working on getting my jumps to be clean upto double Salchow. I've only been back with him for a few weeks and I've noticed a difference compared to how my main coach who finds himself talking to me like one of the kids coaches me. I'm my main coach's first adult student but not my secondary coach's first student and I've had my secondary as my main coach before. I would love to have my secondary coach as my main coach but being that he doesn't coach at my club anymore, it's kind of hard for that to happen.

singerskates

[slusher]

I teach three and four year olds. It's an age group I like, and it's made me a much better coach for older skaters because I teach them like three and four year olds. :D I used to overexplain to kids. Now, it's demonstrate a piece of the progression and let's go! I sweat buckets when I teach.

I teach differently when I teach adults. I demonstrate first, then explain, then break it down, then demonstrate again, then have them do a progression exercise. Lots of talking! Kids, I'm more careful about. If I demonstrated an axel (as if I can do one), by the time I opened my mouth, some kid would have tried one.

I also teach school groups on outings. Most kids know how to skate, sort of, it is Canada after all, and mostly I try to teach stopping because it's okay to skate fast, but slamming into the boards or other kids is not the way to stop. If I'm lucky, one kid out of 30 or 40 had taken a skating lesson some time in their life. There's lots of kids playing house league hockey at age 8 or 9 that can't stop but think they can skate because "they play hockey". They're having fun though, I'm definitely not as serious as teaching and reinforcing for these classes, if they can at least stop, I don't care if it's pretty, they've stopped!

[Query]

Most kids know how to skate, sort of, it is Canada after all... If I'm lucky, one kid out of 30 or 40 had taken a skating lesson some time in their life.


I imagine Canadian babies instinctively climb out of their cribs, put on hockey skates, and skate away into the great white north. Weeee!

Is it learned from parents, other kids, or in kindergarten?

if they can at least stop, I don't care if it's pretty, they've stopped!

I don't think the first taught stop should be the snowplow. It is slow and unreliable, requires flexibility, has awkward balance, and is only used by beginners. (Or do Canadians actually instinctively climb out of their cribs, put on skis, and snowplow downhill into the great white north?) Outside class, if someone asks me how to stop, I show them how to swing their arms around into a short spin. They learn it immediately, though one was afraid. I know swinging arms is unaesthetic by figure skating standards, but it always works. It requires less balance than any non-falling stop, and stops faster and more reliably than snowplow and T stops.

I showed it to my coach, Barbara McDonnell Walker. She says it has certain disadvantages for one's ice dance partner.

[jskater49]

I don't think the first taught stop should be the snowplow. It is slow and unreliable, requires flexibility, has awkward balance, and is only used by beginners. (Or do Canadians actually instinctively climb out of their cribs, put on skis, and snowplow downhill into the great white north?) Outside class, if someone asks me how to stop, I show them how to swing their arms around into a short spin. They learn it immediately, though one was afraid. I know swinging arms is unaesthetic by figure skating standards, but it always works. It requires less balance than any non-falling stop, and stops faster and more reliably than snowplow and T stops.


Well it's all relative but I don't think of myself as a beginner, but I use a snowplow stop unless I'm trying to be pretty. That's the stop I see just about every skater use if they want to stop in a hurry and don't care how it looks. So what stop do you think non-beginners use? And I don't particulary want to spin when I stop, so I'm not using your stop either.

[Query]

>That's the stop I see just about every skater use
>if they want to stop in a hurry and don't care
>how it looks.

Because it's the first one taught? Maybe it is fast for flexible people. I admit it seems easy on downhill skis.

----

BTW I love singerskates' idea the whole class should be a sequence of games that teach.

Schools and colleges should be like that too.

[Skittl1321]

>So what stop do you think non-beginners use?

Some type of T or hockey stop.

BTW I _love_ singerskates' idea the whole lesson should be a sequence of games that teach.

Maybe schools and colleges should be like that too.

About games- that's how I teach my snowplow classes. We play games the entire time. There is never "okay now we are going to pracitce wiggles", but after we play a game, I will tell them the name of the move and ask them to repeat it.

However, when I teach beginning adults, we don't play games. The classes are usually too small, but the adults I have taught (and when I was in LTS) are VERY analytical. They want to have each step broken down and know WHY the moves work. A kid- you show a swizzle, they mess it up a few times, and they do a swizzle. Many adults won't ever TRY to do a swizzle, until you explain how it works, how bending your knees helps, what part of the blade to be on, why edges make the skates go on a curve, etc. At least in my experience, adults learning through games isn't the same. It should, however, still be fun for the adult.

If I was still a student and I went to a college that taught in games, I would quickly transfer. That might work for some people, as everyone's learning style is different, but I would HATE that.

And a T-stop for a beginner? I've progressed relatively quickly- but a T-stop took me 4 months to do sort of okay, and 6 months to do well. Even now, I can do it as a reliable stop, but I can't stop on a dime with it. I see little girls with axels who still drag their inside edge instead of the correct outside edge. If I need to stop as fast as possible (say to avoid knocking a child down) I would do a one foot snowplow. A hockey stop, for me, is even harder than the T-stop, so that's not viable. I think kids get that faster than the T-stop, but it still takes them much longer than a snowplow. Older kids, and adults, generally just get taught a one foot snowplow.

I cannot imagine that enough beginners would be more successful at a T-stop than at a snowplow stop to make it the first stop taught.

I've had great luck with snowplow sam kids getting snowplow stops. Most of them couldn't handle a "spin around" stop- because they don't have the ability to skate on their edges, even with two feet. But these kids are 2-5 years old. Maybe the "spin around" idea works for recreational skaters who have some sort of skill in 2 foot gliding on their edges, rather than their flats. But for the kids I teach, that concept is more advanced than the "bend you knees, and push your feet to make snow" that we do. (The games we do- we draw flowers on the ice- pushing the feet out, to make 2 petals, turning a little bit and repeating until we've done it 4 times for 8 petals. We write their names on the ice and then they scrape it up, then we play red light green light with a yellow light for "bend your knees")

[Isk8NYC]

I tell newbies who can't stop that they should glide on two feet next to the wall, bend their knees like they're sitting on a toadstool, and keep their hands on their knees or in front where they can see them. They'll eventually slow down enough to grab the wall.

A lot of kids self-teach that "spin around" stop, but there are a lot of falls and head injuries that result from their sharing this maneuver. It only works if the kid isn't a flailer - one shoulder to the rear and we're looking at a concussion, especially near the wall. (Which is usually their destination.) I would never teach that to anyone - I'd lose my insurance.

Teaching snowplow stops to kids on rentals is easy - the blades are so dull, it's just a matter of getting their feet to "make a pizza slice" and keeping their arms in front. Sharp, new skates is a different problem. (I've been known to dull down beginners on super-sharp skates with my stone.)


The stop most newbies use these days is a rollerblade stop - digging the heel point into the ice to make a groove. Lovely when they do it across the middle. :roll: (Also noticed they have good stretch on their two-foot glides, thanks to the Heelies roller shoes.)

Backwards with toepicks makes the same ice rips, but back snowplow stops are hard for beginners who can barely figure out how they're going backward in the first place. lol My last skating director INSISTED that no one above Basic 4 use their toe picks to stop going backward. (That included me, too! :oops: ) She would say something if she caught the skater doing that and groups had to then practice back snowplow stops, regardless of that day's lesson plan.

[Ellyn]

Well it's all relative but I don't think of myself as a beginner, but I use a snowplow stop unless I'm trying to be pretty.

Heh, I often use the snowplow stop even when I am trying to be pretty. I can definitely look nicer doing that than any other stop.

I can do T stops only at low speed, e.g., exiting the forward flat spirals on the US prepreliminary and adult silver tests. I told my coach I need to work on T stops so I could do them exiting power moves as well to look nice on the test, and she said the snowplow looks better anyway. (Not sure if she meant in general, or just for me.)

[Query]

However, when I teach beginning adults, we don't play games... If I was still a student and I went to a college that taught in games, I would quickly transfer.

:giveup: Must be my second childhood.

[Skittl1321]

:giveup: Must be my second childhood.

I did say that it still needs to be fun for adults, but what games would you play?


Would the majority of adults WANT to play "five little monkeys jumping on the bed", "London Bridge is Falling Down", and "What time is it Mr. Fox?" if they are in an adult class?

Most of them are embarrased enough to be learning to skate as an adult as is. Instruction needs to be age appropriate.

However, it is definetly a technique I use to occasionally say "now if you were in my tots class, I'd tell you to grab your fork with your right hand, and your spoon with your left hand and keep it on the magic table, with a bit of a laugh. Then the adult does learns the same concept- using the same imagery as the kids. But, say for swizzles, while I'll have the adult do the heels/toes, I'm not going to ask them to sing "heels and toes, heels and toes, heels and toes and away we go" like I would with the kids.

I'd love to hear the games you have for adults, they could be fun additions- but I still think most adult students would prefer an analytical approach than a just get out there and do it approach that games tend to be. (But they could kill time near the end)

[Skittl1321]

Heh, I often use the snowplow stop even when I am trying to be pretty. I can definitely look nicer doing that than any other stop.

I can do T stops only at low speed, e.g., exiting the forward flat spirals on the US prepreliminary and adult silver tests. I told my coach I need to work on T stops so I could do them exiting power moves as well to look nice on the test, and she said the snowplow looks better anyway. (Not sure if she meant in general, or just for me.)

I perfected my t-stop specifically for the pre-bronze test. Day of the test I was so nervous the only time I actually did one was to greet the judges. The stop disappeared and I snowplowed instead.

I CAN exit power moves with a t-stop. But by the time I'm all the way stopped I'm 3/4 of the way across the rink ;)

[Query]

I did say that it still needs to be fun for adults, but what games would you play?

This is hard, but I will try. I'll save my best idea for last.

1. I went to a speed skating club session which started with a chase-avoidance game adults and kids enjoyed. But speed and hockey skaters use protection.

2. Racing is a really good way for kids and adults to figure out how to move efficiently in other sports, like running and kayaking.

But "proper" figure skating isn’t entirely efficiency. As far as I can tell, it is most efficient to curl and lean forwards and into turns, to use the toe pick to push, to start turns, edge changes and spins using your arms, to change edges to gain speed, etc. But none of those are good form the way figure skating is currently judged.

3. I play at falls, but had to start off-ice. It took a long time before they were fun – I needed enough practice to make them reasonably safe in real world application. The majority of adults I’ve tried to show falls have been openly afraid, and think I’m crazy. (They are right.)

I’ve had really good luck teaching kids the hand-arm-body touch-and-glide falls on ice. They have so much fun, it can be hard to get them to stop and learn something else. I haven’t dared teach backwards rolls on ice. All it would take to make a bad injury is for one kid not to tuck the head in. The sort-of rolling backwards fall USFSA says to teach, I was required to teach, but it scares me – very easy to do wrong, and I’ve talked to people who've damaged sit-bones, hip-bones, and spines, using it.

I would love the opportunity to teach gentle falls to adults, but would definitely want to teach it on soft mats first, from less than standing height. I'm having a hard time figuring out how to make it fun from the start.

4. I’ve considered playing non-checking hockey for myself – but the equipment is expensive, and many adults find it scary.

5. Not exactly a game, but adult skaters love to show and teach each other what they’ve learned. There must be some way to use that in a class setting. Bring back the one room school house?

6. Hmmm. Adult skating games...

That’s what adult competitions are, but you have to be pretty good to be able to go. I think most beginner adults would be too self-conscious at lower levels.

The problem with most adult competitive activities is that most are not fun for the losers. There isn’t really such a thing as losing a splash fight, so that is a little different. Adult games would have to be more like that.

Maybe other people can come up with ideas in this arena. For now, I'm just stumped.

---

Oh wait - I've got one that I've been thinking about for a long while. Not within the context of standard ISI/USFSA classes or technique, but I would love it:

7. Some sort of low level ice dancing could be a lot of fun, if done socially, like ballroom dance usually is. (I've complained elsewhere that ice dancing in my geographic area is taken so seriously and competitively that people only dance with their coaches or the partners the coaches assign. That isn't true all places.) As with ballroom, you can start at a very low level of expertise. Let them bring hockey skates if they want, but warn the newbies how unstable they are. Forget the large patterns that appear in the rulebook, because that limits the number of people on the ice and causes potential problems. Encourage spontaneity in form or dress or choreography, instead of focusing only on set pattern dances. Short lesson, then called or free dancing. Better music, possibly live. In other words, imitate what you might see in an off-ice contra, folk, square or line dance session.

For partner dancing, which is the most socially fun, you need a fairly balanced gender ratio, which could be hard, but if we can start at a fairly beginner level, we could recruit land social/folk/square/ballroom dancers. Many dances held in community centers (not in private facilities where they try to keep their students to themselves) let you advertise other dance activies by leaving or posting flyers, and there are a lot of land dancers.

Since many would be beginners, it might help to encourage helmets and padding at first. That requires some thought - shouldn't be too expensive, but the kind of injury rate you see at most ice rinks would scare a lot of the land dancers away. (I still believe in teaching falls, but the problems I mentioned earlier do apply.)

[Skittl1321]

7. Some sort of low level ice dancing could be a lot of fun, if done socially, like ballroom dance usually is. (I've complained elsewhere that ice dancing in my geographic area is taken so seriously and competitively that people only dance with their coaches or the partners the coaches assign. That isn't true all places.) As with ballroom, you can start at a very low level of expertise. Let them bring hockey skates if they want, but warn the newbies how unstable they are. Forget the large patterns that appear in the rulebook, because that limits the number of people on the ice and causes potential problems. Encourage spontaneity in form or dress or choreography, instead of focusing only on set pattern dances. Short lesson, then called or free dancing. Better music, possibly live. In other words, imitate what you might see in an off-ice contra, fork, square or line dance session.

For partner dancing, which is the most socially fun, you need a fairly balanced gender ratio, which could be hard, but if we can start at a fairly beginner level, we could recruit land social/folk/square/ballroom dancers. Many dances held in community centers (not in private facilities where they try to keep their students to themselves) let you advertise by leaving or posting flyers, and there are a lot of land dancers.

Since many would be beginners, it might help to use helmets and padding at first.

Like I said before, I still want to make it FUN for adults- but I think a lot of the ideas you have assume some skating profiency.

I like the idea of dancing- although we get 10 ladies for every 1 man in the adult classes. (Although, interestingly, father/mother ratios in parent tot classes tend to be even)- but once againk, they have to already know how to skate. In ballroom, you can start at a low level of profiency because they know how to walk. In ice dance- you already have to know how to stroke, glide, turn.

I definetly think the style of the lessons depend on goals. If they are in a large group, well then the goal has to be "learn the elements of this level" but in a smaller group, the goals can be much more personal, which can allow better for things like races and such rather than "trace the 3" just for turns. But to race, you have to first know how to skate. Kids will race when they can just "march". Most adults don't feel they are prepared to hone their skills in a competitive environment until they are able to glide or stroke. Honestly, I think because of the awareness of the level they are at for their age, many adults who are just marching are embarrassed because they know that's not "real" skating. They forget to base their level on the amount of time they have been on the ice. Very young kids don't have an awareness of how they are doing based on a set standard, just based on how the other kids in the class are, which is why it's important to have them in the correct level.

I do also agree that adults really like show and tell amongst themselves with new elements, and I do use that, but to me that's not a game.


But "proper" figure skating isn’t entirely efficiency. As far as I can tell, it is most efficient to curl and lean forwards and into turns, to use the toe pick to push, to start turns, edge changes and spins using your arms, to change edges to gain speed, etc. But none of those are good form the way figure skating is currently judged.

I really have to disagree with you here. I don't think there is any efficiency to using the toe-pick, unless you are a beginner who does not know how to use edges properly. If there was, you'd see some sort of rake on speed skates and hockey skates so they could toe push when they skate. Not to mention, pushing with the toe at speed causes falls, not more speed.

[Query]

>In ice dance- you already have to know how to
>stroke, glide, turn.

Which is why you would need to get away from ice dance as it appears in the rule book, at the entry level.

Even so, you have a good point. I can't imagine the adults I see hanging onto the boards dancing.

I love this idea so much I will try to rescue it.

You might need a sequence of a dozen or so class sessions that culminate in partner dancing, or the equivalent of line dancing.

Perhaps start the dancing with nothing more than forwards strokes and two foot glides, swizzles, and simple two foot direction changes (at most 90 degree changes).

For partner dancing position people in progressive lines, changing corners, like a contra, and encourage partner progression. Start with seperated body positions, then loose hand-in-hand positions, so falls don't bring partners down too much.

In the end, you might choose to encourage people to go on to somewhat more advanced techniques, but you need to start low to recruit the land dancers.

As a complete aside, a club in Delaware already recruits hockey skaters to come ice dance with them, though I don't know what kind of lessons they offer. That helps with the complete beginner problem, and also the gender ratio.

>I don't think there is any efficiency to using the
>toe-pick, unless you are a beginner who does not
>know how to use edges properly.
>If there was, you'd see some sort of rake on
>speed skates and hockey skates

You are probably right, though my coach keeps calling me on them in crossovers. Perhaps I should have said the toe area.

I think good speed and hockey skaters often roll through the whole length of their blades to go fast, but don't really know.

[fsk8r]

With regards to the discussion on ice dance. At the rink here in the UK we have dance club one night of the week followed by public. Included in the public session is a 15min ice dance interval. The dances are called according to the music, so there will be a hard one and an easy alternative (normally a forward only dance). Everyone is encouraged onto the ice, and the one coach working that night has been known to take three lads around to teach them a dance when they could barely stand up.
The rule of dance club (and therefore the dance interval) is that you dance with whoever asks you and you're not meant to dance having turned someone down for that one. And you can go solo if you don't have a partner.
A lot of people have learnt to dance this way, as they ask a better skater to teach them the dance. Over a few weeks they'll eventually learn the dance (unless they're really quick learners!). But they always end on the Prelim Foxtrot which is only progressive, swing around the rink on any size lobe you like. And then they pause the music halfway and you move forward to the next partner. Means that you can move from a weak skater to a stronger one and get a different feel for the dance. This dance is sufficiently easy, that a lot of people get to join in even when they can't do the harder dances.
We all go around doing the same dance at the same time, but we're all a bar or two behind each other. Sometimes we have little collisions but it's part of the fun.
Unfortunately, to really be able to pick the dances up, you do need a relative amount of skating so there's no one doing it I would call a real beginner, but there are people who aren't much beyond beginners who join in.

[jskater49]

I actually started learning to do the dutch waltz as soon as I could do edges -in an adult group class. It probably didn't resemble anything close to the Dutch Waltz, but it was a good way to work on edges.

j

[Mrs Redboots]

Well it's all relative but I don't think of myself as a beginner, but I use a snowplow stop unless I'm trying to be pretty. That's the stop I see just about every skater use if they want to stop in a hurry and don't care how it looks. So what stop do you think non-beginners use? And I don't particulary want to spin when I stop, so I'm not using your stop either.

Most of the more advanced skaters I see use some kind of one-footed stop - not sure if it's snowplough or hockey stop - if they are in a hurry. One of the things I most admired about the Russian All Stars was that they could skate on that tiny little stage (an ordinary theatre) and stop on a sixpence!

Heh, I often use the snowplow stop even when I am trying to be pretty. I can definitely look nicer doing that than any other stop.Ditto! Anyway, what are the barriers for??? ;)

T
That’s what adult competitions are, but you have to be pretty good to be able to go. I think most beginner adults would be too self-conscious at lower levels.Oh, I don't think I agree with you - I've seen lots of adult beginners (and been one!) having enormous fun out there - no hope of coming anywhere other than last (and even after all these years, Not Coming Last is a rare and precious experience for us!), but still having enormous fun. But obviously you need to be well up the L-T-S levels to get even that far.

7. Some sort of low level ice dancing could be a lot of fun, if done socially, like ballroom dance usually is. (I've complained elsewhere that ice dancing in my geographic area is taken so seriously and competitively that people only dance with their coaches or the partners the coaches assign. That isn't true all places.) No, and it's unfortunate that you live in an area where it is true! Here in the UK, social dancing is a huge part of the adult recreational scene - many skaters happily skate in ad hoc partnerships in the Recreational Ice Dance League who wouldn't dream of going to an Open! And many rinks have a weekly or monthly dance club that is largely populated by adult skaters, some of whom never compete at all. Our rink doesn't have the 15-minute dance intervals on public sessions that some rinks do - we used to, but haven't for about 10 years - but they are very useful in introducing beginners to ice dance.

[Clarice]

For many of our low level adults, the fun part is synchro. Our Open Adult team is up to 9 members this year. The most advanced are me at Silver level and a woman who skated as a child. None of the others have taken any tests, although one is a former roller skater and competed in that. We tailor our routines to the skills they have, adding something that's a little challenging each time. For the holiday show, for instance, we still can't do crossovers in a line, but we've added a mohawk to our block footwork. The beginners find it very challenging, the more advanced skaters are still challenged by the need to synchronize everything, and everybody is having a great time. We self-choreograph, so the more advanced skaters have fun with that as well. I think many adult beginners might find synchro more accessible than dance - it's amazing what you can do with even very, very basic moves. We began 3 years ago with a group of just 4, but more adults are starting to join us as an addition to their group class and find it's a fun way to work on their skills.

[CanadianAdult]

I did say that it still needs to be fun for adults, but what games would you play?


We've played soccer (football) on the ice, our class didn't have any raw beginners in it. We also play - oh I forget the name - the game where you have to skate from one end to the other without being caught by someone in the middle, eventually everyone is in the middle and you have to get past them without being touched. I can't believe I can't remember the name!!

We also have more adult terms for certain things. For dips/swizzles/lemons/bubbles/2 foot sculling (pick a name), instead of bend knees and down and up, or sit in a chair, we talk about the sexual advantages of having strong inner thighs....... probably because there's no men in the group.

We also play at a low level the add-on game. Start with a swizzle, I add a jump, someone else adds a turn, you have to do all the elements before you can add one. We also do it down the ice as a group, making it a sequence.


And to add, for stops, generally I try to teach to a one foot snowplow. Adults especially have one stronger side than another, since it's important to stop, I go for the dominant side. Once they get that we can clean it up into either a T or a hockey or a true 2 footed snowplow. I had that same problem when I used to teach downhill skiing. Kids did not have dominant sides, but adults did, and it's really hard to get down the mountain when you can only do right sided snowplow turns!

[fsk8r]

[QUOTE=CanadianAdult;344164] We also play - oh I forget the name - the game where you have to skate from one end to the other without being caught by someone in the middle, eventually everyone is in the middle and you have to get past them without being touched. I can't believe I can't remember the name!!


In the UK it's bulldog, and we play it quite often on games night at club ice. Generally the two coaches will start in the middle and target the good skaters on the first run as it gives the weaker ones more of a chance, but it's good fun.

[singerskates]

[QUOTE=CanadianAdult;344164] We also play - oh I forget the name - the game where you have to skate from one end to the other without being caught by someone in the middle, eventually everyone is in the middle and you have to get past them without being touched. I can't believe I can't remember the name!!


In the UK it's bulldog, and we play it quite often on games night at club ice. Generally the two coaches will start in the middle and target the good skaters on the first run as it gives the weaker ones more of a chance, but it's good fun.


I already mentioned the name of the game as being "Blob". You start out with two skaters as the Blob and then when someone is touched by either skater being the Blob, the skater who was touched by the Blob goes in the middle and becomes part of the Blob until no skaters are left to become the Blob.

[CanadianAdult]

In the UK it's bulldog, and we play it quite often on games night at club ice. Generally the two coaches will start in the middle and target the good skaters on the first run as it gives the weaker ones more of a chance, but it's good fun.

Aaah yes that's it! We call it British Bulldog !

[Query]

Let me suggest some games and pseudo-games that people play with both kids and adults. Most aren't new ideas, or mine at all - others already use them, in one context or another. Let me be clear - I haven't tried them in "my" classes.

A roller rink near me plays Limbo during part of public sessions, where you skate under a bar, without falling or touching a hand to the ice, or knocking the bar off it's supports. Adults try too, though they have to compete against the shorter kids at that rink. The winner gets something free from the snack bar.

They also do a non-competitive thing where you copy someone doing correspondent things to the words and music of "You put your right foot in..." A small, more or less in-place unpartnered dance routine.

One local ice dance coach's group lessons include weird little moves to challenge people, like heel pivots, 3 turns with crossed feet. He also does standard moves with choreographed upper body positions - e.g., raising an arm while doing a chase. And he does short move sequences, also with choreography.

Some move sequences are part of standard ISI and USFSA classes and tests, but they are long enough that a lot of the problem for many adults is memorizing them. Copying the shorter sequences during the lesson is less of a problem.

I notice a lot of coaches do them.

Another group lesson coach did a neat short choreographed sequence involving waltz jumps on alternate feet, with one step in between - in front of the body rather than behind - very challenging for some of us, but fun to try.

There are a few coaches who do absolutely gorgeous body pose choreography, not just for the advanced private students, but for all their private and group students. It breaks up the monotony. And it looks cool.

Maybe the common practice of restricting group lessons to a very set patterns of moves is less fun than doing some choreography.

I guess that is what ice theater is, but this is in the context of more standard technique classes.

I once took a course for aerobics instructors. A significant part of the course was learning to do your own choreography - emphasizing things like what is easy to remember, what moves flow together, how to "call" sequences so your students don't have to remember the whole dance sequence, appropriate music, remembering to switch "left" and "right" calls cuz you are facing them (sounds trivial, until you try it). It was a lot of fun. I think a lot of students would enjoy doing that sort of thing at a less elaborate level. If each student has a chance to come up with a few short routines to teach the other students. It would be very important to tell students not to be critical of other student's ideas. And because of the learning styles thing, I think it would work best in a class of a similar age group.

I think a lot of coaches don't realize how much fun coming up with your own moves and sequences is, even for the less advanced students.

There is an obvious problem with this idea - they pretty much would have to spend time outside class to invent and practice the routine - something most group lesson students don't do. Hopefully most adults DO spend time skating outside class.

Possibly you could make it a group design thing. Let each kid improvise and demonstrate a short change to a sequence designed by the instructor or another student. Allow choreography, not just move sequences.

Very very important: let those who want to opt out. This shouldn't be like what school teachers do where they force a slow student to try to answer a question, it should be fun.

Would letting students come up with costumes be fun for students? I don't mean fancy stuff involving sewing or buying expensive stuff. I mean wearing weird hats or mismatching colors and stuff. I think both kids and adults could enjoy this sort of thing, up to a point. But again, you must be able to opt out, because dignity is very important to some people.

For some of these ideas, some small prize ($1 at the snack bar?) would help - let the student's vote on the winner.

I'm not sure if these are along the line of what people mean by games, but they can be fun.

Hmmm. I like the student and group design ideas so much I'm going to try it with the kids. There is sometimes time left over at the end of class, and this could be interesting.

[Query]

For some of these ideas, some small prize ($1 at the snack bar?) would help - let the student's vote on the winner.


Oh wait. I don't want to threaten the student's amateur status.