Why do skates have high heels?

[Query]

Is it pure aesthetics, or is there a good reason? Do we need elevated heels at all? Why do ice dance boots have especially high heels?

Hockey and speed skates, presumably designed to be practical, have lower heels, or none.

My coach gave a half-hearted explanation, but made it clear she had her doubts.

A lot of walking shoes don't have significant heels, or have none. Some people claim we would be healthier if shoes imitated barefoot walking and running, pointing to altered heel strike and weight shift patterns (perhaps in skating it accentuates the rockover from outside to inside edge, making forward strokes stronger?), shortened achiles, arch support issues, the success of some people who trained barefoot in long distance running events, etc. I honestly don't know, but it seems pretty wierd, especially for those of us who are guys.

[BatikatII]

I have no idea of the real reason but would guess that it actually helps with knee bend and some positions

e.g try this.

In bare feet squat down as low as you can go keeping feet flat on the floor - see how your back comes forward to keep balanced. Now try moving forward on to balls of feet letting heels come off the ground (as they would if you had heels on). Notice how you can now get your thighs parellel to the floor and back straight quite easily.

Think of a sit spin and you'll see why it's easier in skates with a heel!:D

[Sessy]

I don't know, but dancing shoes have heels as well - even for men they are about 1 inch in height, but sometimes as much as 2! Ladies' heels tend to be around 3-3,5 inch there, although you can get them as low as 2 inch (usually for ladies dancing with a short partner)
Frankly, I've tried dancing on flat-heeled shoes once and it didn't go well. I wasn't able to get a proper pushoff with the heel on certain moments where with heels I could, and somehow it was much harder to get the proper position on the tango - I would guess this is because the tango has more kneebend than the other dances. The only thing that was made easier without heels was the heelturn in the slowfox, LOL! Also, latin dancers do practice on socks sometimes, but then they don't put their heels down. They dance purely on the ball of the foot.

Much of the same movement types as in ballroom, happen in figure skating as well. For example, a lot of the strength on the back crossovers is coming from the last bit of the push, at almost maximum extension of the leg, I think the heel helps the pushing there (because in dancing you can still step "over your heel" but you can't do that with blades). So I think the reason is probably practical. I can also imagine that it helps to actually jump off the toe instead of off the heel and that it indeed helps with the kneebend.

Another thing is that I wouldn't be surprised if it has something to do with tendons and jumpyness. In certain jumpy steps in the quickstep you're entirely on your toes. You'd never be able to dance it that quickly, and lightfooted, if your heel came down on the ground, if you needed to jump up from the heel. I think the tendons are shorter if you're on heels or something like that. Correct me if I'm wrong!

[Tessie]

I went to ask.com and found this link. If you scroll down to figure skate section, it explains that back in the day, the heel was necessary to afix the blade so it wouldn't go through the boot.

http://www.iceskatesmuseum.com/museum-e/e-disc-kunst.htm

[dooobedooo]

I have no idea of the real reason but would guess that it actually helps with knee bend and some positions ...

ITA. Thought about this independently and came to same conclusion. Helps with knee bend, as you need less ankle flex to achieve the same amount of knee bend. Also, most spins are done on ball of foot and this makes heel of skate less likely to catch.

[Rusty Blades]

A friend of mine (an engineer) researched the history of figure skates (and skates in general) and apparently the early skates were simply blades mounted on a walking boot - mid-1800's I believe - and the fashion of boots at that time was the high heel so the skates got high heels. Fashions changed and walking boots changed but by then the high heel skating boot had become tradition.

Look at the footware in most every other sport that involves running, walking, jumping, etc. and there is little if any heel but figure skating is all about tradition and has never moved toward high-performance footware - otherwise we would be wearing molded fiberglass boots with bindings like ski boots! They would weigh a faction as much and provide mobility and support in the appropriate directions.

[doubletoe]

In figure skating, you almost always want your weight on the ball of the foot for balance and control, and having the heel raised helps keep you on the ball of the foot. I'm not sure if that was the original reason why the heel was raised, but I would imagine that is why they continue to make them that way now.

[Isk8NYC]

I went to a skate tech presentation about skate recommendations and there was a big discussion among the coaches about heel height. Most coaches like the higher heel of Jackson vs. Riedell because of the impact on spins.

I never thought about it - maybe that's part of the figure-skating reluctance for men. They don't want to wear high heels.

I'm not buying into the 'ski technology' in skating just yet. I've seen too many bad skates made out of plastic that restricted movement. I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude with the high-end hinged plastic boots.

[Award]

*snip*....Look at the footware in most every other sport that involves running, walking, jumping, etc. *snip*

I agree with that. I once had a look at history of ice skates too, and there were some parts that mentioned that it's a traditional thing in the way that the skates have maintained more or less a similar look throughout time. They could have gone down a different path in terms of looks etc, but it seems that preserving the general appearance of the traditional figure skate is important in figure skating.

[climacus]

I think it was mainly an aesthetic thing. Think about how high heels accentuate the women's body by making the legs look longer and the back straighter, figure skates have the same effect on the skater. The techniques came later and developed around the heels.

The axel was named after a speedskater! No heels there..

[flippet]

I think it was mainly an aesthetic thing. Think about how high heels accentuate the women's body by making the legs look longer and the back straighter, figure skates have the same effect on the skater.


But that assumes that figure skating was always a women's sport. Not so.

When skating first really came into vogue, it was more for men...or at least equal.

[doubletoe]

Look at the footware in most every other sport that involves running, walking, jumping, etc. and there is little if any heel but figure skating is all about tradition and has never moved toward high-performance footware

I agree that the figure skating world has not embraced new footwear as quickly as other sports, but I don't think that is the reason for the heel height. The other footwear you are referring to is for sports where there is not nearly the same requirement for ankle support. As a result, the ankle bend is not restricted in these sports shoes and the athlete can get the knee over the toes and the weight onto the ball of the foot without having the heel raised. If figure skates didn't need to be so stiff to support the ankles, it would be easier to get a deep knee bend in them and maybe the heels could be lower. Hinged boots can change that, of course, but I'm guessing they will continue to have a heel on them because the higher heel also keeps skaters from getting their weight so far back that the skate slips out from under them and they fall backwards on their heads.

[Query]

Cool. You folks have really thought this through.

Most of the other sports are judged aesthetically, and don't place a priority on keeping the back upright, so it makes sense they go for safer and more efficient footwear.

Ballet has also kept traditional footwear, and does favor upright backs, yet doesn't have high heels. But ankles aren't constrained by ballet slippers. I doubt ballerinas and whatever you call male ballet dancers would claim ballet slippers were designed to be practical or safe either.

So I guess it makes sense. Sort of.

>...The other footwear you are referring to is for
>sports where there is not nearly the same
>requirement for ankle support. As a result, the
>ankle bend is not restricted in these sports shoes...
>Hinged boots can change that, of course, but I'm
>guessing they will continue to have a heel on
>them because the higher heel also keeps skaters
>from getting their weight so far back that the
>skate slips out from under them and they fall
>backwards on their heads.

I proposed in another thread

http://skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=24913

that we get boots with adjustable ranges of motion and resistance, covered with a thin outer leather boot for appearances. That should solve all such problems, and let us get rid of the silly high heels. The outer layer could make it look like we still have high heels.

[Skittl1321]

Ballet has also kept traditional footwear, and does favor upright backs, yet doesn't have high heels. But ankles aren't constrained by ballet slippers. I doubt ballerinas and whatever you call male ballet dancers would claim ballet slippers were designed to be practical or safe either.



Traditional ballet footwear is being challenged by a company that makes a more "plastic" shoe rather than a "paper machie" type pointe shoe. They LOOK different on the feet- so lots of people don't like them. They also sound different on the stage. The benefit- they seem to last about 5x as long as a traditional pointe shoe. (Look up Gaynor Minden if you are interested)

As for a heel on the skate- I figured it had something to do with the blade. When I stand in my skates it FEELS like my foot is flat. When I stand in regular high heels it feels like my foot is at an angle. Why does the heel in the boot not distort the angle of the foot like every other pair of heeled boots or shoes I own?

[Award]

As for a heel on the skate- I figured it had something to do with the blade. When I stand in my skates it FEELS like my foot is flat. When I stand in regular high heels it feels like my foot is at an angle. Why does the heel in the boot not distort the angle of the foot like every other pair of heeled boots or shoes I own?

Not sure why that is so. Kind of hard to explain there. I think that most people feel the slope due to the heel.

[Rusty Blades]

If figure skates didn't need to be so stiff to support the ankles, it would be easier to get a deep knee bend in them and maybe the heels could be lower. Hinged boots can change that, of course, but I'm guessing they will continue to have a heel on them because the higher heel also keeps skaters from getting their weight so far back that the skate slips out from under them and they fall backwards on their heads.

I have been in Jackson ProFlex since May and I LOVE them - there are many things I can do in ProFlex that I could not do in stiff boots (like a sit spin) that I can now do because I can get as much knee-bend as I want. The hinge allows mobility while providing ankle support. (My sprained ankle did not heal properly for 6 months because I continued skating. As soon as I switched to hinged boots, it had a chance to heal.)

[dbny]

It's very difficult to spin in a boot with no heel. Just because Axel Paulsen invented the eponymous jump does not mean he was able to execute it in anything like the way figure skates with heels and figure blades make possible.

[Award]

It's very difficult to spin in a boot with no heel.

No no no....it's not very difficult at all to spin with boots with no heel. That's not much of an issue with spinning with no heel. I even saw one guy a few years ago doing a camel in a recreational skate .....it wasn't a hockey skate, but was along the same lines as that style. It didn't have heels.

[tidesong]

I just went from a higher heel (risport) to lower (reidell) and my spins surprisingly don't seem to have changed very much. It would be interesting to try it on a almost no heel as well.

[Sessy]

Were you tying up your Risports all the way up? Because Risport ties up very high, inhibiting ankle flex more than other skates. So it needs that higher heel to compensate.

[dbny]

I even saw one guy a few years ago doing a camel in a recreational skate .....it wasn't a hockey skate, but was along the same lines as that style. It didn't have heels.

And I saw an elite level skater turned coach do a huge Axel in plastic rental skates. The fact that we saw someone do something in bad equipment, does not mean it's not more difficult than in good equipment.

[Query]

No no no....it's not very difficult at all to spin with boots with no heel. That's not much of an issue with spinning with no heel. I even saw one guy a few years ago doing a camel in a recreational skate .....it wasn't a hockey skate, but was along the same lines as that style. It didn't have heels.

My very modest spins aren't well centered even on figure skates, but I've spun a little in rental hockey skates. So do some hockey kids whose parents make them come to a local rink's LTS figure program.

I don't think the smaller hockey heel is a big issue spinning - it means I don't have to stretch to move towards the toe. Because I'm not used to hockey skates, the sweet spots are nearer the ends, and there is no toe pick to limit motion, and the rental skates had very wide heels, balance was the dominant problem for me while spinning.

Traditional ballet footwear is being challenged by a company that makes a more "plastic" shoe rather than a "paper machie" type pointe shoe...(Look up Gaynor Minden if you are interested)

When I stand in my skates it FEELS like my foot is flat.

Looked up the Gaynor Minden web page. OK. I didn't know enough about ballet to realize some pointe shoes have heels, and pretty extreme ones at that. Even those Gaynor Minden shoes don't look like they provide much ankle support. I guess ballet dancers must work pretty hard at conditioning their feet.

As a guy with limited muscle flexibility, I do not feel flat in figure skates, and the heel makes it a dificult stretch to get fully onto the toe pick for those moves that require it. But I guess the point about making it easier to lift the skate off the ice at the rear without touching the toe pick makes some sense.

I'm just not made for this sport. Where can I order a more flexible body?

[Skittl1321]

OK. I didn't know enough about ballet to realize some pointe shoes have heels, and pretty extreme ones at that. Even those Gaynor Minden shoes don't look like they provide much ankle support. I guess ballet dancers must work pretty hard at conditioning their feet.

I'm just not made for this sport. Where can I order a more flexible body?

Pointe shoes do not have heels, the bend you are seeing is due to the arch of the dancers foot. If you are not "en pointe" your foot will be flat on the ground. Dancers do work extremely hard on conditioning their feet and ankles. To some extent the ribbons provide a small amount of support to the ankle, while also holding the shoe on. Most dancers now use elastics to old the shoe on, and the ribbons are just there for the extra support and for looks. (It is totally possible to eschew the ribbons if you have the foot/ankle strength to dance without them).

Before the french revolution, however, ballet shoes did have a heel.


If you find out where to order a more flexible body- I'd like to know. I'd love one too! (Though, thankfully, my ankles are in fine shape for figure skating. They are what made me leave ballet though :( )

[doubletoe]

I just went from a higher heel (risport) to lower (reidell) and my spins surprisingly don't seem to have changed very much. It would be interesting to try it on a almost no heel as well.

Come to think of it, on spins, you're going to lift up your heel and balance completely on the ball of the blade anyway, so it might not matter how high the heel is. However, if you are doing back cross rolls (crossing behind and pushing back with the front foot, like on the Adult Silver MIF test), I would imagine a low heel would make it awfully dangerous. Heck, years ago I managed to fall back and hit the back of my head on those even with the high heel! :o

[Isk8NYC]

Much of ice skating is done on the center/front of the blade. Spins are the obvious, but edge jumps are rolled up off the rocker to the toe, turns are done center-to-front and back again. To strike an edge you have to use the curved part of the blade, even crossovers rely on the center/front of the blade.

Other than flats, I can't think of anything that uses the heel of the blade. Maybe back one-foot turns, like 3's and brackets? I do know that, if you glide too far back on the heel -- you're on your tush! Now, Michael Weiss has discovered a creative use for the blade tails. How about dance moves?

Let's ask the question a different way - for what do we use the heel part of our blades? Why would we need a flat skate with no heel?

[Skittl1321]

Let's ask the question a different way - for what do we use the heel part of our blades? Why would we need a flat skate with no heel?

An excellent point! Although I still cannot feel any sort of angle to my foot in my skates (really- I went and put them back on after saying that the first time. I can SEE a heel- so obviously there must be some angle, but my foot feels like it is level in the skate. The boots I'm wearing now, I can feel that there is a grade between my toe and heel) , I imagine if they were truly flat, we'd have to spend a lot more energy lifting up into the right position so that our weight was moved to the middle.

At least I tend to put about 99% of my walking weight on my heel (I sound like an elephant when I walk on stairs and i'm a light girl)- so to shift the weight from flat off of my heel would require me to essentially skate like i'm walking on my tip toes.

[GordonSk8erBoi]

I have been in Jackson ProFlex since May and I LOVE them - there are many things I can do in ProFlex that I could not do in stiff boots (like a sit spin) that I can now do because I can get as much knee-bend as I want. The hinge allows mobility while providing ankle support. (My sprained ankle did not heal properly for 6 months because I continued skating. As soon as I switched to hinged boots, it had a chance to heal.)

I saw a pair of these up in Seattle a couple of weeks ago. Interesting design, but the boots had a (very annoying) squeak!

[Sessy]

Yes but before the French revolution, ballet was more of a corps de ballet formation dance group kind of thing than the modern-day ballet with prima ballerina's we think of when we say ballet. I think? I don't think there was much jumping in it back then.
I also doubt you can compare ballet dancing shoes to skates. Ballet dancing shoes need extremely flexible soles - just like latin dance shoes do. In a figure skate, flexible soles would be a bit of an abomination, considering the blades don't bend.


I wonder if the heel is why back 3's are more difficult than forward 3's?

BTW Yuri Bureiko skates on some sort of... Well I'm not sure how to describe it. The back of his blade curls up sharply (not at 90 degrees though) at the back and continues to go upwards for about an inch. So he can do sort of ina bauer-type things except with his toes pointing in the air. Looks a bit like stunt inline skating. But even he has heels under his skates.

[Skittl1321]

BTW Yuri Bureiko skates on some sort of... Well I'm not sure how to describe it. The back of his blade curls up sharply (not at 90 degrees though) at the back and continues to go upwards for about an inch. So he can do sort of ina bauer-type things except with his toes pointing in the air. Looks a bit like stunt inline skating. But even he has heels under his skates.

Is it this blade- http://www.johnwatts.force9.co.uk/freedom.htm Michael Weiss has used them extensively in the US. This is another blade that does that- http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/02/olympic_gear/source/3.htm

(BTW- I mentioned pointe shoes just as another "tradition" based sport/art where change is slow. I mentioned it as a "but there is another option" that some people do not like... not as in comparision to skating materials. As skaters we shun the idea of a plasticky boot, and many in ballet do too- but there is a "modern technology" shoe out there, and it is gaining ground. In a way- it's like the paramount blades. When they first came out it was a "it's never going to work" and now they are all over the place. But they do give a different feeling to the performance on the ice (not just color, just the shape/sound of the blade) so some people still have their doubts about the blade)

[Award]

And I saw an elite level skater turned coach do a huge Axel in plastic rental skates. The fact that we saw someone do something in bad equipment, does not mean it's not more difficult than in good equipment.

That is true what you said. I was just responding to what you wrote, about....'It's very difficult to spin in a boot with no heel'. I just said it is not very difficult to spin without heels. I just think that as long as there's adequate ankle support, then you can spin easily without heels.

[Isk8NYC]

Is it this blade- http://www.johnwatts.force9.co.uk/freedom.htm Michael Weiss has used them extensively in the US. This is another blade that does that- http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/02/olympic_gear/source/3.htm
I really want a pair of those blades, but I'd be useless in them anyway. Maybe when I hit the lottery...

Thanks for the links, especially the Business Week piece - I hadn't read that article.

[Sessy]

Is it this blade- http://www.johnwatts.force9.co.uk/freedom.htm Michael Weiss has used them extensively in the US. This is another blade that does that- http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/02/olympic_gear/source/3.htm


Well, it does look like one of them. I think his is pictured in the second link, but I'm not sure.

[Derek]

Yes but before the French revolution, ballet was BTW Yuri Bureiko skates on some sort of... Well I'm not sure how to describe it. The back of his blade curls up sharply (not at 90 degrees though) at the back and continues to go upwards for about an inch. So he can do sort of ina bauer-type things except with his toes pointing in the air. Looks a bit like stunt inline skating. But even he has heels under his skates.

Is this the same Yuri who is Director of the ISS in Coventry? He was on the ice just before me this morning, I must pay more attention !

[doubletoe]

Well, it does look like one of them. I think his is pictured in the second link, but I'm not sure.

There's also Michael Weiss' "Freedom Blades" but I don't think they are making them anymore. . .
http://www.michaelweiss.org/photos/newweiss8.gif
http://www.michaelweiss.org/photos/patinage.gif

[dbny]

I just think that as long as there's adequate ankle support, then you can spin easily without heels.

If you don't have a heel, you must exert more effort to get up on the spin spot at the front of the blade.

[Award]

If you don't have a heel, you must exert more effort to get up on the spin spot at the front of the blade.

Yeah.....but I'm going back to the original comment of whether it's 'very difficult' to spin without heels, or not. And it is not very difficult at all to spin without heels. There may be a small difference in effort required, and difference in feel, but certainly is not very difficult to spin without heels.

[Isk8NYC]

There's also Michael Weiss' "Freedom Blades" but I don't think they are making them anymore. . .
http://www.michaelweiss.org/photos/newweiss8.gif
http://www.michaelweiss.org/photos/patinage.gif
My BFF's DD is in a class with Michael Weiss' DD. For my birthday this year, she gave me a closeup of the first photo autographed by the man himself. She says he's really, really nice and funny. (Whenever we watch skating, my twins ask if every dark-haired male skater is "the guy with the cool skates.")

But back to my question: other than the heelie-spreadeagle, what else do we figure skaters use our heels for when skating?
I came up with one more: heel pivots; I put them in a boy's skating program a year or so ago. Still, it's not really skating on the blade - it just uses the heel point.

What use would flat heels be for figure skaters?

[Isk8NYC]

Although I still cannot feel any sort of angle to my foot in my skates (really- I went and put them back on after saying that the first time. I can SEE a heel- so obviously there must be some angle, but my foot feels like it is level in the skate.I just made a Klingbeil appt for Thursday morning, so I was thinking about the final fitting for newly-made custom skates. One of the first steps is to try the boots on without the blades and I can remember feeling like Herman Munster in these stiff-soled platform boots. The "feel the heel" discovery went away once the blades were mounted and I put the skates on again. Perhaps the reason we don't notice the heel height as much is because of the side-to-side balancing of the blades or the pivot points where the stanchions attach to the soleplate?

[Skittl1321]

What use would flat heels be for figure skaters?

The ice dancers article says they use them to be able to skate in full splits.
It seems like partner/pairs would have more possibilities of supported positions.

It also seems like you'd be able to do an array of gliding motions (i'm thining a spiral with the leg in the front, leaning back- normally causing you to fall on the back of your head) or spins that wouldn't be allowed on normal blades- but because no points would be awarded for these in the new system (where things are all about assigned points and don't reward new discoveries outside of the system) there isn't a lot of motivation for discovery for new technique. Heel spread eagles are novelty enough for show skating- maybe give it time and things will be created with it?

[coskater64]

Hmmm I don't really like those blades, definitely not for free skate, even though Micheal Weiss used them. Sort of blah to me. Anyway higher heels help with knee bend I used a 2 1/4" heel and found it helpful, but when I changed over to the Jackson proflex it was a 1 3/4" heel not a huge difference but noteable. LIke doubletoe said most of my weight is in the ball of my foot I very rarely go back to the heel, your not supposed to skate their. I mean really how often do you hear your coach yell lean back!!?? Unless you are just leaning to far forward, then you trip over your toepicks, where else do you have to go but the ball of your foot???


:evil: :evil:

[Sessy]

Is this the same Yuri who is Director of the ISS in Coventry? He was on the ice just before me this morning, I must pay more attention !

This guy:
http://www.internationalschoolofskating.co.uk/pics/Coaches/YuriFade.jpg
He had the cool blades in summercamp. If he's changed them in for normal ones I'm gonna pout, they looked so cool!

[SkatingOnClouds]

I saw a pair of these up in Seattle a couple of weeks ago. Interesting design, but the boots had a (very annoying) squeak!

yeah, my coach has these, and hers have developed the squeak. It is caused by leather rubbing against leather as they flex. Once they get a bit broken in and the ankle part can be pulled in tighter, seems they sound like a horse's saddle. I have seriously been considering a pair, for the afore-mentioned knee bend possibilities, but the sound is rather off-putting.

[Award]

yeah, my coach has these, and hers have developed the squeak. It is caused by leather rubbing against leather as they flex.

Maybe could try a teeny bit of non-staining silicone spray. The squeak might disappear.

[Derek]

This guy:
http://www.internationalschoolofskating.co.uk/pics/Coaches/YuriFade.jpg


Yes, that's him. I must try and get a look at his blades next time I see him ...

[BatikatII]

I would think the heel on the boot helps also with extension and aids the look skaters are aiming for. (speed skaters and hockey players don't care what they look like when skating!). I don't think the heels on most boots are high enough to be that noticeable when you put them on but I think you would notice if you didn't have a heel. You would need even more flexion at the ankle to get good extension which is made difficult because of the stiff back of the boot (hence why some dance boots have a cut out at back of course). It would make getting good kneebend more of a strain on the backs of the calves too.

I come back to my sit spin example though. You don't need much of a heel to make all the difference. About an inch or two is enough. If you have no heel then your weight is forced right back (in sit position) and to get on the ball of the blade to spin you need to lift your heel if you want to stay with good posture in the sit position. That's hard in a stiff boot with absolutely no heel. The 1 or 2 inch skating heel just fills the gap that makes all the difference.

I can squat right down and get good position with my feet right on my tiptoes or lowering heels all the way down to just about 1.5" off the floor - but the last inch or so is the killer. When I put my heels down flat my weight tips right back. The closer your heel is to the flat position the more you have to counterbalance with your upper body forward and the more strain there is and less attractive position.

Son used to skate in Risports which he loved as they have probably the highest heel of any of the brands. Daughter never got on with the Reidells she had, with their lower heels.

The Freedom Blades were made by John Watts (company founded by ex-head coach of our rink (now in Chicago I think)) but company is now defunct and I haven't heard that anyone took on the freedom blade design so probably can't get them now.

Daughter uses the heel of her blades for a rather showy one foot heel stop!

OT I did a camp with Yuri in the summer too - it was good fun but hard work!

[dbny]

LIke doubletoe said most of my weight is in the ball of my foot I very rarely go back to the heel, your not supposed to skate their. I mean really how often do you hear your coach yell lean back!!?? Unless you are just leaning to far forward, then you trip over your toepicks, where else do you have to go but the ball of your foot???


When skating forwards, your weight is not on the ball of the foot, it is over the arch or just to the back part of the arch. If you watch advanced skaters carefully, when they are just skating forwards, not doing anything in particular, you will see a sort of extra push on one foot. It's a push from the heel, really a small power pull kind of push. Speaking of which, I defy anyone to do F power pulls on the balls of their feet. This is exactly what makes F power pulls hard to learn; you have to be to the back of the blade, where the slightest lean back can send you off the back of the blade and pretty much straight down. When skating backwards, you do have the weight on the ball of the foot.

[Sessy]

What about flexibility for spirals, does the heel help to stretch through the standing leg maybe?

BTW my teacher tells or told me to lean more back quite often: on the sit spin, on the crossovers , on backwards outside crossrolls, on spirals.

[Sessy]

I can squat right down and get good position with my feet right on my tiptoes or lowering heels all the way down to just about 1.5" off the floor - but the last inch or so is the killer. When I put my heels down flat my weight tips right back. The closer your heel is to the flat position the more you have to counterbalance with your upper body forward and the more strain there is and less attractive position.

A girl at our rink has the same problem. She's actually studying to be a sports teacher so at some point it became a problem for her (not in skating), and they found out eventually that some tendons or muscles or something she has in her legs are too short, and there's nothing you can do about it, it's genetical. It's impossible for her to squat with the heels on the ground.

[Query]

Pointe shoes do not have heels

I'll take your word that most don't. The Gaynor Minden web site does sell some with, and If you look up "pointe shoes" "high heels" on a search page, you will see lots of them, with stiletto-thin heels. They don't look good for escalators.

The back end of the skate is useful for some things:

Since switching from dance to freestyle blades, I've put lots of holes in my pants. Much harder to do in dance blades!

[BatikatII]

A girl at our rink has the same problem. She's actually studying to be a sports teacher so at some point it became a problem for her (not in skating), and they found out eventually that some tendons or muscles or something she has in her legs are too short, and there's nothing you can do about it, it's genetical. It's impossible for her to squat with the heels on the ground.

I wasn't meaning it as a problem. I can do it, but I think for everyone it is the same that the lower your heels are to the ground in a squatting position, the further forward your weight has to be to counterbalance, whatever the length of your tendons.:D :lol:

[TreSk8sAZ]

I'll take your word that most don't. The Gaynor Minden web site does sell some with, and If you look up "pointe shoes" "high heels" on a search page, you will see lots of them, with stiletto-thin heels. They don't look good for escalators.



Ummm...... I'm not really sure how to put this delicately, and I think plenty of the dancers on the board will agree with me. :giveup: The type of "high heels" Gaynor Minden sells refers to the amount of fabric on the heel, not actually having a heel put on the back of the pointe shoe. The pointe shoes dancers wear do NOT have heels, it would ruin the shape of the arch which is what professional dancers strive for.

The things that you pull up on search pages, that have like 7 inch stiletto heels, are made for "adult games" (I don't know how else to put it as there are children on this board). They are NOT used for ballet/professional dance, unless you happen to be in certain nightclubs that cater to that type of entertainment...:oops:

[Sessy]

Yeah, they're actually more like fashion, some folks in the gothic scene wear them, though there the boot is more like this:
http://users.powernet.co.uk/wingett/images/ballet/Ballet052front.jpg
Bit more masochistic than platform boots were I guess. Christina Aguilera (sp?) and Beyonce wore them apparently.
http://users.powernet.co.uk/wingett/images/ballet.jpg
http://urie.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/beyonce1741if7.jpg

You couldn't dance ballet on these if your life depended on it. I think jumping is pretty difficult on these as it is, let alone if you want to do it gracefully and not land with a loud thump like a cow. Besides a lot of the jumpyness is coming from the foot, which can't do its job in this kind of shoes.

[Award]

You couldn't dance ballet on these if your life depended on it.

Wow.....now that's what I call extreme shoes. With these things, would it be true that the toes of the foot are going to be doing a fair bit of supporting of the weight of the whole body? That's the most interesting shoe I've seen yet hahaha. The design appears to have achieved the point of ridiculousness hehehe (the toe pointing one that is hehe)

[Skittl1321]

Ummm...... I'm not really sure how to put this delicately, and I think plenty of the dancers on the board will agree with me. :giveup: The type of "high heels" Gaynor Minden sells refers to the amount of fabric on the heel, not actually having a heel put on the back of the pointe shoe.


Thanks :)

I originally decided not to reply as I didn't want to turn this to a pointe shoe discussion, when ballet is not the focus of the board- and an arguement over pointe shoes wouldn't be productive to the conversation. But you are right- heel height is how high the fabric goes over the heel.

I do wonder if the heel on the "goth" pointe shoes takes any of the weight. Because in ballet pointe shoes without a doubt your entire weight is supported on the toe, via the strength of your whole foot. I cannot imagine trying to stay in that position for an extended amount of time (an evening out?) So while I still imagine the "adult" shoe will do damage to your foot, I wonder if the heel makes it "easier" to stand?

[doubletoe]

All I can say is. . .HOLY CRAP. 8O

[Award]

Also, is there a reason why those ladies have their arms in the air? They're probably holding onto a bar or something, right? hahahaha

[TreSk8sAZ]

But, bringing the pointe shoe thing back to skating, even in ballet slippers, you raise the heel when you turn. I can't imagine being able to do a full turn on a flat foot as there's no point to turn on, too much would be moving. Whereas, in skating with the higher heel, you have a balance point to turn on. With a flat boot, I would think the rocker on the blades would have to be more extreme in order to turn properly, without the heel or toepick dragging and slowing you down.

[Award]

I just believe that the rocker on figure skates is adequate for turning and spinning - even without heels. If the heel is removed, it would just be a matter of getting used to the different configuration. I don't think it's necessary to raise the heel when turning......it is a matter of shifting weight to the relevant portion of the blade.

[GordonSk8erBoi]

I just believe that the rocker on figure skates is adequate for turning and spinning - even without heels. If the heel is removed, it would just be a matter of getting used to the different configuration. I don't think it's necessary to raise the heel when turning......it is a matter of shifting weight to the relevant portion of the blade.

Yes, but "shifting weight to the relevant portion of the blade", i.e. the rocker, WILL raise your heel.

[Award]

Yes, but "shifting weight to the relevant portion of the blade", i.e. the rocker, WILL raise your heel.

Consider this....on an outside edge, if you shift weight to the back of the blade, you will turn. And here, you don't even need to lift the heel at all. And, as for a front 3 turn, heels coming up a bit is a result of shifting weight to the front of the blade......not necessarily you deliberately lifting your heel. A subtle upward motion (beginning from slight knee bend) is enough. Basically, if you have a rocker, you will be able to turn - regardless of whether your boots have heels or not.

[Query]

Oh.

In retrospect I suppose letting a ballet shoe do the work for you would be cheating.

Prices being what they are, it's hard to experiment a lot with boots, heels, and blades. Too bad.

I've got roller and inline skates that don't have heels. Do most roller dance skates?

[hannahuk]

I'm just not made for this sport. Where can I order a more flexible body?

I don't know what everyone else thinks about this - but I feel yoga is very beneficial for increasing flexibility. I used to go a lot a while ago but stopped and have now returned to yoga classes to help loosen up some stiff muscles and also to improve my skating. It's very good for loosening up/strengthening leg muscles and strengthening core muscles. It also helps with balance!
There are some movements which are the same as you do in skating - crossing feet over, balancing etc.
In my class we do a stretch which is just like the drag, with your leg out behind and toes pointing out to the side!

I guess taking up ballet would also help as alot of the footwork is similar - but no chance of that for me! Tutu no way!
:roll:

[dbny]

Do most roller dance skates?

Yes. All that I ever saw had heels, including my own.

[Sessy]

I would think the rocker on the blades would have to be more extreme in order to turn properly, without the heel or toepick dragging and slowing you down.

Well, ice hockey skates do have a far rounder blade than figure skating skates do. Maybe that's why they don't need a heel on their skates.

[Sessy]

Mmmmm we have nice ballet lessons from the club. Once a week (but that's plenty, you can practice once more at home if you want) and with a Ukrainean coach, so he's very thorough. Also he has been teaching figure skaters for years and he knows what figure skaters need so he only keeps us busy with things that make sense to teach to a figure skater, and only to a degree that a figure skater would need it.

Big plus is that we have ballet in whatever we skate in, so no tutu's!

Dunno about the other people doing ballet, but I noticed a difference in my posture even off-ice on photos.

[dooobedooo]

....I've got roller and inline skates that don't have heels. Do most roller dance skates?

Just thought I'd thow this in ....

Shoes and boots for long distance walking and hiking are relatively firm to rigid, and have heels.

... whereas, shoes for day meets on orienteering and cross country are flexible and do not have heels.

If you stand sideways on a step in barefeet on one foot and let the other leg hang, most people's feet will take up a natural arch, the shape of which corresponds to a heeled shoe.

[Award]

I thought that the heel for hiking boots is for cushioning and also to create a thick enough barrier for protection against potentially sharp things etc on the ground, plus perhaps insulation too against hot ground.

[dooobedooo]

I thought that the heel for hiking boots is for cushioning and also to create a thick enough barrier for protection against potentially sharp things etc on the ground, plus perhaps insulation too against hot ground.

This doesn't explain the shape of the boot. Why isn't the sole higher?

[Query]

Shoes and boots for long distance walking and hiking are relatively firm to rigid, and have heels.

... whereas, shoes for day meets on orienteering and cross country are flexible and do not have heels.


Very general statements are never universally true.

(Like that one.)

(I remember so well an English teacher who commanded us in all seriousness to "Never use absolutes!")

A few hiking boots have no or even negative heels. For that matter, many hikers prefer sport hiking shoes that are slightly beefed up tennis shoes, or sandles - try your nearest outdoor store.

If you stand sideways on a step in barefeet on one foot and let the other leg hang, most people's feet will take up a natural arch, the shape of which corresponds to a heeled shoe.

How much has wearing shoes shaped according to current theory affected the shapes that feet, muscles and ligaments take?

Anyway, shouldn't you look at the way the foot walks barefoot, not the way it hangs in the air? I feel a lot more comfortable walking around the house barefoot than in shoes.

People who advocate training runners and walkers barefoot claim most foot problems are the long term result of those distortions. For example, the cushioning of the heel is centered, which may imply your heel strike is "meant" to be too, but wearing heeled shoes somehow more or less forces you to strike on the outside edge. (Somewhere around midstride you probably rock over onto the inside edge, then start to rock back out just before you lift off the toes.) Likewise for people with arch support and weak ankle issues, which I guess they try to explain as the result of using an elevated heel, or the result of letting a rigid support substitute for muscle/ligament use. They argue that heels reduce the time of impact between heel and midfoot strike, increasing shock damage. And that fungal and viral infections are the result of insufficient ventallation. (They ignore the cuts, bites, infections and parasites you get from walking outside barefoot.)

Some of the very best long distance runners walked and ran barefoot most of their lifes, and would compete that way if it was still allowed. Sprinters usually don't use their heels at all.

I just read books and web pages. I don't know enough to say who is right, or whether there is one right answer for everyone.

As you probably know, depending on whose books you read, there are 3 - 5 arches in the foot, not just one.

[Sessy]

I've always been much more comfortable walking on heels than I was without. In fact I had one pair of running shoes with barely no heels and I couldn't even walk fast in them, let alone run! And now that my ankle has cured at the front to the point I can wear heels again (because of the added stretch of those ligaments), I'm back on heels and comfortable walking for the first time in months.

I'm not sure how come, but I'm more comfortable on heels.

But I'll say one thing: the heels need to be *centered*, cheap shoes are usually not centered, even many of the expensive ones aren't.

[dooobedooo]

Very general statements are never universally true. (Like that one.) (I remember so well an English teacher who commanded us in all seriousness to "Never use absolutes!")

I stand corrected.

I will never say "the sky is blue" again.

Certainly not in this thread, anyway.

:giveup:

[Award]

This doesn't explain the shape of the boot. Why isn't the sole higher?

I think that's because in hiking, the foot is usually planted down heel first? Like most force on the heel each time the foot comes down onto the ground. Long distance jogging is like this too I think......so, many jogger-type shoes have a fair bit of cushioning under the rear of the boot.

[Query]

The body is adaptive.

It seems unlikely that people who have grown up wearing shoes could quickly change to bare feet or to shoes which mimick a benign bare foot environment without major league problems.

My feet aren't tough enough to go barefoot most places outside, and I stopped going barefoot in the yard after we found a "cow killer" wasp there. But I like low heels, and lightweight shoes. My skates are the exception, and I may change that.

You can find lots of web pages about running barefoot, but obviously far outside the "current standard of care" [medical science's substitute for the eternal truth] podiatrists are trained to.

For the curious, here is one of those many links:

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu9Ff6DVHfygB5FRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyMHBwM3F rBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMjIEY29sbwNhYzIEdnRpZAMEbANXUzE-/SIG=132s46754/EXP=1194801631/**http%3a//www.nwfootankle.com/Rossi%2520Articles/Feb01%2520p129-138%2520Ropdf.pdf

[doubletoe]

Well, ice hockey skates do have a far rounder blade than figure skating skates do. Maybe that's why they don't need a heel on their skates.

Actually, hockey skates have at least a 9' rocker, meaning they are flatter, not rounder than figure skate blades. But because they don't have a toepick, skaters in hockey skates can't afford to get their weight too far onto the front of the blade or they could roll over the front of the blade and fall forward. I'm guessing that might be one reason why they don't have a heel.

[Query]

I stand corrected.

>..."Never use absolutes!"

I will never say "the sky is blue" again.

Certainly not in this thread, anyway.

Outch. OK, I tend to be pedantic, even about things I know nothing about. Sorry!

I'm not sure how I let myself drift into the barefoot running thing. I don't really want to balance my bare foot on a knife edge while skating. I'm just questioning all the assumptions that led to my getting very heavy uncomfortable boots.

[Derek]

Yes, that's him. I must try and get a look at his blades next time I see him ...

I spoke to Yuri last night, and he showed me his blades ... the heel is cut away at 45 degrees, which I could see instantly would enable him to lean back ... he claims this 'pattern' is quite normal ...

[mandypants]

I just wanted to add a couple things... I've been a ballet dancer for a lot longer than figure skater and the Gaynor Minden pointe shoes are verrry controversial amongst dancers. I get all alarmed when I hear someone bring up the Gaynor topic because it can get so heated in certain circles. Some people say they are "cheater" shoes because the shoes may offer more support than traditional paste/paper shoes. The theory taught is that the dancer should do most of the work getting en pointe, not the shoe. Anyway, doubt we want to have a long conversation about that but from what I've observed in dance is that a lot of people were excited about the Gaynors when they first came on the market, but the frenzy died down a few years later and I know very few people who use them now.

Another thing about the pointe shoe ribbons is that they offer very little or no ankle support. They're present mainly to keep the heel from slipping off and the shoes properly aligned on the foot. Same goes for the elastic. The ribbons actually are very irritating to the achillies tendons and cause more trouble than they're worth sometimes. "Sansha" came up with a lace-up pointe shoe several years ago that didn't use ribbons. It looks like a satin sneaker really with a pointe like toe box and I found it great to dance in but it never seemed to catch on either. Whoa this is way off topic... sorry.

The weird ballet boots that someone posted a piccy of is a fetish ballet shoe or boot. There is practically nothing, aside from the Gaynor Minden controversy, that will ruffle the feathers of a dancer more than this kind of "ballet" shoe. I believe most of the weight is on the toes but the heel does offer some support. ****shudder**** lol

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it here yet but there used to be "figure skates" that looked like ballet slippers but they had blades attached. I have a picture of some at home but I'm at college so I can't show you right now but I was always amazed when looking at that, that anyone would be able to skate in a ballet shoe. Does anyone know what I'm referring to? The photo I have is in a very old skating show brochure. I just can't believe they would work but somewhere along the line someone must have gotten tired of the traditional figure skate or very creative and wanted to try something new, not unlike the pointe shoe "experiments" that I've talked a little about above.

I think maybe (and I'm a simpleton) the reason figure skates seem to be more ideal with a raised heel is that you can't rise up on the ball of your foot because of the restrictions of the boot and so the heel gives you that lift. I can't imagine trying to jump or do anything flat footed (without the heel) and have very much power. In dance, if you're going to leap, you really get the power to do that from the plie' (knee bend) and then the roll-thru in your foot from the heel to the ball. It's a very quick and smooth action but you'd get nowhere if your foot was encased and flat footed in something stiff such as a skate boot. So maybe somebody realized along the way it was beneficial to have a raised heel and that it wasn't just an accident. I don't know..

Query, I'm really intimidated by you, so please try to be kind in your reply. I'm just a freshman in college and not really that bright, lol. I'm just saying things from my experiences and trying to add some perspective since I dance and skate. In no way am I meaning to be argumentative, mmmmmk?

mandy

p.s. Another thing to add was that I went from SP Teris to Jackson skates and the first time wearing the Jacksons, I noticed the heel was a lot lower. It took quite a while to get used to that. I don't know if my heel was just sitting lower in the boot or if the heel was actually shorter but it put a lot of strain on my calves.

[Query]

Query, I'm really intimidated by you, so please try to be kind in your reply.

Ouch again!

You know a lot more than me.

[saras]

yeah, my coach has these, and hers have developed the squeak. It is caused by leather rubbing against leather as they flex. Once they get a bit broken in and the ankle part can be pulled in tighter, seems they sound like a horse's saddle. I have seriously been considering a pair, for the afore-mentioned knee bend possibilities, but the sound is rather off-putting.

oddly, mine only squeak rarely. Haven't figured out why/when they do. It's like once every few weeks they'll squeak. And it goes away once I have warmed up usually.

I adore the hinged boots. A few weeks ago, I skated in my old (non-hinged) boots that I haven't used in over a year. I could still skate in them (though the boot leather has stiffened and the tongues were curling in on top of my foot painfully), but I didn't like not being able to bend any more.

[saras]

When skating forwards, your weight is not on the ball of the foot, it is over the arch or just to the back part of the arch. If you watch advanced skaters carefully, when they are just skating forwards, not doing anything in particular, you will see a sort of extra push on one foot. It's a push from the heel, really a small power pull kind of push. Speaking of which, I defy anyone to do F power pulls on the balls of their feet. This is exactly what makes F power pulls hard to learn; you have to be to the back of the blade, where the slightest lean back can send you off the back of the blade and pretty much straight down. When skating backwards, you do have the weight on the ball of the foot.

Honestly, I think much of skating is learning fine-tuned control of where to skate on your blade for different things. It's really about learning control - and you teach yourself whether to be forward or more behind on the blade. There are times when you're on either - back three turns happen by going back to the heel of the blade. I think the high heel is probably there for historical reasons (first skates were attached to boots), and b/c of the "line" it creates - the look of extension. Functionally, I'm not convinced it helps. I had one pair of custom Harlick's made with a lower heel than usual - and *loved* it. I felt much more stable and like I was in charge of where I skated. I think the heels detract from control just like walking in high heels does - it's like you're operating up on the ball of your foot which is more teetery than on the flat of your foot. (I have since switched to Jackson hinged boots and love 'em even more for different reasons, so I'm no longer in Harlicks).

Anyway, to my knowledge no one has actually studied figure skating on flat boots - though I believe Elvis Stoiko really really wanted his boots made without a heel. Not sure how low he was able to get the boot though - boot companies resisted if I remember correctly.

[russiet]

Hockey skates do have a slight elevation of the heel over the ball of the foot. Not a high-heel, but the blade edge is definetly farther away from the heel of the foot than from the ball of the foot. Probably about 3/4" or maybe 1" higher.

Take a look at the hockey skate here: http://store.skate-buys.com/basu20icehos.html

See what I mean?

I don't have any hockey skates to look at anymore....I sold them last year. As a matter of fact I saw them on the ice just last month. I didn't recognize the the person I sold them to, but when I saw the skates it was like seeing an old friend.

[Sessy]

Haha I know what you mean. I sold my first pair of skates (ProStar) when I started skating in 2006: having skated on them twice a year for a few years and then like five more years collecting dust in the closet, they were in perfect condition, plus I used bootcovers which I sold with the skates.
Then this new girl at the rink shows up this season. She's a beginner, she's got the same model skates and from the looks of it, the same size too. And her mom goes on about how lucky they were to get used skates in such good condition pretty cheap from this other woman who'd just had them for very short and bought them second-hand too...

I don't know if they're actually my old skates or not but they just might be... :mrgreen:

Which is nowhere near as weird as my coach's daughter, who at the skate exchange afternoon discovered about a third of the club (beginners not counted) was skating in a pair of either her or her sister's old skates.