Changing Edge on Spirals

[SkatingOnClouds]

Okay, coach has decided I should wok on change edge spirals. From a recent talk by a judge about ISJ, I understand that I must not move my free leg, my arms, or visibly my body, and that there must be no flat of blade during the change. Sigh !

I've had a couple of goes, and can get my foot to change edge but not my body, it feels all twisted and fights against the edge. What I can do is change edge attitudes (not sure if they're called that in other countries; it's the free leg bent at the knee, thigh as parallel to the ice as you can get it, one arm over the head, the other out to the side or rounded in front).

These I can do easily, changing edge at will, outside to inside, inside to outside. I realised it is body position, I do attitudes with an open, side on sort of body position, whereas it appears my spirals have fairly square shoulders.

Any hints on change edge spirals? Is it easier to go inside to outside, or outside to inside?

[Mrs Redboots]

You want to talk to my husband, who is also working on these. I think outside to inside is much easier, it's the easier edge change when changing edge, if that makes sense, so I assume it's easier in a spiral. Certainly it's the one he's put in his programme, although today it ground to a halt after the change....

[patatty]

I always found inside-to-outside to be easier for me. If you concentrate on shifting your shoulders as you go through the change of edge, the rest of the body will follow. For example, if I'm starting on a right inside edge, my right shoulder is more forward than my left. As I change over to the right outside edge, I move my left shoulder more to the front. It doesn't have to be really pronounced, but it helps in steering and keeps you balanced. It also works for outside-to-inside spirals, as well as backward change of edge spirals (but you need an empty rink to work on these!)

[Muskoka Skater]

I completly agree with patatty. I also think that you shouldn't just work on one you should try them all to figure out which one is the easiest for you, it might be inside-to-outside, outside-to-inside, backwards inside-to-outside, or backwards outside-to-inside.

[wasabi]

The trick on these, though it might sound counterintuitive, is to actually deepen the first edge before changing to the second. Deepen it for a second, and you can sort of "flip" to the next edge. Also, you WILL hit a flat at somepoint during the change (it's basic geometry/physics); it just can't be held for too long.

I find them all about the same difficulty. I'd work on all 8 of them (fowards, backwards, both legs, etc.) and see what works. Also try a variety of leg positions -- you might find one of those is much easier too.

[doubletoe]

It is not true that you can't go on a flat while changing edge. You can go on a flat and you can take as long as you like to achieve the change of edge; you just need to hold the spiral position for 3 full seconds before and after the change and you need to be clearly on the other edge with a visible curve after the change. The "no movement during change of edge" just means you aren't supposed to be changing your free leg position during the change of edge or grabbing your foot to go into a catch foot or anything like that. It is perfectly fine to rotate your shoulders.
I used to do outside to inside, but once I learned inside to outside I found that it was easier to get the degree of curve after the change of edge that was needed to get credit under IJS. It seems that most skaters do inside to outside, so it might be easier for most people.
A few tips that should help (I'll assume you're doing RFI-O):
- Push out to the right a little when you push out onto the RFI edge. Keep looking at the far end of the rink from the push-off all the way until the end of your change-edge spiral.
- As you approach the end of the RFI curve (center of long axis of the rink), gently pull your left shoulder back and let the right shoulder come forward until your chest ends up facing the outside of the new circle (the left side of the rink). For a good example of this shoulder movement, watch Miki Ando's RFI-O spiral from last season on YouTube (2007 Worlds).

[Isk8NYC]

I've been working on these as well; I've found that doing serpentine figures have helped tremendously with both change-edge spirals and power pulls.

Try doing half-circles on the line, changing edge at each lobe. (I think your moves patterns have something similar - just make it smaller.)

[jskater49]

Okay, coach has decided I should wok on change edge spirals. From a recent talk by a judge about ISJ, I understand that I must not move my free leg, my arms, or visibly my body, and that there must be no flat of blade during the change. Sigh !



It is not true that you can't go on a flat while changing edge. You can go on a flat and you can take as long as you like to achieve the change of edge;

I don't know what the rulebook says, but if you get a judge that believes as the above one does, I guess it doesn't matter. That's what I find aggravating about this new system.

j

[vesperholly]

Oh, this is a helpful thread! I tried FI/FO change edge spiral last week and almost killed myself because it turned into FI/drop hands and leg/almost hit the boards because I couldn't change the edge. :giveup: I was going quite fast, though. My new program is to Clair de Lune and since I can't do spread eagles or ina bauers, I really need to make the most of spiral-type moves for program highlights.

[Mrs Redboots]

It is not true that you can't go on a flat while changing edge. You can go on a flat and you can take as long as you like to achieve the change of edge;Not according to our coaches you can't....

[SkatingOnClouds]

I definitely got the impression that no visible body movement was permitted, and the judge was really definite that there must be no flat at any stage, cos I remember thinking my face probably looked like this 8O when she said it.

[chowskates]

I don't know what the rulebook says, but if you get a judge that believes as the above one does, I guess it doesn't matter. That's what I find aggravating about this new system.

j

Is it really true that is it so subjective? If so doesn't the ISU rules need to spell it out clearer?

Anyway, I was looking at some videos from the JGP, and noticed something...

Satsuki Muramoto's freeskate, at JGP Lake Placid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QzOOQzJA6I
She starts her spiral at 3:17, and there is an obvious body movement on the change. The L4 spiral was called.

In her freeskate at JGP Sofia (same program, same spiral sequence):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQC4ez1OKbc
She starts her spiral at 3:05, and it was less movement, but you can see how she uses her arm to help with the change of edge. Here, only a L3 spiral was called.

[doubletoe]

I definitely got the impression that no visible body movement was permitted, and the judge was really definite that there must be no flat at any stage, cos I remember thinking my face probably looked like this 8O when she said it.

I think maybe there's a little confusion on the part about the "no flats." There *is* a rule that a spiral position will not count if it is on a flat instead of on an inside or outside edge, but that's in regards to a spiral position itself, not a change of edge or position. Here is the technical clarification your coach may be referring to:

Pattern of the Spiral Sequence can be any combination of curves (on edges - spiral positions on a straight line are ignored and not counted in the number of positions).

During a change of edge spiral, the two positions are an inside edge spiral and an outside edge spiral; the part where you're changing edge isn't supposed to count as a spiral position anyway, so it doesn't matter if you go on a flat during the change of edge. Here is the most recent technical clarification regarding a change-edge spiral (note that there is no reference to the flat):

A spiral position must be maintained at least 3 sec. before the change of edge and kept at least 3 sec. after the change of edge. To achieve a Feature “Change of edge in a Spiral” the skater does not need to stay full 3 seconds before and after the change without any movement, there should be no movement during the actual change of edge and no change of the basic position for 3 seconds before and after the change of edge. However for one more feature, e.g. a difficult variation, 3 sec. length of this variation is compulsory.

Here is the clarification regarding the body movement on the change of edge:
Unsupported means, no help with a “kick”, a bend of a knee, a movement of the body etc. Unsupported means to perform a change of edge or direction only with the weight of the body or with the muscles.

SkatingOnClouds, you said you feel like your shoulders are fighting your edge. I know what you mean because that's what I felt before I figured out the shoulder rotation thing. For a very visible example of the shoulder position I was talking about, check out Miki Ando's RFI-O spiral. You can really see how, for the outside edge of the spiral she has her chest facing the outside of the circle and her shoulders are lined up so that the left shoulder is almost directly above the right shoulder. This is a bit extreme, but it illustrates what I was talking about (spiral starts at 1:56)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZfttfa9yRE

When I do mine, the shoulder position is less extreme, but you can see that I push off onto the RFI edge with my shoulders practically squared, but my left shoulder starts pulling back as I approach the change of edge so that my chest is facing the outside of the circle for the outside edge of the spiral. This is not a really "visible" change, but you will feel it when you do it and it will make a difference. Here's mine (starting at 2:08)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-emt-qFV5U

[Thin-Ice]

Doubletoe, I hope you don't mind a personal question: how tall are you? You have such wonderful long lines! I'm wondering if that's because you are a tall, slender woman (there's no denying you're slender!) or if it's an illusion because of the way you carry yourself. (I always thought Nancy Kerrigan was tall until I saw her in person.. and realized she's about 5' 3" tall. Of course, I kept seeing her standing next to Kristi Yamaguchi who is about 4' 10".... so maybe that's why I thought she was tall!)

[SkatingOnClouds]

Wow, thanks for posting those links DOubletoe. Somehow I expected you to look completely different, it's good to 'meet' you!

I see what you mean, both videos show quite an open chest position, which allows a subtle movement on the change of edge. I will have a go tomorrow night (ice conditions permitting) and let y'all know if I was able to make an improvement.

[doubletoe]

Wow, thanks for posting those links DOubletoe. Somehow I expected you to look completely different, it's good to 'meet' you!

I see what you mean, both videos show quite an open chest position, which allows a subtle movement on the change of edge. I will have a go tomorrow night (ice conditions permitting) and let y'all know if I was able to make an improvement.

Ooh, how intriguing. . . How had you envisioned me? (I won't be offended if you say "younger" LOL!).
And have fun with the COE spiral! Keep us all abreast of your progress! :D

Doubletoe, I hope you don't mind a personal question: how tall are you? You have such wonderful long lines! I'm wondering if that's because you are a tall, slender woman (there's no denying you're slender!) or if it's an illusion because of the way you carry yourself. (I always thought Nancy Kerrigan was tall until I saw her in person.. and realized she's about 5' 3" tall. Of course, I kept seeing her standing next to Kristi Yamaguchi who is about 4' 10".... so maybe that's why I thought she was tall!)

Aww, thank you. . . I am 5'5-1/2" so I'm probably a couple of inches taller than the average skater, but I think over-the-boot tights are also a nice trick for making legs look a little longer than they really are. ;)

[Thin-Ice]

(snip) Aww, thank you. . . I am 5'5-1/2" so I'm probably a couple of inches taller than the average skater, but I think over-the-boot tights are also a nice trick for making legs look a little longer than they really are. ;)

Wow! you look taller than that. I would have guessed closer to 5' 7" (or more)! You really do have a lovely long line and after looking at your video again I figured out why: you really do use your ENTIRE body: your toes are very pointed, you extend your arms AND hands and you have great posture. What an inspiration! And thanks for sharing your video with us.:)

[kayskate]

I know I hit a flat on my forward inside to outside. I can hear it and see it in the tracing. I will try to play around w reducing the length of the flat so it is not noticeable. basically, it is just a weight shift. Ann-Margreth Frei does a good job of demoing and explaining it in one of her vids. Maybe the first one.

Kay

[doubletoe]

Wow! you look taller than that. I would have guessed closer to 5' 7" (or more)! You really do have a lovely long line and after looking at your video again I figured out why: you really do use your ENTIRE body: your toes are very pointed, you extend your arms AND hands and you have great posture. What an inspiration! And thanks for sharing your video with us.:)

Wow, that made my day, Thin Ice! Some random poster (always so many experts out there in YouTube land) had commented that my posture needed work and I would look "10 times better" if I arched my back more. :roll:

[Mrs Redboots]

Husband's change-edge spiral is coming-along-nicely now, but he still flats a bit in the middle. But I think he needs to hold the outside edge (the second edge) a tad longer, or it isn't going to count.

[SkatingOnClouds]

Ooh, how intriguing. . . How had you envisioned me? (I won't be offended if you say "younger" LOL!).
And have fun with the COE spiral! Keep us all abreast of your progress! :D

I actually pictured you as older and more solidly built. You looked so much younger and slimmer than I was expecting somehow. And yes, you do have lovely lines. Sigh, I can aim higher again.

Tried the COE last night, felt I made a little progress. There is a nasty long fight though, and it kicks up snow as I struggle to get the body to follow what the foot is doing. Rome was not built in a day, and I know this will take time. I can only hope that one day I will just 'get' it.

[doubletoe]

I actually pictured you as older and more solidly built. You looked so much younger and slimmer than I was expecting somehow. And yes, you do have lovely lines. Sigh, I can aim higher again.

Tried the COE last night, felt I made a little progress. There is a nasty long fight though, and it kicks up snow as I struggle to get the body to follow what the foot is doing. Rome was not built in a day, and I know this will take time. I can only hope that one day I will just 'get' it.

Oooh, you're gooooood! LOL! :P :oops: :mrgreen: :bow:

It takes awhile to get it down, but you'll get it if you just keep doing them for a few months. The three things I always think about are (1) keeping eyes on the far end of the rink from before the RFI push off until after the change of edge, (2) pushing out to the right for the RFI spiral, and (3) starting to pull left shoulder back as I approach change of edge

[flikkitty11]

I find change of edge beilman (i dont think thats spelt right :S) is alot easier than spiral. i find that my body is easier to move when my leg is over my head. a little strange? i prefer inside to outside change of edge but usually i have to do whatever my coach puts in the program (she is determined to put level four spiral sequence in my program). anyway, just keep trying because it does take practice to get it right.

[Sessy]

what's a level 4 spiral? what does it take to get one called level 4?

[mikawendy]

what's a level 4 spiral? what does it take to get one called level 4?

See this document (http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/200708-S-levels.pdf). It's on the U.S. Figure Skating web site, but the info is pulled from an ISU document.

[doubletoe]

I find change of edge beilman (i dont think thats spelt right :S) is alot easier than spiral. i find that my body is easier to move when my leg is over my head. a little strange? i prefer inside to outside change of edge but usually i have to do whatever my coach puts in the program (she is determined to put level four spiral sequence in my program). anyway, just keep trying because it does take practice to get it right.

That's what I've heard. This season you will see a lot of girls doing the Biellmann on the first edge and holding it until after the change of edge, then letting go of the leg and going into the standard arabesque spiral position.

[SkatingOnClouds]

I was chatting with another skater yesterday who can do a COE spiral and I explained I can do COE attitude pretty easily, and she suggested I try taking the attitude COE and gradually working it down into a spiral position.

Big difference between the very upright position of an attitude compared to the body parallel to the ice position of a spiral, and it felt and looked very unattractive, like a lot of people do when first learning spirals. I said as much to her, and bless her soul, she practised with me, doing exactly the same ugly position, I'm sure that was so I wouldn't feel so bad doing it.

I think it will lead to improvement if I stick with it and gradually bring it down to the spiral position.

[vesperholly]

I got a GREAT tip from my coach today on COE spirals. I did FI to FO, and she said to keep my free leg a little out to the side in the inside edge as you transition to outside, and make the inside edge a bit flatter, otherwise you get "stuck" in the FI spiral position. I managed several decent looking FI-FO COE spirals with that tip in mind, though I still dropped the free leg a bit at the transition point - but that's just a practice issue.

[chowskates]

I got a GREAT tip from my coach today on COE spirals. I did FI to FO, and she said to keep my free leg a little out to the side in the inside edge as you transition to outside, and make the inside edge a bit flatter, otherwise you get "stuck" in the FI spiral position. I managed several decent looking FI-FO COE spirals with that tip in mind, though I still dropped the free leg a bit at the transition point - but that's just a practice issue.

I agree about the free leg to the side part on the FI edge. I would then think about moving the free leg to the other side during the change to help with the edge change.