Back crossovers question

[LilJen]

So, about 2 weeks ago I started up lessons again, and we went to work on the pre-bronze moves, which includes F & B crossovers in both directions. After stumbling around for a while on the back CW crossovers and saying, "gee, coach, I just can't do this yet, 'cause it hurts too much to go on a LBO edge," coach said, eh, I didn't need to do this and could use LBI edge. She also remarked that I was trying to hard to force a lean into the circle.

Her explanation of how to do the BXOs: most of the weight should be on the outside foot (right in this case, and inside edge there). The left can kind of just "scull" in--so that this move is almost like alternating half-swizzles but crossing under/pulling with the inside foot. However, I went back to the moves diagram, and it's pretty clear that the inside foot is supposed to be on an outside edge, as I had thought and was trying to do.

Any of you heard about doing BXOs like this? I couldn't find anything in older threads that addressed this. And I can't remember all the differences between crosscuts/crossovers(unders)/cutbacks etc.

[flippet]

I'm a little confused on precisely what you're asking--and precisely what moves you're doing, as I've never tested or competed.

However--if you're just speaking of back crossovers in general, and not a very specific "move", then yes, your coach's explanation is exactly right.

These are often called 'advanced' crossovers, since back crossovers are often originally taught with the 'pick up the outer foot and cross it over' method. (The primary purpose is to teach the proper weight shift, along with 'crossing over'.)

But if you watch advanced skaters, they should all be doing these 'cross-unders'. There is still a subtle weight shift, but the primary motion is simply "grabbing and shoving" the ice with your inner foot. Reach into the circle, 'grab' the ice (you'll be using your inside edge at that moment), and 'shove' it underneath your body until the leg is well-crossed underneath you. (At that point, your inside leg will be on an outside edge--or actually, completely off the ice, as you've "thrown" the ice, in preparation to reach back inside the circle for more.) The outer leg doesn't even have to leave the ice at all, although most people I've watched do lift it just slightly when shifting their weight.

[doubletoe]

Your coach and Flippet are right. Don't take the diagram too literally; just keep the outside foot (right) on a BI edge; the inside foot (left) will end up on a BO edge by the end of each stroke, so it will take care of itself. Keep your weight over the outside hip by leaning your torso just slightly outside the circle. Stay on deeply bent knees with a wide stance at all times and reach into the circle with the inside foot (left) to grab ice and pull. Slide or slightly lift the outside foot (right) to cross over and then push. This is how I was instructed to do the back crossover power circles for the Adult Gold & standard track Intermediate tests.

[miraclegro]

I know that i help teach ISI and in the lower levels (Beta) they want to see the outside foot physicall cross OVER the inside foot, and then as the students advance to higher levels, you see the other that your coach described. But i am teaching my students to find that outside edge on the gliding foot and holding the edge with one leg just in front of the other to hold that edge and feel that glide and then cross over. They seem to have so much trouble getting that inside foot to roll over to the outside edge.

HOpe this didn't confuse your more. Remember also where your arms should be!

[Rusty Blades]

But if you watch advanced skaters, they should all be doing these 'cross-unders'. There is still a subtle weight shift, but the primary motion is simply "grabbing and shoving" the ice with your inner foot.

EXACTLY!

I struggled with back cross-overs for nearly six months and I just COULDN'T get them. My forward cross-overs are excellent and my coach raves about them but backward was hopeless. I finally figured out what I was doing different but the BXOs were still weak and wobbly. I happened to watch a Gold level competition on DVD and noticed what the "advanced skaters" were doing - exactly what you said.

I mentioned it to my coach (who couldn't figure out what was wrong with the BXOs) and she said that was actually the preferred method of doing back cross-overs because it is more powerful but they usually teach the "step over" method first because new skaters don't have the leg strength to do the other type. She suggested I try it, which I did, and it worked like gang busters first time! She no longer bugs me about BXO's - I've got them :mrgreen: I just find it SO much easier than the other way.

[flippet]

but they usually teach the "step over" method first because new skaters don't have the leg strength to do the other type.

You know what I find too, is that they're more stable this way. The weight shift is so slight, and if you're sitting firmly into your hip, and hugging your circle well, there's much less chance of you tripping yourself up and falling all over the place. It seems to me that for adults especially, they should just teach the advanced method--we can usually understand the physics behind it (where kids might not), and I don't see any need for an adult to go tottering around, bobbing and twisting, just to lift that foot up and over, at least in most cases. :giveup:

[double3s]

You know what I find too, is that they're more stable this way. The weight shift is so slight, and if you're sitting firmly into your hip, and hugging your circle well, there's much less chance of you tripping yourself up and falling all over the place. It seems to me that for adults especially, they should just teach the advanced method--we can usually understand the physics behind it (where kids might not), and I don't see any need for an adult to go tottering around, bobbing and twisting, just to lift that foot up and over, at least in most cases. :giveup:

The purpose of teaching them the "pick up the foot and cross" method is that you *must* be on a proper BO edge in order to execute it. If you teach cross cut method directly, then the worry is that people won't develop really secure BO edges.

[Isk8NYC]

The purpose of teaching them the "pick up the foot and cross" method is that you *must* be on a proper BO edge in order to execute it. If you teach cross cut method directly, then the worry is that people won't develop really secure BO edges.
ITA - When I teach USFSA, I use the ISI pick-up-crossovers as a training drill. There are many skaters with scratchy back crossovers that improve as a result - it teaches the weight shifts very effectively as well.

Just to stick my 2¢ in, back crossovers have three pushes:

1) The outside foot does a "c-cut" (one foot swizzle) before it is drawn across; (I teach this as "Draw a question mark")
2) As your outside foot comes to the inside, the inside foot will push with its outside edge before being lifted and held in the cross position; ("Underpush/Stretch and point")
3) The "recovery" of the inside foot is placed INSIDE the skating circle to "push under" as the outside foot is drawn across again. ("Reach inside and push it under again.")

#3 is initially a flat or inside edge but as you build up speed, using the outside edge becomes easier to find and keep.

Leaning is like riding a bicycle around a curve: the more you lean, the faster you can go.

[aussieskater]

Reach into the circle, 'grab' the ice (you'll be using your inside edge at that moment)

I, too, have seen elite skaters doing bxo's exactly as described, and it looks like a really effective way to get speed. However, my coach is at me when I do bxo's with the inside foot on an inside edge "reaching" for the inside ice. (I'm learning dance, rather than freeskating.) The way he's teaching these is much more as Isk8NYC describes (if I can ever work out how to quote more than one post in a reply, I'd quote it), except that there is no BI edge on the inside foot at all.

He insists that the feet start together, I push out with the outside foot (on a BI edge), and the other (inside) foot remains at all times on the BO edge drawing the circle. Then, keeping the inside foot on its BO edge at all times, I'm supposed to pull the inside foot under and behind the outside foot as Flippet described (outside foot remains on the ice on its same BI edge). Then the feet return together - placing inside foot on the ice on a BO edge - before repeating the process. The theory is that this way I get two pushes per bxo, not one, and the circle remains a circle not lopsided.

Is this difference something to do with dance, and free skaters have a different way of doing bxo's?

[Sessy]

LilJen, I have. What she means is that you step out into the back XO's, while PUSHING with the outside foot. So for counter-clockwise back xo's, you'd be pushing with the left foot (not really putting the weight on it, but REALLY pushing under a steep angle) where as the right foot is bent to almost 90 degrees and steps out to your right every time. You really step out VERY far to the right, to the point that this entirely stretches out your left leg as you step to your right (and the left leg is pushing off doing this).
THEN you get even more push after your left leg is all stretched out by flipping from the inside edge to the outside edge of your right skate and pushing with the outside edge underneath your left leg (which smoothly crosses over, sliding into place).
For clockwise, left and right are reversed.

Check out this hockeyer doing crossovers, you'll see he's on an inside edge as well:
http://www.laurastamm.net/article/pictures/bcrossover3.jpg
http://www.laurastamm.net/article/pictures/fcrossover2.jpg

[flippet]

The purpose of teaching them the "pick up the foot and cross" method is that you *must* be on a proper BO edge in order to execute it. If you teach cross cut method directly, then the worry is that people won't develop really secure BO edges.


Ah. I guess I never really had that issue, at least not with back crossovers. My security on back edges came from doing *surprise* back edges. Back edges on a line, back edges on back 3-turns on a line...that sort of thing. I had absolutely no problem flipping from an inside edge to an outside edge with the 'grab and pull' method of back crossovers. In fact, I think I could feel the back outside edge better, because my outside foot was still on the ice, giving me stability. I wasn't all twisted up, hopping around, with my knees straight, because that's what happens when you "cross over"...you pop up and down in the knees like crazy. Also, you can do a 'grab and pull' slowly and methodically, but still get smooth motion out of it. If you're 'crossing over', you're probably popping up in the knees, twisting your feet as well, and have no directional momentum whatsoever, no matter how slow. At least when you're first learning it.

This is just in my experience.

[dbny]

According to Charlie Butler in Physics on Ice, Vol. 1, there are two pushes in every BXO, and I teach this as soon as my students start to feel confident on them.

One push is the "pull under", but the other push is not a "c" push or half swizzle in an advanced BXO. Instead, it is an "explosion" of the under foot from the crossed position, back to the inside of the circle. When that foot initially takes the ice, it is on a slight BI edge, but weight shifts almost immediately to get the BO under push. The "explosion" push actually takes place on one foot only, with the under foot off the ice on its way to the inside of the circle. This is almost a sideways jump, and Charlie shows an exercise for it, in which you stand still, lift (what would be the under foot), holding it at the heel of the skating foot, and then propel yourself sideways, causing a skid on the "landing/under" foot, with the propelling foot still on the ice.

Doing the "outside of the circle" push this way eliminates that wobbly hips back and forth movement that you get with the "c" push or B half swizzle, and generates much more power.

[Rusty Blades]

.... that's what happens when you "cross over"...you pop up and down in the knees like crazy. Also, you can do a 'grab and pull' slowly and methodically, but still get smooth motion out of it...

Something doesn't seem right here? My FXOs are really strong, I can do them in super slow motion, and I don't come up in the knees at all (I know, I studied all this while I was trying to figure out why my BXOs weren't happening!)

What I was doing on my FXOs (and not on my BXOs) was .... if I can explain this in words for a CCW circle.

.. starting with the left (inside) foot carrying the weight,
.. the right foot crosses over the left to the inside of the circle
.. as the right foot crosses, the left foot starts dropping back
.. by the time the right foot touches the ice, the left foot is behind by nearly foot (12") and the toe has started to turn out for the "under push"
.. the left foot comes off the ice, across behind the right to the inside of the circle and reaches in for the LFO edge

(What was missing on my BXOs was not letting the skating foot fall behind during the cross - therefore I couldn't get my outside foot into the circle.)

Did that make sense?

[flippet]

Originally Posted by flippet http://www.skatingforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?p=340749#post340749)
.... that's what happens when you "cross over"...you pop up and down in the knees like crazy. Also, you can do a 'grab and pull' slowly and methodically, but still get smooth motion out of it...
Something doesn't seem right here?I wasn't speaking in regard to you, per se, as to *beginners*. I've seen beginners totter around like crazy, trying to lift that foot. It's scary.


...oh, nevermind. I'm obviously not making myself clear.

[icedancer2]

Is this difference something to do with dance, and free skaters have a different way of doing bxo's?

Yes, ice dancers have a different way of doing back cross-overs than freestylers - the body posture is more erect and there is much less "scoop and pull" with the inside foot than has been described here.

Believe me, I have learned every way possible to do a back-crossover, although I was never taught the "pick up and place over" method. There are a lot better wayas to teach BO edges than this I think (figures, edges, dance, etc.).

[Sessy]

I was taught them from a backwards chasse. I think that works well too to teach edges.

[LilJen]

Thanks, everyone, for your comments. I really, really don't consider myself at all 'advanced" and i remember doing preliminary exercises as we worked into BXOs---following the outside edge on a circle (of what would be the inside foot), doing half-swizzles on the circle (again, with the inside foot on an outside edge). I sure as heck can get going fast, though (too fast) doing the cross-under type deal as described. Now to get some, uh, control over them. . . (assuming my stupid ankle pain gets under control--off to see the dr on Monday!)

[Sessy]

Ohhh good luck with the ankle LilJen, at the doc's!

I actually did a little hop on mine yesterday. Only up - down on the other ankle of course but still... :mrgreen: