spinner questions

[littlekateskate]

I have been thinking of getting my daughter a spinner. She is constantly trying to spin in socks on the carpet. Are they really good for you or can they cause more problems. She is only Beta level so not really serious yet. But is it worth it. Is it something she could use on her own at home, or would she need to be supervised by her coach?

[Morgail]

My mom bought me one (the molded plastic kind) when I was about 12. I still have it. It didn't really help me much with spinning on ice. However, I had lots of fun playing on it as a kid. My mom got her money's worth, I think, b/c it did keep me entertained and out of her hair:)

I never used it with a coach, so I can't speak to that. I doubt it would ruin any on-ice spin technique, though.

I tried the spinner again a few months ago, and all it did was make me get dizzy and fall off! It's hard to simulate actually being on ice, since you can't do any sort of wind-up entry with it.

I've heard of people using them for jumps, like salchows, but I've not been brave enough to try that on mine.

[sk8tmum]

DD and DS both use our spinner. When we asked about getting it, our coach indicated that it might or might not be useful, as it depends on the skater - i.e. it isn't effective with everyone. However, since they have begun using it, there has been a significant improvement in their spins. We were told that it wouldn't get you up to lots more revolutions, but, would help in getting balance for different positions.

But, I also know other skaters who don't find it useful.

We had a plastic one years ago, and neither found it useful - but, again, I know other skaters who swear by them. The one we have is the metal one, and we use it in the basement where there is a large area and a well-padded floor. It wasn't that expensive, compared to the cost of ice and a spin lesson, and we've been pleased with the result.

I have seen some skaters using it to practice salchows etc as well; we haven't tried that - !

[Query]

FWIIW, I've tried two:

This plastic single-piece one

http://www.rainbosports.com/shop/site/product.cfm/id/4AC584A1-475A-BAC0-501FDB10BFB76925

and this one with rotating bearings

http://www.rainbosports.com/shop/site/product.cfm/id/3132E5B4-D610-7E99-D0DFD31E29D47687

I have a lot of trouble spinning. I travel without realizing it - except sometimes when I try to twizzle (i.e., spin while traveling).

Neither worked well from me. The problem is they are extremely and primarily sensitive to where you place your foot on the spinner, which has no equivalent in on-ice spins.

Perhaps they could be taped to the bottom of a shoe or sock, to eliminate this problem. I think that would be awkward, especially with the second spinner.

Better practice for me seems to be to spin in socks on a slippery floor. Honestly, for me personally the best way to learn to spin on ice is to practice spinning on ice.

Something else that has helped me: Balancing my skates/blades. I believe the blade should go straight underneath the foot's principle arch, which goes from about the center of the heel to (for me) somewhere between the big toe and the second toe. I also want the leg supporting my weight straight up and down. And in this position the blade should be mounted so as to itself be precisely vertical at that position. (Of course you may want to edge the blade a bit for some spins.) In my case this places me out of balance with an unmodified boot, because one side of both feet has very little contact with the insole, which forces me to use muscles to stay in balance. Many boot fitters offset the blade to one side to help you balance without muscles, but that made my feet very sore - feet aren't made to support weight that way (and also aren't designed to spin on a point too far offset from that line) - and also adversely affected my spin balance. My solution, outlined in

http://www.geocities.com/grunes/falling.html#bootmod

is to modify the insole with first aid tape so that pressure is equalized under the entire foot, in effect creating my own orthotic. That eliminated that problem, and also helped my forwards/backwards balance. Experiment for yourself.

Some people claim it is much easier to spin on one foot than the other. I suspect that this is mostly determined by how well their foot profile fits the insole when it lies on the bottom of the boot, and that you can change this by modifying the insoles as described. Experiment.

Various coaches have given me very different instructions on how one should initiate spins, and where to balance. The theory I think blade designers expect is that the sweet spot - the point where the blade curve is discontinuous - is mounted directly along-side the ball of the foot - the bulge on the bottom of your foot behind your big toe, and that you will spin on the blade at that point. (Some say you should spin directly on the ball, but that means you are supporting your weight on the edge of the foot, and want the skate blade mounted under that, which tends to hurt.) Experiment.

My sometimes coach Barbara has given me the advice that comes closest to working for me: Start a 3 turn, but tighten up the curve after the turn, so that you skate around a circle that is bisected by the initial leg of the turn. If I do a 3 turn, then start to spin, I tend to travel more. But this may not work the same for everyone. The usual advice is also that you should look straight ahead, but my balance may be better if I look into the turn. I also like wrapping my outside arm around the front, and my inside around the back of my body, but, again, this sort of thing varies a lot by person. Experiment.

I like to be mostly relaxed. Many people are told the exact opposite, that they should have tension throughout their bodies. I know someone who just had a very severe muscle strain while spinning, because they use so much tension. This person's solution is to strengthen her muscles further, so she can use more tension without damage. My coach says I should use a little more tension too. Again, experiment for yourself.

I think you should experiment a lot to see what works for you, and also talk it over with a good coach. Your coach can figure out when you are doing weird things you don't realize.

And note very carefully: I have not been very successfully at this. So maybe what I'm saying is all wet.

[littlerain]

there have been a few threads about this in the past, but the general consensus has been that it has not worked for many people. some people say it helped with back spins, and some have also said it did wonders for their spins! I think you can find the threads if you search "spinners" or "Spin trainers"
:)

[Sessy]

I have a spinner and it's helped tons. It doesn't nearly give the effect of training on ice though. But then I don't have ice for a minimum of 4 months a year (more if I don't crawl out of my skin to get some) so a spin trainer is a really good thing to have... If I'd have ice all year at convenient times I probably wouldn't use it.
The best result is on backspins. There the effect approaches that of training on ice.


Another thing I don't hear anybody about but, you can practice back and forward 3-turns on them, and checking.

[flippet]

Honestly, for me personally the best way to learn to spin on ice is to practice spinning on ice.


Ditto.

However, that said, I do have a spin trainer (the metal kind with bearings), and it was a whole lot of fun. Did it help my on-ice spins? Probably not much, if at all. But it was something to do, and it did help my positioning a bit. It really helped me *think* about where my body was in space.

Spin trainers are really, *really* touchy. If you're not positioned exactly right, they will fling you off like a bull at the rodeo. I'm not kidding. Wearing a helmet while using one wouldn't go amiss, LOL! :lol:

I think that part of the 'problem' with spin trainers is that people tend to use them in their bare feet/tights/socks, and that is NOT the same position you're in when you're wearing skates! I had a great pair of extremely soft and soft-soled slightly dressy shoes that had a flat, square heel on them nearly the same height as my skate boots, and that's what I wore when using the spin trainer. It put my weight in the right place to get a proper feel for an on-ice spin.



Bottom line, I agree, they really only "work" for some people. But they're not really detrimental, and if you don't mind the slight expense, it might save your daughter's socks, LOL! :lol:

[desabelle]

I couldn't live without my skate spinner, it doesn't really help with spin entry at all but your body has to be absolutely *perfectly* aligned to stay on the same spot, and get more then five revolution.

Combine that with practicing on ice and it helped me tons with all the basic positions.

It is also really great for salchow take offs, although I would use in on carpet in that case. Haha, just trust me on that one.

[Sessy]

I just started really slowly on the spin trainer, slowly speeding up the pushoff and thus the rotational force.

[deannathegeek]

I'm seriously considering getting a spin trainer to help me with my spins. My entry's not the problem-it's finding my balance and keeping it. I think a spinner might help me in that department, especially if I work in front of a mirror where I can see what I'm doing right or wrong. I'm looking at 3 different types of spinners on the Rainbo Sports website (http://www.rainbosports.com/shop/site/department.cfm/id/20EB5563-475A-BAC0-5729E5C623BF8A3C) and don't know which would be the best, or even how to use them. Any advice?

[Isk8NYC]

Deanna - I merged your thread with an older one that might help.

You could also do a Search (try advanced / search titles only) for Spinner.
That'll bring a bunch of others to light.

[slusher]

I use it in the gym to practice back 3 turns. Because we have them at the rink and I was able to use one, I found it didn't work for me with spins but they're great for turns. Stand on it, completely still, set your body and turn. It isolates the turn.

[Sessy]

Oops, I didn't see the thread got merged, no use reiterating myself.

[saras]

they're *really* good for jump-rotation work off-ice - rather than spinning. I took a clinic once where we learned all sorts of exercises to help with jumps. I haven't kept it up for a lot of reasons, but hands-down, they're probably one of the best off-ice training tools for jumping.

Yes, you should use it with shoes not barefoot.

Sara

[Sessy]

they're *really* good for jump-rotation work off-ice - rather than spinning. I took a clinic once where we learned all sorts of exercises to help with jumps. I haven't kept it up for a lot of reasons, but hands-down, they're probably one of the best off-ice training tools for jumping.

Yes, you should use it with shoes not barefoot.

Sara

Hey Saras could you explain some of the exercises? I'd love to know!

[ibreakhearts66]

i think spinners are fun to play on, but not terribly useful. also, my coach absolutely hates them because of the way you have to twist to start the spin. just not good for your body in general.

it might give your daughter an idea of what it feels like to actually spin, but there is probably a good chance she would give up (it's hard to balance). i find it just as useful (and fun!) to spin in socks on the floor, IMHO

[Award]

If you haven't got that much ice time, then I guess a spin trainer could help. But it's not the same as the real thing, with boots and blades on your feet - on the ice. Although, it can definitely improve your balance, that's for sure, and that can translate to better spins on the ice. It's much more fun to practice spins on the ice though. And if you're not well centered, then the coach should be able to help sort that out.....and constant practice is important. Also can help to watch yourself on video to see just what your body positioning is like during the spin. I also think that spin trainers can be a bit dangerous if the person doesn't know how to use it very well.

[smelltheice]

I have to admit that I have never used one but I have found that a wood laminate floor is great for spinning. Just find a pair of socks that spin well on the floor and go for it. It is the closest to on-ice spins I have found. Granted you will wear socks out but if it works to improve your spins........

[deannathegeek]

I couldn't live without my skate spinner, it doesn't really help with spin entry at all but your body has to be absolutely *perfectly* aligned to stay on the same spot, and get more then five revolution.

Combine that with practicing on ice and it helped me tons with all the basic positions.

It is also really great for salchow take offs, although I would use in on carpet in that case. Haha, just trust me on that one.

What kind of spinner do you have?

[Skate@Delaware]

I use it in the gym to practice back 3 turns. Because we have them at the rink and I was able to use one, I found it didn't work for me with spins but they're great for turns. Stand on it, completely still, set your body and turn. It isolates the turn.
I should try this, since I can't skate until may.

I have one with the bearings and I learned quickly DON'T USE A LOT OF PUSH!!!! Or you will fly off!

It helped me with my backspin and a scratch spin on my other foot. It did NOT help me with my scratch spin (but I have other issues that affected that spin so maybe it would have).

Wear sneakers. You can't use it barefoot. You also have to raise up a bit on the ball of your foot (as you normally would in spinning). Your whole body has to be in the normal spin posture and then some, tension in shoulders through hips, etc......

[saras]

Hey Saras could you explain some of the exercises? I'd love to know!


I'm not sure I can do them justice - the guy I took the clinic from (Tommy Litz) basically broke down his jump technique and isolated pieces of it - and then you do the spinner stuff in those positions. Something like this:

*"pony" position - kind of like your starting position if you're doing a backspin from a RFI 3 entrance - your L foot is in front of you to the side a bit - with your toe on the ground but not weight bearing. Like a pony pawing at the ground with that foot.... THat's your starting position for any exercise.

*"Sloppy tea" - L leg is in air - half bent - like if you had a cup of tea on your knee it'd be slopping out of the cup. That's in-air position before you snap your legs closed. Spin like that.

*"Bumble bee" - term for the snapped close in-air position, backspin position. You scooch your R hip forward and R shoulder back while your feet go into the backspin position.

*then - he broke down how to use the above for loops, toe-loops, flips, etc.

I don't recommend going too far without help from a real live person. It's too hard to really describe this in print!

Sara

[Sessy]

okay thanks! :)

[CanAmSk8ter]

As long as you realize that it may or may not help her, get your daughter the spinner. I was one of those who found it useless for spins, but I got a little out of it when I started working on a backspin. What it really helped me with was brackets when I was working on my Intermediate moves.

However, I would see what your daughter's coach thinks before getting it for her. Personally, I prefer that my students not start working with spinners until we've done a fair amount of work on spinning on the ice. Because most people find the spinner pretty different than spinning on skates, I worry about someone working a lot with the spinner and developing habits that don't translate to the ice. Better to really get the hang of spinning on the ice and use the spinner to supplement that, IMO.

[Award]

Right. And spinners can be dangerous for people that don't use them much, or haven't used them at all before. Like, unless you have some special setup, falling on a spinner (itself), or falling off a spinner can be nasty.

[Kristin]

I bought one of the ball-bearing spinners a long time ago because I had trouble learning how to spin. After about a week, I gave the spinner to one of my friends because I couldn't stand it. In my experience, it didn't translate well on the ice.

The thing people don't realize is that it isn't the "spinning" itself that is difficult. It is the "set up" and "going into the spin" that is the hardest to learn. Once you master the spin set up, the spin happens automatically.

[deannathegeek]

The thing people don't realize is that it isn't the "spinning" itself that is difficult. It is the "set up" and "going into the spin" that is the hardest to learn. Once you master the spin set up, the spin happens automatically.

My problem is the opposite-my teacher says I have a great entry into my spns, but that I wobble too much while I'm spinning-I end up leaning too far forward or just not holding myself right. I'm hoping a spinner will help me with my spinning position, but I'm still not sure which one to get. I was thinking about getting one of the ones from the Rainbo Sports website, but can't afford to go off half-cocked. I was hoping someone here could point out which of the three listed would be the best to start with.

[Award]

The thing people don't realize is that it isn't the "spinning" itself that is difficult. It is the "set up" and "going into the spin" that is the hardest to learn. Once you master the spin set up, the spin happens automatically.

I agree that spinning is not that difficult. Although, to get a long, fast, and centered spin is not always easy for people that are learning this. A spinner can potentially help someone work out their body positioning and posture during a spin. But, a potential problem with a spinner is that it spins on its own axis, and so it could be a bit hard to simulate getting the virtual skate sweet spot on that axis. But at the same time, a real spin begins with the skate describing circles before it homes in on smaller and smaller circles. But if you can get into a spin on a spinner, it can still help in some ways.

[Query]

Like I suggested earlier, be sure to buy one in the store, not mail order. You want one that spins smoothly, effortlessly and evenly, with or without your weight on it. The majority of units sold by the major brand have bad bearings, with a lot of friction, or points where they tend to stop. Some won't spin without a lot of weight on them, a sign of a very poorly made bearing. (The instructions say you need weight, trying to make you think bad bearings are OK).

The latest model, the circular one, looks like it just may be slightly easier to maintain then the earlier square one, because there may be a way to take it apart and clean and grease the bearings. (Neither one has sealed bearings, so they will get dirty rather quickly. Bad design for something that rests on the floor, near dust.) With the square one, you will have to work on it indirectly.

---------------------

Here are suggestions for maintenance, assuming you can't take it apart, after the bearings get dirty and have trouble turning, based on advice from mechanics, but not on personal experience:

1. Use an automotive brake cleaner that says "leaves no residue", and that has a little straw like thing, so you can reach the bearings. (Some people use WD-40, or other light oil, but it leaves a residue that may cause bearings to slip instead of spin.) In a very well ventilated place (outdoors?), spray it on the bearings till the grease and dirt are gone. It may help to try to press a clean cloth against the little metal balls to scrape off the gunk, and re-spray. Let dry a few hours.

2. Use an automotive grease with that same type of straw (preferably white lithium grease, but use what you can find), spray some grease onto the bearings, and spin it a while to spread the grease. Repeat, if you don't see much grease.

3. Keep the unit sealed in a clean food container or zip lock bag when not in use, to reduce dust.

Hope you enjoy being dizzy.

[Mrs Redboots]

What it really helped me with was brackets when I was working on my Intermediate moves.
I've always found them helpful for turns. I must see if I can find mine, and get it out to work on my rocker/bracket combination and also on my back 3s. Which are more like back 2 1/2s right now, but might improve. One day.