Two-footing take-off on flip

[antmanb]

No what matter i do I cannot seem to shake off this awful habbit i have of two-footing the take-off on my flip.

The tracing i leave on the ice is the same as the salchow but with a toe pick graze above and to the right of the take-off point which clearly shows the LBI looping around the take off point like this:

/
/
( x
\
\_

But rounder!!

New coach thinks that i'm leaving all of my weight on the skating (left) foot which is why i'm effectively jumping off the left foot.

We've been working on me lifting the left leg as soon as i have planted the right toe pick. This has had mixed results - my muscle memory is so ingrained that i still draw the left skate back to the pick-in point. When i do lift my left skate off the ice as soon as i pick, a feel like my weight is squarely in between both legs and there isn't anything to jump off on the right leg.

I think that i need to keep most if not all of my weight on the picking foot but I just can't seem to to get my weight back there in the time i have to do it.

Does anyone have any pointers?

I enter this jump from a LFI mohawk by the way.

Ant

[renatele]

Ah, I have the same exact problem, and have been given various drills to work on. Some people may not agree with them, claiming that I was taught prerotation, so it's up to you :)

First of all, I am to do gazillions of times drill at the boards - stand on LBI (if jumping ccw), with boards to your right. Pick in, transfer the weight to the right pick, and sort of pivot on it about 90 degrees (or rather, turn the right hip in), shoulders still firmly checked to the right. At this point left foot should end up being crossed over the right one. Do just this transfer/hip turn-in, and eventually can try jumping off the toepick and doing full revolution.

Try the drill as a full jump from complete standstill, away from the boards. Don't put too much power into your mohawk, you want to be able to feel each stage.

If you are comfortable with doing loops, you can also try setting up for flip (again, without much speed into it), but then after pick-in, put the whole right blade down, and do what essentially is a loop. It's very similar to the boards drill, but personally I freak out less on this one.

[Evelina]

I have exactly the same problem sometimes, and I take off from a 3 turn. My coach told me to hold the back inside edge a little longer, bend the knee in my skating leg more and really think about stretching back when I pick. Not sure this helps at all but it seems to have helped me a fair bit.

[antmanb]

Ah, I have the same exact problem, and have been given various drills to work on. Some people may not agree with them, claiming that I was taught prerotation, so it's up to you :)

First of all, I am to do gazillions of times drill at the boards - stand on LBI (if jumping ccw), with boards to your right. Pick in, transfer the weight to the right pick, and sort of pivot on it about 90 degrees (or rather, turn the right hip in), shoulders still firmly checked to the right. At this point left foot should end up being crossed over the right one. Do just this transfer/hip turn-in, and eventually can try jumping off the toepick and doing full revolution.

Try the drill as a full jump from complete standstill, away from the boards. Don't put too much power into your mohawk, you want to be able to feel each stage.

If you are comfortable with doing loops, you can also try setting up for flip (again, without much speed into it), but then after pick-in, put the whole right blade down, and do what essentially is a loop. It's very similar to the boards drill, but personally I freak out less on this one.

My loop's not all that happy at the moment either!! BUt thanks for the drills i will practice the one by the boards - i think i need to teach my muscles a new way to try this jump and i just always seem to default to the two footing!

Thanks
Ant

[Sessy]

Well I started doing that after I fractured my right ankle, but what our teacher had me do was uhm, well flip takeoffs without the rotation. As in, 3-turn, check (and stay checked!), pick, jump off the pick UP, then land, like a LOT of times, until the new, correct takeoff routine becomes the dominant one in your brain.
It's quite easy to add the rotation afterwards cuz you already had the rotation, your body knows how to do that - it's just gotta learn how to take off. Concentrating on checking and picking is really good that way.

[chowskates]

New coach thinks that i'm leaving all of my weight on the skating (left) foot which is why i'm effectively jumping off the left foot.

We've been working on me lifting the left leg as soon as i have planted the right toe pick. This has had mixed results - my muscle memory is so ingrained that i still draw the left skate back to the pick-in point. When i do lift my left skate off the ice as soon as i pick, a feel like my weight is squarely in between both legs and there isn't anything to jump off on the right leg.

I think that i need to keep most if not all of my weight on the picking foot but I just can't seem to to get my weight back there in the time i have to do it.

Does anyone have any pointers?

I enter this jump from a LFI mohawk by the way.

Ant

Hi Ant,

Sounds like you're using the pick as a pivot. I have a student (actually my coach's student, whom I'm teaching while he went on long vacation) who did exactly that. Drills like what renatele and sessy described would help. Also, you might want to check how you put the pick in - the pick should be straight behind you, instead of to the side.

In reality, you do want to draw the left skate back, but not around. The rotation should start the moment the left skate leaves the ice, so it is not solely a matter of picking up your left foot as soon as the pick hits the ice, though that would be the eventual result.

What I had this student do was
- from standstill, reach back with R pick, pull L foot straight towards the pick, jump UP and land without rotating.
- later I would have her release the check when jumping up, but not trying to rotate. She would naturally have 1/4 to 1/2 rev rotation.
- lastly, try the full-rev jump from standstill (like renatele suggested).
So far she's still not quite fully rotating it yet, but at least the take-off looks like a flip take-off ;)

Hope this helps.

[antmanb]

Thank you all for all these drills to practice! I'm off to the rinkin 10 minutes so i will try to work some of these drills and try to un-learn my bad habbits. New coach is really encouraging though and leaves me feeling really happy with progress at the end of each session so it's a pleasure working with her!

I'll report back on the success (or lack thereof!) tomorrow!

Ant

[techskater]

It sounds more like a "toe salchow" than a pivoting problem. You need to trust the picking side to push up off it.

[slusher]

Well I started doing that after I fractured my right ankle, but what our teacher had me do was uhm, well flip takeoffs without the rotation. As in, 3-turn, check (and stay checked!), pick, jump off the pick UP, then land, like a LOT of times, until the new, correct takeoff routine becomes the dominant one in your brain.
It's quite easy to add the rotation afterwards cuz you already had the rotation, your body knows how to do that - it's just gotta learn how to take off. Concentrating on checking and picking is really good that way.

This is the drill I also have. Except, no three turn or mohawk. Skate backwards (really fast!) glide, stick in the pick and go straight up.

I can lutz but can't flip. Part of it we figured was the checking for the lutz and being so straight and because I was so round-ish on my 3 turn, we took the jump completely apart starting from this exercise. From this I went to straight back, pick half flip, landing on the picking toe kind of half flip, and then eventually we put the entrance back on. It's still sucky but at least I know where I go wrong with it.

One more thing, make sure the pick is actually sticking in the ice. I changed blades and got different pick configuration, it helped with the picking. There will be rotation on the pick from all of the body going past it, but it shouldn't slip.

[doubletoe]

Something else you might try is a same toe half flip. Go in as straight as you can (with picking foot extended straight behind you), pick with the right toe backwards, pop up and do just 1/2 turn, coming down forward on the same toepick, then pushing off onto a left forward edge. Don't forget to lift the left knee as you leave the ice, since that will help keep you over your takeoff/landing side. Also, make sure your right shoulder is staying back on takeoff, not coming around like it would on a salchow.

[blackmanskating]

Wow!!! That's a tough one. Everyone gave you good exercises to work on to fix the problem so my suggestion would be how to break the muscle memory. A good way to start is by having a different entrance for the flip. For example: if you enter your salchow from a mohawk, then enter the flip from a 3-turn to fool your body. Also, don't practice it a billion times in one session. I know that sounds crazy but this is how I fixed my lutz to be able to land my first double lutz. Practice your flip correctly 3 times and then stop. Move on to another element of skating. Come back to it the next day and do it 3 more times CORRECTLY and continue on with another element. If you are unable to do a full flip using the correct entrance then you may have to practice a half flip to get used to transferring your weight to your picking foot. Either way only do it 3 times per day and stop.(I sound like I am prescribing medicine or something LOL) Most skaters think they have to keep practicing a bad element over and over again and they only reinforce their mistakes. Give it a few weeks and you will establish new muscle memory for the flip jump. When it comes to muscle memory, I find that less is more.



BlackManSkating